There was an inciteful post in the necro folder that led to a dicussion on some of the difficulties and hurdles faced by those who main a necromancer. I'm not saying empath limitations are anywhere near the level of necro limitations, especially in social interactions, but this has led me to wonder if there was a correlary with empaths and their limitations. I have my thoughts, but I'd like to hear from other players who have played (especially mained) empaths.

So a few questions:

1. Do you consider your empath a main, alt, or mule?

2. Was this always the case, or did it change after you had played the character a while?

3. How often do you interact with the combat system on your empath? Put another way, how many empath mains have made an alt solely to hunt for their empath?

4. Do you wish that you had a way to interact with the CvC/PvP systems, spars, or tournaments?

5. What, if anything, would you (temporarily) give up to (again, temporarily) gain full combat capabilities on your empath? (ignoring for a second whether the GMs/lore could support this.)

6. Do you think absolution/constructs are enough to fill this need?

7. Do you enjoy paid quests on your empath?

8. Have you had others complain or critize your empath for hunting the same creatures as them, especially as it concerns spawn rates?

9. Do you think empaths need more combat spells or is sorcery enough?

<<There was an inciteful post in the necro folder

The "Most Hilariously Appropriate Typo" award of the year goes to you.

Aside: I also expect to be as disappointed with the lack of Empath maiming as I was with the lack of Necromancer ones. :(

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Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators

<<Did you maim your post on purpose?

http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Necromancers/General%20Discussions/view/6561

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Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators

I think the main challenge with the Empath Guild was the decision several years ago to incorporate the new Necromantic Sorcery under the umbrella of the Guild. Yes, yes, I recognize the decision at the time had to do with the desire to have an option for more advanced players who wanted a challenge, and what could be more challenging than having the option to go down the pathway of being a purely evil character after circle after circle of restrictive development of an Empath. As Armifer said at the time, there was also the lore perspective of Necromancy and Empathy being two sides of the same coin, and Necromancy being a reasonable pathway for Empaths who had defied the Guild's structures to the point that Shock left them blind to the Transference, but still knowledgeably in the arts of anatomy and Life Magic without the compound of Empathy. What was the alternative? The full on development of a new guild? Maybe, but given the complaints people have about the competing needs of regular Empaths and Necromantic Empaths, maybe it would have been better to establish a new guild.

Oh, wait, sorry, which timeline are we?

>>Derium: 1. Do you consider your empath a main, alt, or mule?

Sarkranis is one of my two main characters.


>>Derium: 2. Was this always the case, or did it change after you had played the character a while?

Sarkranis was always intended to be a serious RP character and not a mule. (I had acquired a low-level healing mule some months before and discovered that I liked the guild. I ditched the mule and created my own character.)


>>Derium: 3. How often do you interact with the combat system on your empath? Put another way, how many empath mains have made an alt solely to hunt for their empath?

I rolled Sarkranis in January 2007 with the intention of making her a combat Empath. I started hunting right out the gate, before constructs existed and before I had access to Guardian Spirit.


>>Derium: 4. Do you wish that you had a way to interact with the CvC/PvP systems, spars, or tournaments?

Although I recognize that conflict will sometimes result from my role-playing decisions, I am not that into PvP. I might be more interested if I had some shock-free options other than trying to force someone to stay at melee with my alfar warrior.


>>Derium: 5. What, if anything, would you (temporarily) give up to (again, temporarily) gain full combat capabilities on your empath? (ignoring for a second whether the GMs/lore could support this.)

Sarkranis is unwilling to sacrifice her empathy for full combat capabilities. Her ultimate goals require intact empathy.


>>Derium: 6. Do you think absolution/constructs are enough to fill this need?

Yes. Absolution is one of the best things that ever happened to the guild. It really helps, since there are gaps in the construct ladder, and most constructs aren't skinnable.


>>Derium: 7. Do you enjoy paid quests on your empath?

Although I attend Hollow Eve, I generally don't do paid quests at all. However, I had fun running Ulf'Hara with my Empath.


>>Derium: 8. Have you had others complain or critize your empath for hunting the same creatures as them, especially as it concerns spawn rates?

Only rarely. I try to be considerate of other hunters. My kill rate is actually decent if I am not just hunting the living with Guardian Spirit.


