A follow on to a thread regarding training empathy, with questions regarding combat.
1. If I hunt constructs, it looks like I can start in origami creatures, are constructs manipulatable? Would this be a recommended course of action? It looks like I can hunt origami and then boggles, but then there's nothing until gargoyles?
2. Guardian Spirits. Did I read a post somewhere that it takes roughly 200 ranks in magics to be able to use this spell effectively?
3. Will manipulated creatures kill each other? Do empaths get shock from skinning dead non-construct critters?
4. Is there a concentration cost to manipulating? Is it significant or will a n00b still be able to train Empathy via manipulate?
Thanks again for the responses. I'll be starting combat with zero in all combat skills, but at 22nd circle, I think I should be ok as far as stats and such.
________________________________________________________________
"Nope, I decided parry will remain completely and utterly useless. Try something else."
BLUESUEDESHOES
ENOTS
Re: Constructive Combat?
02/27/2013 05:20 PM CST
I won't say my experience applies to Prime, since I've not logged in my prime empath in a while. However, my Plat-side empath has found that the origami constructs can't be manipulated because they have no life force as such. Also, I have seen manipulated creatures attack each other instead of the none-manipulated critters. There is a concentration cost. How severe it is depends on the critter.
Good luck!
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
Good luck!
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
ASREA
Re: Constructive Combat?
02/27/2013 05:21 PM CST
>If I hunt constructs, it looks like I can start in origami creatures, are constructs manipulatable?
Origami are designed as the place to start.. the GM's are aware of the gap between origami and granite gargoyles (roughly 60-120) and are working on it.
Constructs are not manipulatable as they are animated objects with no direct life essence of their own. You'll find your defenses will eventually out perform your weapons skill and you may be able to find you can move from training one to the other. Manipulate/non-damaging TM/tactics with living creatures, then weapon training with constructs.
>Did I read a post somewhere that it takes roughly 200 ranks in magics to be able to use this spell effectively?
They're certainly no longer designed like they used to be which was a "hotfix" when concentration changes broke manipulate. I honestly don't use it much so maybe someone else who does can chime in on it's usefulness. I prefer to keep AD up.
>Will manipulated creatures kill each other?
Manipulating causes creatuers to consider YOU a friend, so if there's another person in the room the creature will move to attack them.
Hunting solo will cause the creature to attack another creature maybe 75% of the time, sometimes they will just leave. This causes the manipulation link to break.
>Do empaths get shock from skinning dead non-construct critters?
No. They're dead, not alive. No problem.
>Is there a concentration cost to manipulating? Is it significant or will a n00b still be able to train Empathy via manipulate?
There is a concentration cost but it's nothing compared to what it used to be. Manipulate has now been designed with a broad empathy range in mind for training purposes. Think of it as a empathy to combat difficulty ratio. Trying to manipulate something outside your range may end up in failure and manipulating something beneath you too far will provide little skill gain.
Have fun and welcome to the guild.
Origami are designed as the place to start.. the GM's are aware of the gap between origami and granite gargoyles (roughly 60-120) and are working on it.
Constructs are not manipulatable as they are animated objects with no direct life essence of their own. You'll find your defenses will eventually out perform your weapons skill and you may be able to find you can move from training one to the other. Manipulate/non-damaging TM/tactics with living creatures, then weapon training with constructs.
>Did I read a post somewhere that it takes roughly 200 ranks in magics to be able to use this spell effectively?
They're certainly no longer designed like they used to be which was a "hotfix" when concentration changes broke manipulate. I honestly don't use it much so maybe someone else who does can chime in on it's usefulness. I prefer to keep AD up.
>Will manipulated creatures kill each other?
Manipulating causes creatuers to consider YOU a friend, so if there's another person in the room the creature will move to attack them.
Hunting solo will cause the creature to attack another creature maybe 75% of the time, sometimes they will just leave. This causes the manipulation link to break.
>Do empaths get shock from skinning dead non-construct critters?
No. They're dead, not alive. No problem.
>Is there a concentration cost to manipulating? Is it significant or will a n00b still be able to train Empathy via manipulate?
There is a concentration cost but it's nothing compared to what it used to be. Manipulate has now been designed with a broad empathy range in mind for training purposes. Think of it as a empathy to combat difficulty ratio. Trying to manipulate something outside your range may end up in failure and manipulating something beneath you too far will provide little skill gain.
