A very important discovery on Empathy skill experience gain :
Circle IMPACTS NEGATIVELY Empathy skill experience gain


Summary
Running some scientific tests, I discovered that the circle an Empath has achieved influences negatively how much Empathy skill experience gain an Empath will gain taking wounds.

Basically, all things being egal (wounds, stats, skills, patient, etc?), an Empath of an higher circle will learn LESS Empathy skill while transferring a given amount of wounds than an Empath of a lower circle.

The conclusion to this is that, Empathy learning wise, circling is DETRIMENTAL to us.

In the end, we have to choose between optimizing our learning in Empathy and our circling.


How did this happen?
When Dorelan was an younger Empath, he kept listening to his colleagues telling him how Empathy skill experience gain (at the time the skill was named Transference) was reduced past 30th or 35th circle? Dorelan started to wonder if there was some kind of negative influence due to circles, or if what his colleagues were noticing was only due to their increasing ranks in Empathy (thus slowing down their learning rates due to increased experience bit size of ranks).

He then decided to check that theory. For that, he didn?t circle for more than two years and he convinced his old buddy Fafrahd to die for the sake of science.

Important note: I understand, as a player, that running the following tests can be considered against policy since I had to voluntarily inflict wounds to one of my character and transfer these wounds afterwards. Point is, the purpose of running these experiments wasn?t to increase Dorelan?s Empathy skill, but to check the above theory. Nevertheless, I?m ready, as a player, to face the consequences of running these tests if they were to be considered against policy, i.e. receive a warning, face a temporary lock out, have some ranks removed from Dorelan?s experience or what have you. This said, I would find the above quite unfair given that the intent of these tests wasn?t to break DR?s policy and given what my characters invested in order to run these tests (6deaths for Fafrahd, holding back circling for more than two years for Dorelan).


The scientific approach used
Basically, Dorelan needed to transfer a fixed quantity of wounds, from the same patient, at different circles while keeping everything equal (his stats, his skills and especially the Empathy skill, the patient used as a guinea pig) and observe the experience gain earned each time. The experience gain would be measured in % of a rank gained during the process (starting at clear and waiting for the experience to be fully absorbed, i.e. being back to clear).

It was quickly identified that the Empathy rank used to run these tests wouldn?t really matter, as long as it remained the same during the whole process (to avoid having to calculate the experience bits earned in each cases to be able to compare experience gains between different ranks). The only thing that really mattered (in order to make the tests quicker to run) was to choose a rank after a wall rank in order to maximize the absorption rate of the experience gained so that it would reduce the waiting time to be back to clear while absorbing Empathy skill experience. Rank 276th was then chosen for that characteristic.

It was also identified that while taking wounds, Dorelan was to avoid reaching Mind Lock in Empathy skill in order to avoid losing Empathy experience in the process. It was then decided that every wound and scar would be taken one by one, checking Empathy learning status between every transfer, and waiting for pulses when needed.

Then Dorelan had to find a way to have the exact same amount of wounds to be taken at each test. The method used to achieve this was by creating a situation of misteleportation by using a teleport box and voluntarily blowing the trap while the right moon wasn?t up. The wounds created by this situation are shown underneath (see ? Wounds taken). Each time all the wounds were healed and all the scars were healed before the guinea pig (Fafrahd) departed. The big amount of Empathy skill gained due to the importance of the wounds would ensure that any difference would be noticeable if any was to be discovered.

Then Dorelan had to make sure that he would earn the same amount of Empathy by transferring these wounds several times all things remaining equal (that is even his circle). The point here was to make sure that there was no random factor in how much a given amount of wounds would teach him. This confirmation was achieved by tests #1 and #2 (see full results underneath) which proved that taking the fixed amount of wounds created by a misteleportation of Fafrahd would teach Dorelan 14.94 % and 14.92 % of his current 276th rank in both cases. I can?t explain the little difference that shows up here (0,02 % of a rank) that might be due to the fact that Dorelan took two wounds at the same time while healing wounds created by the second death.

Then Dorelan circled ten times in a row, from circle 34th up to circle 44th. He didn?t train any stat and moved on tests #3 and #4 to see if any differences would occur.

Then Dorelan circled eight times in a row, from circle 44th up to circle 52nd. He didn?t train any stat either and moved on tests #5 and #6 to see if any additional differences would occur.

Additional note: It is interesting to note that when circling in ?bulk?, Dorelan mind locked his Scholarship (at 192 ranks) though the skill was at clear before circling in both cases.


The results
Well, the results are pretty clear.