>>Derium: 9. Do you think empaths need more combat spells or is sorcery enough?

I would love to see more combat spells for Empaths. Sorcerous casting of targeted magic and debilitation is less than ideal due to the higher rate of backlash (due to more frequent casting in combat).

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"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer

Empath new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Empath_new_player_guide

Empath hunting ladder: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Empath_hunting_ladde

> a frustration with how Tactics is somewhat limited.

Tactics is AMAZING, if you're lucky. Let's review what the skill does.

On demand:
1. Restore fatigue - Bob.
2. General defense debuff - Weave.
3. Clears engagement, knockdown - Shove.
4. Balance debuff - Circle.

RNG:
1. Armor debuff - Analyze.
2. Position debuff - Analyze.
3. Balance debuff - Analyze.
4. Increased stunn chance - Analyze.

And I'm sure there are some I'm missing. Tactics is good. The only thing missing is a benefit to lore primes (maybe less RNG with analyze) and the ability for empaths to use it effectively (non-damaging combos).

>>Unfortunately, I've found I've rare had opportunity to use it. Most people hunt safely, and there's not much of a purpose to bringing in people who are vastly underqualified to hunt in a given area. I feel like HoH is a great ability and works as intended, but it's just sort of unfortunate that DR isn't really set up to support it.

I agree. The Hodierna link wasn't the dawn of a new age of group combat healing as I thought it would be. That said, I've had fun with it recently with a hunting partner. I've had to find those fellow adventurers that like to go "off script" with their hunting and take on a challenge. Rare but fulfilling experience.

>>1. Do you consider your empath a main, alt, or mule?

Main.

>>2. Was this always the case, or did it change after you had played the character a while?

Started out as a main, but dropped to an alt when I got fed up with teaching reqs (all hail 3.0 and the death of the teaching skill). Currently the main once again.

>>3. How often do you interact with the combat system on your empath? Put another way, how many empath mains have made an alt solely to hunt for their empath?

I hunt all the time with my empath.

>>4. Do you wish that you had a way to interact with the CvC/PvP systems, spars, or tournaments?

Meh.

>>5. What, if anything, would you (temporarily) give up to (again, temporarily) gain full combat capabilities on your empath? (ignoring for a second whether the GMs/lore could support this.)

Nothing really.

>>6. Do you think absolution/constructs are enough to fill this need?

I hope for the constructs/undead ladders to get fleshed out some more, but considering the current situation is heads and tails better than just 5 years ago, I'm not complaining.

>>7. Do you enjoy paid quests on your empath?

I will bring out an alt to be a killbot on a Riot, mostly it just depends on the quest itself.

>>8. Have you had others complain or critize your empath for hunting the same creatures as them, especially as it concerns spawn rates?

Nope.

>>9. Do you think empaths need more combat spells or is sorcery enough?

Would I like some more combat options? Sure. Aoe TM/Debil cyclic hyrbrid vit/fat drain spellz. Go crazy.

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A shadowy black death spirit says, "Give us the annoying one, and the rest of you shall live."
* Mudge was just struck down!
The cackling continues. "The Darkness is pleased with your sacrifice."

1. Do you consider your empath a main, alt, or mule?
Main

2. Was this always the case, or did it change after you had played the character a while?
Aislynn's always been my main, for 18ish years, now. :)

3. How often do you interact with the combat system on your empath? Put another way, how many empath mains have made an alt solely to hunt for their empath?
I rarely interact with the combat system, unless forced to.

4. Do you wish that you had a way to interact with the CvC/PvP systems, spars, or tournaments?
I do, but not how they currently exist... I would like to support in group vs group.

5. What, if anything, would you (temporarily) give up to (again, temporarily) gain full combat capabilities on your empath? (ignoring for a second whether the GMs/lore could support this.)
Nothing. My character refuses to cause harm to another being for roleplay reasons, and temporarily being able to do so doesn't make it any less wrong.

6. Do you think absolution/constructs are enough to fill this need?
Yes (more than enough).

7. Do you enjoy paid quests on your empath?
Yes!

8. Have you had others complain or critize your empath for hunting the same creatures as them, especially as it concerns spawn rates?
Nope, cause I don't hunt often.