Have fun and welcome to the guild.
GAMMERGIRL151
Re: Constructive Combat?
02/27/2013 05:27 PM CST
>>1. If I hunt constructs, it looks like I can start in origami creatures, are constructs manipulatable? Would this be a recommended course of action?
Generally because constructs have no life essence, they are not manipulatable. You don't get shock from hitting them because they are not alive, and you can only use empathy on other living things. Hunting constructs is a good way to train weapon skills, but in general isn't necessary for an Empath. You can train defenses and most of your skills on other things which you can manipulate. Fighting constructs really depends on if you're interested in training a weapon.
>>It looks like I can hunt origami and then boggles, but then there's nothing until gargoyles?
Correct. This page should be current: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Constructs
>> 2. Guardian Spirits. Did I read a post somewhere that it takes roughly 200 ranks in magics to be able to use this spell effectively?
Quoting discern here: "To begin to be able to cast this spell, you will need to reach the rank of a 50th degree adept. By the time you have mastered this spell, you will be ranked as a guru in your abilities as a caster. It requires the Utility skill to cast effectively."
A 50th degree adept means 250 ranks, so around then you will be able to start to cast it successfully. It doesn't mean you can't cast it at all before then, your mental stats and other factors can help you out a bit.
>> 3. Will manipulated creatures kill each other? Do empaths get shock from skinning dead non-construct critters?
Yes, they can and will kill each other. No, you don't get shock from skinning anything. Things have to be dead to be skinned.
>>4. Is there a concentration cost to manipulating? Is it significant or will a n00b still be able to train Empathy via manipulate?
Prior to about 2011 there was a cost and a maintenance (pulsing cost) to your concentration pool. That was changed, and it doesn't seem like there's much if any 'cost' anymore.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
Generally because constructs have no life essence, they are not manipulatable. You don't get shock from hitting them because they are not alive, and you can only use empathy on other living things. Hunting constructs is a good way to train weapon skills, but in general isn't necessary for an Empath. You can train defenses and most of your skills on other things which you can manipulate. Fighting constructs really depends on if you're interested in training a weapon.
>>It looks like I can hunt origami and then boggles, but then there's nothing until gargoyles?
Correct. This page should be current: http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Constructs
>> 2. Guardian Spirits. Did I read a post somewhere that it takes roughly 200 ranks in magics to be able to use this spell effectively?
Quoting discern here: "To begin to be able to cast this spell, you will need to reach the rank of a 50th degree adept. By the time you have mastered this spell, you will be ranked as a guru in your abilities as a caster. It requires the Utility skill to cast effectively."
A 50th degree adept means 250 ranks, so around then you will be able to start to cast it successfully. It doesn't mean you can't cast it at all before then, your mental stats and other factors can help you out a bit.
>> 3. Will manipulated creatures kill each other? Do empaths get shock from skinning dead non-construct critters?
Yes, they can and will kill each other. No, you don't get shock from skinning anything. Things have to be dead to be skinned.
>>4. Is there a concentration cost to manipulating? Is it significant or will a n00b still be able to train Empathy via manipulate?
Prior to about 2011 there was a cost and a maintenance (pulsing cost) to your concentration pool. That was changed, and it doesn't seem like there's much if any 'cost' anymore.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
http://i.imgur.com/fBq8R.jpg
BLUESUEDESHOES
Re: Constructive Combat?
02/27/2013 05:28 PM CST
Thank you all for the responses, I can't wait to get started in combat.
________________________________________________________________
"Nope, I decided parry will remain completely and utterly useless. Try something else."
________________________________________________________________
"Nope, I decided parry will remain completely and utterly useless. Try something else."
KHELEK00
Re: Constructive Combat?
02/28/2013 08:49 AM CST
Every thing seems pretty well covered but I'll add a few things. About the sparse construct ladder: it matters less with mastery skills, they'll help you bridge the gap between critters. Constructs weren't released until I was well into the stone gargoyle range. Before constructs it was just parry training to slowly learn a weapon or classes. I decided to pick up a second weapon (which turned into 6 new weapons) and back train, just for some extra TDPs and fun. I like the idea of my empath using a variety of weapons.