Tests #3 and #4 earned Dorelan a gain of 11.30 % and 11.23 % of a rank for an average of 11.27 % (rounded up). Once again I can?t explain the little difference between the two tests, especially since all wounds were carefully taken one after another. Though these gains are slightly different, they are to be compared to an average gain of 14.93 % at circle 34th which here shows a clear influence of circle.

All things being equal except Dorelan?s circle, these two tests showed a decrease of 24.51 % (relative %, not absolute % here) in Empathy skill experience gain only due to Dorelan?s circling from 34th to 44th circle.

Tests #5 and #6 earned Dorelan a gain of 9.30 % and 9.50 % of a rank (same comment as above on the slight difference observed between the two tests) for an average of 9.40 %. These gains are to be compared to an average gain of 11.27 % at circle 44th.

All things being equal except Dorelan?s circle, these two tests showed a decrease of 16.59 % (relative %, not absolute % here) in Empathy skill experience gain only due to Dorelan?s circling from 44th to 52nd circle and a decrease of 37.04 % from 34th to 52nd circle.


Conclusion
The conclusion of these tests is that circle factors in Empathy skill experience gain in a NEGATIVE way. The same wounds, taken from the same patient, by the same Empath, with the same stats, at the same Empathy skill rank will teach an higher Empath less than a lower Empath, circle wise.

This discovery is pretty important for the Empath Guild in my humble opinion, since the conclusion that it leads to is that if an Empath doesn?t need an extra spell slot and has no real need to raise his stats, then he SHOULDN?T circle in order to maximize how much Empathy skill he?s learning while taking wounds.

Circling is counter-productive to learning Empathy and thus learning Empathy is to be balanced against the advantages of circling to make an effective decision, training wise.

To my knowledge, this is an unique case in all the Experience system of DR and this study is the first one to bring this into light.

Player of Dorelan and Fafrahd the Slinger

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Wounds taken

Fafrahd's injuries include...
Wounds to the HEAD:
Fresh External: a pulpy stump for a head -- useless
Wounds to the NECK:
Fresh External: a completely useless neck with nearly all flesh and bone torn away -- useless
Wounds to the RIGHT ARM:
Fresh External: an ugly stump for a right arm -- useless
Wounds to the LEFT ARM:
Fresh External: an ugly stump for a left arm -- useless
Wounds to the RIGHT LEG:
Fresh External: an ugly stump for a right leg -- useless
Wounds to the LEFT LEG:
Fresh External: an ugly stump for a left leg -- useless
Wounds to the RIGHT HAND:
Fresh External: an ugly stump for a right hand -- useless
Wounds to the LEFT HAND:
Fresh External: an ugly stump for a left hand -- useless
Wounds to the CHEST:
Fresh External: a completely destroyed chest area with nearly all flesh and bone torn away revealing a gaping hole -- useless
Wounds to the ABDOMEN:
Fresh External: a completely destroyed abdomen with nearly all flesh and bone torn away revealing a gaping hole -- useless
Wounds to the BACK:
Fresh External: a completely destroyed back with nearly all flesh and bone torn away revealing a gaping hole -- useless
Wounds to the RIGHT EYE:
Fresh External: a pulpy cavity for a right eye -- useless
Wounds to the LEFT EYE:
Fresh External: a pulpy cavity for a left eye -- useless

Fafrahd has normal vitality.

Fafrahd's injuries include...
Wounds to the HEAD:
Scars External: missing chunks out of the head -- severe
Wounds to the NECK:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the neck -- severe
Wounds to the RIGHT ARM:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the right arm -- severe
Wounds to the LEFT ARM:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the left arm -- severe
Wounds to the RIGHT LEG:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the right leg -- severe
Wounds to the LEFT LEG:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the left leg -- severe
Wounds to the RIGHT HAND:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the right hand -- severe
Wounds to the LEFT HAND:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the left hand -- severe
Wounds to the CHEST:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the chest area -- severe
Wounds to the ABDOMEN:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the abdomen -- severe
Wounds to the BACK:
Scars External: severe scarring and chunks of flesh missing from the back -- severe
Wounds to the RIGHT EYE:
Scars External: a punctured and shriveled right eye -- severe
Wounds to the LEFT EYE:
Scars External: a punctured and shriveled left eye -- severe

Fafrahd is suffering from a deadly loss of vitality (-1664%).