9. Do you think empaths need more combat spells or is sorcery enough?
I do, but not in the "cause injury" manner that most combat spells do... I really think empaths need more spells that can buff or support others in combat.

~Aislynn

First off, thank you to everyone who responded here. It really shows me how people who want to play empaths are actually playing them, and it probably matches what I would expect.

> Just a side point - I completely agree with you, and think it would be amazing if some sort of support class or option could be produced, but the way the game is built it would probably require a massive system rewrite.

I think there are ways to get this with the game as it sits. Some suggestions.

* New link ability that takes wounds in real time. If we have an empathic link, and someone would take damage, we take it instead. Give it a verb, "brace" that let's us (with RT) greatly reduce the total we receive while we're in the RT. That value is contested against stats and empathy. Give it a CD on usage. With timing, this gives empath a means of fending off boss attacks for an entire party. It would also give the empath a sense of strategy, knowing when to use it and when not to.

* More buff spells. Awaken is good. Vigor on GS is good. We should have something like a adrenaline spell that causes the target (even if just GS) to move much faster and do more damage. Our version of TM, but one that comes from amplifying the damage of another.

* Likewise a set of abilities that let us reduce or eliminate the duration of harmful status effects on others and ourselves. Burn, poison, acid, stuns, etc.. It would work like adaptive curing and be cleared after the effect is cleared.

* Non-combat buffs too. Scholarship buffs. Room wide outdoorsmanship buffs. Room wide blood staunch or heart link, maybe as an extension off the tree. Such as a self-buff heartlink that we automatically extend with touch.

* We can do more with manipulating life. A one-person cheat death, or coercing vines to trip something, or causing something's muscles to fail them (like lethargy but as a - offensive power, or dropped weapon), or granting a vampire like effect to someone.

Right now, it feels like we have one niche: healing. While it's a very important niche, it could still be so much more.

> You really did basically describe Hand of Hodierna. It's not in real time, but it's pretty damn close.

Yes, except it would be real-time, and you can execute a risk/reward cooldown to nullify the damage if you had the timing down. Bosses could start to telegraph their moves to tell you when to execute this.

> The problem is this is a rank based game.

Not all buffs have to be rank-based. Awaken, refresh, mental focus are great examples. It would be nice if we could "flood the link" with all buffs on us, effectively making empaths a totem of sorts that improves everyone they're linked to. There could even be unique utility here such as reduced RT (even if -1s on all actions to a min of 1s).

> You just described Vigor.

I was thinking more than vigor. More like +speed, maybe +agil that stacked with vigor.

> You just described Paralyze.

There's a difference in +off and an immobilize.

> Er, well, yes, Empaths are the games sole healers, but i think they're very functional outside that niche too.

Hence why I said, "a very important niche." I'm not trying to imply that this is bad or lacking. I do think it shouldn't preclude empaths from broadening out of that niche in a sensible way.

>Yes, except it would be real-time, and you can execute a risk/reward cooldown to nullify the damage if you had the timing down. Bosses could start to telegraph their moves to tell you when to execute this.

So this would be in anticipation of developing creature types that behave differently?

>Not all buffs have to be rank-based. Awaken, refresh, mental focus are great examples. It would be nice if we could "flood the link" with all buffs on us, effectively making empaths a totem of sorts that improves everyone they're linked to. There could even be unique utility here such as reduced RT (even if -1s on all actions to a min of 1s).

MeF is still rank based. I think you were going for 'binary effects'? Like, FM is not a rank based effect, other than maybe the duration of the beam as a function of the amount of mana that can be put into the spell as a function of the ranks of the caster...?

But even if Empaths can buff people they're linked to, you're still running into the issue of the Empath being in combat. The Empath either has the ranks to do this, and is basically just another combatant, or, they don't have the ranks to do this, and... what? Need to be protected by a Paladin? Need to just sit around and do nothing? The point is that COMBAT is rank based, and thus, Empaths participating in combat are subject to that system.

>I was thinking more than vigor. More like +speed, maybe +agil that stacked with vigor.

I don't understand - Vigor already buffs agility? If you want a spell/ability that reduces RT, yeah, sure, neat, that sounds like a cool ability. But you're basically just stacking +DamageOutput at that point. Why not also have a spell that increases WeaponSkill? Or WeaponStats? Or a negative barrier like HP?