So, to get back to the point. With 0 in a few weapons, 155 Melee Mastery and 30 Agility, I could hit the stone gargoyles. It was infrequent but that means Melee Mastery was making up for about 100 ranks in skill. So just having that skill will help a ton. It's a breeze to keep training, if you're learning the weapon, you'll learn mastery, even if your mastery is far beyond the weapon itself. This does slow it down a bit though.
>>2. Guardian Spirits. Did I read a post somewhere that it takes roughly 200 ranks in magics to be able to use this spell effectively?
>>A 50th degree adept means 250 ranks, so around then you will be able to start to cast it successfully.
If you've got the mastery feats (should be utility mastery for GS) then you should be able to start casting it at closer to 200. GS seems lackluster compared to manipulate though, the empathy training on manipulate is great.
>>3. Will manipulated creatures kill each other?
>>Hunting solo will cause the creature to attack another creature maybe 75% of the time, sometimes they will just leave. This causes the manipulation link to break.
This might just be the RNG but I haven't seen a newly manipulated critter leave the room, they always turn to attack something else. However, after they kill their target I've seen them leave the room but it's usually not a big deal to just manipulate the next one.
The other day, someone said "Train your weapon like a barb and your shield like a pally" in relation to someone else who is starting up a combat empath. This is very true. Constructs (at least the ones I've face so far) are better defended against with a shield. Gargoyles have a slam attack, clay soldiers have those fragments they throw. Both of these will get through parry more than shield. The clay fragments are deadly if you're parrying and don't have the evasion to dodge them all. Parry training on clay soldiers is a very bad idea so you'll need to move between constructs and non-constructs in order to keep everything going. This isn't that big of a deal though because of manipulation and whatnot, just keep it in mind. Definitely don't neglect parry.
--
Player of Leech Farmer Nithhogr
So, to get back to the point. With 0 in a few weapons, 155 Melee Mastery and 30 Agility, I could hit the stone gargoyles. It was infrequent but that means Melee Mastery was making up for about 100 ranks in skill. So just having that skill will help a ton. It's a breeze to keep training, if you're learning the weapon, you'll learn mastery, even if your mastery is far beyond the weapon itself. This does slow it down a bit though.
>>2. Guardian Spirits. Did I read a post somewhere that it takes roughly 200 ranks in magics to be able to use this spell effectively?
>>A 50th degree adept means 250 ranks, so around then you will be able to start to cast it successfully.
If you've got the mastery feats (should be utility mastery for GS) then you should be able to start casting it at closer to 200. GS seems lackluster compared to manipulate though, the empathy training on manipulate is great.
>>3. Will manipulated creatures kill each other?
>>Hunting solo will cause the creature to attack another creature maybe 75% of the time, sometimes they will just leave. This causes the manipulation link to break.
This might just be the RNG but I haven't seen a newly manipulated critter leave the room, they always turn to attack something else. However, after they kill their target I've seen them leave the room but it's usually not a big deal to just manipulate the next one.
The other day, someone said "Train your weapon like a barb and your shield like a pally" in relation to someone else who is starting up a combat empath. This is very true. Constructs (at least the ones I've face so far) are better defended against with a shield. Gargoyles have a slam attack, clay soldiers have those fragments they throw. Both of these will get through parry more than shield. The clay fragments are deadly if you're parrying and don't have the evasion to dodge them all. Parry training on clay soldiers is a very bad idea so you'll need to move between constructs and non-constructs in order to keep everything going. This isn't that big of a deal though because of manipulation and whatnot, just keep it in mind. Definitely don't neglect parry.
--
Player of Leech Farmer Nithhogr
ASREA
Re: Constructive Combat?
03/01/2013 08:26 PM CST
>This might just be the RNG but I haven't seen a newly manipulated critter leave the room, they always turn to attack something else. However, after they kill their target I've seen them leave the room but it's usually not a big deal to just manipulate the next one.
You know you're right, it's become much less frequent since the new manipulate and combat changes. It is really a minor if not insignificant problem now.
>Parry training on clay soldiers.
A pretty well training alternative to clay soldiers is the rarely used Lachmates in Hara if you are willing to go to the islands.
You know you're right, it's become much less frequent since the new manipulate and combat changes. It is really a minor if not insignificant problem now.
>Parry training on clay soldiers.
A pretty well training alternative to clay soldiers is the rarely used Lachmates in Hara if you are willing to go to the islands.