Test #1

Circle: 34

Empathy: 276 12.69% clear (before taking wounds)

Empathy: 276 27.63% clear (after taking wounds)

Gain : ( 27.63 ? 12.69 ) = 14.94 % of a rank


Test #2

Circle: 34

Empathy: 276 27.63% clear (before taking wounds)

Empathy: 276 42.55% clear (after taking wounds)

Gain: ( 42.55 ? 27.63 ) = 14.92 % of a rank


Test #3

Circle: 44

Empathy: 276 42.55% clear (before taking wounds)

Empathy: 276 53.85% clear (after taking wounds)

Gain: ( 53.85 ? 42.55 ) = 11.30 % of a rank


Test #4

Circle: 44

Empathy: 276 53.85% clear (before taking wounds)

Empathy: 276 65.08% clear (after taking wounds)

Gain: ( 65.08 ? 53.85 ) = 11.23 % of a rank



Test #5

Circle: 52

Empathy: 276 65.08% clear (before taking wounds)

Empathy: 276 74.38% clear (after taking wounds)

Gain: ( 74.38 ? 65.08 ) = 9.30 % of a rank


Test #6

Circle: 52

Empathy: 276 74.38% clear (before taking wounds)

Empathy: 276 83.88% clear (after taking wounds)

Gain: ( 83.88 ? 74.38 ) = 9.50 % of a rank

>Circling is counter-productive to learning Empathy and thus learning Empathy is to be balanced against the advantages of circling to make an effective decision, training wise.

That's a lot of data. You've always been very detail oriented when you start on a project like this is.

If your data is correct, then I hope someone who looks after us looks into this mess fairly quickly.

Thank you for doing all this detail work!

Xochi

Not circling again until we get some type of explaination on this.

Hey guys.

I've passed this on to some folks for further exploration.

GM Reexa


______________________________________
Shadow and shade mix together at dawn, but by the time you catch them, simplicity's gone--David Crosby

It's being looked into, gang. I can't comment on it further at this time. I appreciate your understanding.

And thanks to Dorelan for the intense research and detailed information. That kind of work takes dedication, and assists us with locating and verifying any problems or potential problems.

GM Reexa


______________________________________
Shadow and shade mix together at dawn, but by the time you catch them, simplicity's gone--David Crosby

Greetings Reexa.

>It's being looked into, gang. I can't comment on it further at this time. I appreciate your understanding.

Thanks. I was hoping you could take a look into it or pass it to someone, so I'm glad you did that. I hope you will be able to tell us about it when things get looked at and you come up with a decision?

>And thanks to Dorelan for the intense research and detailed information. That kind of work takes dedication, and assists us with locating and verifying any problems or potential problems.

Why, thank you.

Player of Dorelan and Fafrahd the Slinger

<<He didn't get mindlocked in any of the tests, so training mental stats wouldn't help or hurt him in any way. All higher mental skills would do is make the test finish faster - he would learn the exact same.

The only thing training mentals could do is make it so that if he had an endless supply of patients to heal, and didn't need to stop to heal himself, and was therefore always mindlocked in empathy, he would learn much faster with better mental skills.>>

My apologies - was under the impression that higher stats would give you more experience per pulse.

~Chris

--I have only one life to live and one death to die. Therefor, until someone dies my death for me, no one should be telling me how to live the life part.
--someone famous

>My apologies - was under the impression that higher stats would give you more experience per pulse.

You were correct. However mentals won't change the total amount of experience to be had from a given task, they'll just let you a) store more in your pool at once (i.e. your "mindlocked" could actually indicate more experience than a first circler's "mindlocked") or b) absorb from your pool faster.

~Y

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http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

Poor Fafrahd...he gave the ultimate sacrifice...six times.

:-P

Very impressed by the imperical nature of the data. I'd like N to be a bit higher, seeing as only a correlational relationship can be stated. What would be the lurking variables in this study? I was highly anticipating the standard deviation and mean of the scores.

This is all me being fascetious!

Except for the "being impressed" part...oh and the "Poor Fafrahd." Has he recovered fully from the trauma of these events?

~*~ Raudhan, the non-statitician Empath

When we have information to provide regarding this, we will.

:)


GM Reexa


______________________________________
Leave to her the gifts she gave
of flesh, and breath, and bone--Heather Dale

Greetings Reexa.

It's been nearly two months now that I posted my study on circle negatively impacting Empathy learning while taking wounds.

Unless I'm wrong, so far, you could only tell us that the information was passed on to folks in charge for its review, not even commenting on that information being a bug or being and intended feature.

I have to say that I find it disheartening that we don't have more feedback yet.

Right now, we don't even know if what I discovered is intended or is a bug. In both cases, I believe that we should know by now what the truth is.