>There's a difference in +off and an immobilize.

I mean, yes, there is, but Paralyze results in an increase in damage being dealt to the target, so, ultimately, Paralyze is doing exactly what you were saying.

>Hence why I said, "a very important niche." I'm not trying to imply that this is bad or lacking. I do think it shouldn't preclude empaths from broadening out of that niche in a sensible way.

I agree, but I think you're sort of unwilling to see how Empaths already are quite broadly capable outside the niche of healing. And I agree that more tools for Empaths would be a good thing, because I think Empaths are cool, but many of your suggestions often center around either 'make Empaths into non-Empaths', or describe tools already available to Empaths. Seriously though, I'd love to see Empaths expanded.

>If you mean it somehow interacts with ranks then sure, everything is rank based, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun and interesting effects that don't directly buff/debuf raw ranks.

I think we're getting off topic here, but it seems to me you both want things that buff/debuff a specific thing (re; your suggestion of an adrenalin spell, for example), but also want things that don't buff/debuff a specific thing? For example, Vigor buffs Str/Agl. That effectively increases damage output. If something was also buffing Weapon, that too would buff damage output. If someone was debuffing your targets reflex, or Evasion, or was a negative-ward, that too would buff damage output. Ultimately this is how the whole game works.

I agree, I'd like to see neat effects that do neat things. But also check out the tools available to you and how they can be used to do the things you're asking for.

>They use innocence or find a paladin? Empaths can greatly enhance their own defenses by popping innocence and setting their attack stance to 0 for the bonus defensive stance points. At this point, you're effectively building the classic RPG party. A tank to keep the mobs off the healer, a healer to keep the tank alive, and potentially damage dealers to kill things. That's not a bad thing, IF it can be made enticing in this game.

I totally agree that this is a possible scenario, though, I'll point out that Innocence is an SvS. And yeah, I'm all for group hunting, but I think it's important to recognize that because ranks are a thing, your capacity to engage with stuff significantly above you is pretty limited. And, ultimately, for general PvE training, there's no reason really to do so, unfortunately.

>The point is that we have more buffs for both our GS and our hunting parties.

I largely concur, though again, it seems like you're suggesting tools/ideas for Empaths that are basically 'let them do what Barbarians do'. I.e., you just want more buffs. I'd rather, personally, see neat new developments for Empathy, that let Empaths, with the tools they already have, do cool things to heal more/better, or kill more/better. You don't need to add spells that give Empaths, for some reason, a +Weapon Buff, or a +WeaponStat buff, or a Fire Spell. Those buffs are already in the game, and can be used with Sorcery.

>Stop. I'm not saying you are bad. I'm not saying your character is bad. I'm not saying empaths are bad. I'm saying empaths can be better. I'm suggesting a way for them to be better.

I'm not trying to be combative, but I'm pointing out that you're describing abilities that already exist for Empaths, or, already exist for other guilds and thus are available to Empaths in the form of Sorcery.

>How, exactly, does giving empaths non-agressive buffs that use an empathic link suddenly make them no longer empathic?

Well, wait - Empaths already have both 'aggressive' and 'non-aggressive' buffs that both increase damage output, and debuff targets. Empaths can already LINK to provide individual skill buffs. Empaths have both a damaging TM option, non-damaging TM option, and a combat pet. Empaths are not suffering because they natively lack a +WeaponBuff or a Fire-spell. There is room for improving upon things that Empathy does, like, say, non-shock offensive wound redirection, incoming wound redirection, more things to do with manipulate, etc.

I'm all for seeing improvements to Empathy and additional things that it can be used for. But I think you might benefit from taking a minute to look over EPedia and see what stuff is in game and what stuff is available to Empaths.

So, again though, this is a rank based game - if you're hiding behind a Paladin's shield and that's all that's keeping you alive, chances are you also cannot cast Paralyze or Lethargy on the critters that Paladin is protecting you from. That's fine - if you're hiding behind that shield and healing everyone in the group, or maintaining Vigor on everyone in the group, you're doing something. But that's not really that entertaining of a support role, since literally all you'd be doing in that case is periodically touching and taking, and healing yourself. This scenario doesn't result in the Empath training anything but Empathy and magics, and then only when wounds pop up or when you cast your spells (presumably you could also train magic in this scenario by just spamming your routine as normal)

Conversely, if you do have the ranks to handle the critter, you could just use the tools available to you. Your GS will do damage, your tactics and paralyze and lethargy will debuff. You can also heal others in this scenario.

>I like that formula, honestly, but I'd love for my group to get more benefit out of keeping me alive. :) Not just healing them, and some crowd control, but making the group function better, both as individuals fighting (there's oh, so many ways this could be done that are thematically appropriate), or as a group working together.

Agreed, and it would be great if there was more support for group hunting in this game. As it is, there's no reason NOT to group hunt, really, but there's no real reason to seek out groups whilst hunting.

>Basically, I want to improve how much damage is done to a critter, to the same degree as if I were a damage-dealing character myself

I think this is an unreasonable expectation - support characters typically forego doing the damage of any given party member in exchange for providing either a valuable function (healing, utility, cc, etc) or by providing a flat buff to the whole group, i.e., everyone deals 50% more damage, so with a group of 3 or more the group outputs more damage per person than if everyone was soloing.

>till talking about group combat specifically here, so instead of just telling me to use my guardian spirit, keep in mind that I'm looking to use ALL of the tools at my disposal... Including, and most specifically, other adventurers in my party.

I also think this is an unreasonable expectation - cyclics and rituals in this game are intentionally set so that you have to choose which one's you use (often). A Warrior Mage cannot use AC and FR, or FR and Rimefang. They cannot use AEG and MoF. That's intentional, and for the purposes of balance, a good thing. Some degree of choice in what your character does is a good thing - an Empath should not be able to maintain Regenerate AND GS, or GS and IZ, for example. You can very much make a compelling argument that some cyclics are simply not worth it (I'm looking at you AD! Or most Bard cyclics!) given the other options, so they never get used, but I think that's a slightly different argument.

More tools are great, and again, I hope Empaths get more cool tools.

> That's fine - if you're hiding behind that shield and healing everyone in the group, or maintaining Vigor on everyone in the group, you're doing something. But that's not really that entertaining of a support role, since literally all you'd be doing in that case is periodically touching and taking, and healing yourself.

... Hence why I'd like more options. :) Debilitation shouldn't be my go-to in combat. As an empath, I am (supposedly) an expert in all sorts of things biological, and even various emotional or mental tidbits (when it comes to manipulating friendship, for example). I SHOULD have more options along those lines (and using the types of skills/spells/etc that the guild has a long-standing history of being good with). I mean... Why can't I slow down specific pain responses? Or increase oxygenation in musculature, or purge lactic acid more quickly? Yes, it leads to fun and fascinating instances of people tearing muscles or spasming uncontrollably, but those are also things an empath with enough skill and experience should be able to mitigate on-the-fly. THAT is the kind of buffing I want to do. Well, that, and being able to pinpoint weaknesses better in enemies that others can't see ("See that goblin, over there? I know he doesn't show it right now, but his fifth rib on the left side was broken recently, and hasn't healed right. He'll be unable to draw a bow as well in that hand, and any direct strikes to his shield will incapacitate him, at least for a moment.").

> I think this is an unreasonable expectation - support characters typically forego doing the damage of any given party member in exchange for providing either a valuable function (healing, utility, cc, etc) or by providing a flat buff to the whole group, i.e., everyone deals 50% more damage, so with a group of 3 or more the group outputs more damage per person than if everyone was soloing.

Err. But that's what I was saying. :) Right now, I'm a hole in the team. I don't contribute as much as everyone else. I want to be able to increase the speed, strength, and recovery of my team, so that they can make up the difference. Ie, that whole 50% more damage.. thing.

> I also think this is an unreasonable expectation - cyclics and rituals in this game are intentionally set so that you have to choose which one's you use (often).

Not even sure where you went, there. I mentioned GS because that's what people seem to point me at anytime I say "Empath" and "damage" in the same sentence. I don't particularly care that it's a cyclic... Just saying don't try to pigeonhole me into using that particular spell as my only means of effecting group average dps.

~Aislynn