On one hand, if such a thing is an intended feature, I can't even start to believe to think to that such a knowledge is willingly held up by GM's, willing to keep players in the dark.

On the other hand, if such a thing is a bug, then I can't believe it's not solved yet,, or at least acknowledged, seeing how importantly it affects our learning. Especially if Empathy isn't the only skill affected like some suggested in this topic.

Either way, I just can't start to understand how it is possible that we're still lacking a reply on that issue.

Rather than to make assumptions on the reasons why we're lacking an answer, I would much more like to hear an explanation from you, Reexa. I sincerely hope you'll be able or allowed to do that. If not, I would find it very disheartening.

Dorelan

I too have been wondering about the status of this... although I do trust that Reexa et al are telling us as much as they are allowed to about it.

I wonder if experiments have been done on other skills for this effect? My uncorroborated, unsubstantiated, totally made up by me suspicion is that you have uncovered a previously unknown bug in experience gain that effects all skills, and the GM's are sweating over what to do. My hope is, they are not only working on fixing the bug but are working on recalculating everyone's experience to give us back the ranks we've lost to this effect ;)

>>The current way empath experience gain is set up was intended to be a booster at lower levels.

Jzara,

Would it then stand to reason that at some point (50th, 75th, 100th circle) the experience boost "dies"? Or does it continue to lessen as you go higher? If there is no break point, I think one should be put in (just my two coppers), if there is a break point, is there any chance of that be-nevermind, I already know the answer to that I'm sure. (No offense, I understand your (general your, aka Simu) stance on it)


Rogtos - The fast and (not so) cheep empath

---

Love is a chemical imbalance and life is a sexually transmitted disease.

Greetings Jzara.

First of all, thank you for your reply and your explanation on this Empathy learning issue.

I won't comment on the booster existence, nor on the best way to deal with it, but I will comment on something else.

If this situation was known to the staff, with solutions being proposed even before you joined the Empath GM's, how come it took the staff nearly two months to answer our questions and comment on my experiment?

I mean, we were told that my experiment had been transmitted to the right GM's for review and analysis two months ago, when in fact, everything was already known and analyzed?

How come we didn't get your reply sooner than that? I know I won't ever have the answer to that question, but I'm sure you understand why I'm asking this to myself.

I'm sorry to say so, but this situation leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

Nevertheless, thanks again for posting your explanation, even if it was done with such a surpringly timing.

Dorelan

> That's all the information I have to offer at this time.

I think Dorelan's point is that the information you are offering at this time seems like information that's been available (to GM-types at least) since the topic was first brought up. If the only answer is "We know and we're looking into it" why weren't we told that right away.

~Y

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http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

<grin> I suppose that's a reasonable explanation.

~Y

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http://www.bakshiloa.com/libraryindex.html

It was a well kept secret used to plan the demise of the overpowered empath guild! Empaths are overpowered!

<pours himself another shot>

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Posted by "that Healer of Doom, The Empath of Destruction! Yazegi!"

Ya know, I honestly enjoy your humor sometimes Jzara.


Rogtos - The fast and (not so) cheep empath

---

Love is a chemical imbalance and life is a sexually transmitted disease.

<<This way, we can all ensure that Empaths know their place.>>

I think we've already learned our place: Circle 10. :)

Illcram the Evil Woundbearer

I*'*m an Empath and you can*'*t touch me unless you are a board monitor!

http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=drealms

<Because we knew "we know, and we're fixing it" is more welcomed than "we know and we're looking into it.">

actualy, i'd prefer both comments. "we know and we're looking into it" right when it happens and "we found the problem and are in the process of fixing it" at the next time frame. it gives people a feeling of acomplishment that something they reported was acted upon in the game.

I'd also like to see a thanks to individuals that report bugs when bugs are fixed.

wheller


No good deed goes un-punished!

Yes, I admit it. As we speak plans are being made to nuke perceive health learning and make you heal 9 gnomes before empathy even gets to learning. Then we're going to fit you all with balls and chains so you can't leave the guild. The protection spellbook will be nuked and those spells give to Rangers, in fact any spell that isn't a healing spell will be removed from the guild. This way, we can all ensure that Empaths know their place.

This post brought to you by the slightly unstable mind of GM Jzara.

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That was so not funny! That was down right evil.... okay maybe some found it funny heh...

but for the Gullible peeps out there... that is just so horrifying to see!

I so don't wanna have to heal 9 gnomes! Nor 9 togs or kaldars!

; p