I know this question has been asked, but after about 30 minutes of searching (and getting sidetracked) I can't find an answer. In order to use Manipulate to gain empathy experience, do I have to be manipulating something whose defenses close to my empathy ranks?
RHILE
YZRAQHUNT
SARKRANIS
Re: Empathy
07/23/2012 08:40 PM CDT
>>Rhile: I know this question has been asked, but after about 30 minutes of searching (and getting sidetracked) I can't find an answer. In order to use Manipulate to gain empathy experience, do I have to be manipulating something whose defenses close to my empathy ranks?
Yes, but the range is very generous. (At 700+ ranks, I'm able to learn empathy by manipulating mature gryphons.) Also keep in mind that the experience timer seems to be on a delay (kind of like appraisal or first aid), so you may not see new field experience immediately after using the MANIPULATE FRIENDSHIP command.
A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a brief description of the various ways to train empathy:
manipulation: An Empath with about 100 effective ranks of empathy (22nd circle) can learn how to manipulate creatures (one or two at a time) to make them see the Empath as an ally (and fight accordingly). As of March 2011, you gain a moderate amount of empathy experience for the duration of the manipulation link. With 700+ ranks, I am able to mind lock empathy after 45-60 minutes of hunting -- not bad when you're also learning other skills.
However, you will only gain experience if the creature poses some challenge to your empathy. If your empathy ranks grossly exceed the combat requirements of what you're hunting, you won't be challenged. (In other words, a 100th circle Empath won't learn empathy by manipulating ship's rats.) Don't let this discourage you. The range is generous. It's easy to stay in the "learning range," especially if you're starting from scratch.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
Yes, but the range is very generous. (At 700+ ranks, I'm able to learn empathy by manipulating mature gryphons.) Also keep in mind that the experience timer seems to be on a delay (kind of like appraisal or first aid), so you may not see new field experience immediately after using the MANIPULATE FRIENDSHIP command.
A couple of weeks ago, I wrote a brief description of the various ways to train empathy:
manipulation: An Empath with about 100 effective ranks of empathy (22nd circle) can learn how to manipulate creatures (one or two at a time) to make them see the Empath as an ally (and fight accordingly). As of March 2011, you gain a moderate amount of empathy experience for the duration of the manipulation link. With 700+ ranks, I am able to mind lock empathy after 45-60 minutes of hunting -- not bad when you're also learning other skills.
However, you will only gain experience if the creature poses some challenge to your empathy. If your empathy ranks grossly exceed the combat requirements of what you're hunting, you won't be challenged. (In other words, a 100th circle Empath won't learn empathy by manipulating ship's rats.) Don't let this discourage you. The range is generous. It's easy to stay in the "learning range," especially if you're starting from scratch.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
DELVER
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 07:14 AM CDT
>manipulation: An Empath with about 100 effective ranks of empathy (22nd circle) can learn how to manipulate creatures
Just as an aside, the Plat instance has a NPC that will teach it at 20th circle if you can't find a PC to teach it. It does have a 'quest' involved though.
Just as an aside, the Plat instance has a NPC that will teach it at 20th circle if you can't find a PC to teach it. It does have a 'quest' involved though.
VIEW
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 03:30 PM CDT
>>With 700+ ranks, I am able to mind lock empathy after 45-60 minutes of hunting -- not bad when you're also learning other skills.
Two questions for ya.
1) Did it always take you that long to lock empathy with mature gryphons or is it more to do with your empathy skill highly outpacing your defenses therefor putting you on the lower end of exp bits per pulse?
2) Are natural armor critters actually good at killing each other with lethargy and paralyze cast on one them? At least with stronger critters anyway. Seems to me that eels take forever to kill each other even debuffed. I always figured that eventually when critters start being able to kill PC with one well placed hit they should be able to take each other out pretty well too. I sort of just assume that critters with armor and weapons don't do so well against each other in general.
Two questions for ya.
1) Did it always take you that long to lock empathy with mature gryphons or is it more to do with your empathy skill highly outpacing your defenses therefor putting you on the lower end of exp bits per pulse?
2) Are natural armor critters actually good at killing each other with lethargy and paralyze cast on one them? At least with stronger critters anyway. Seems to me that eels take forever to kill each other even debuffed. I always figured that eventually when critters start being able to kill PC with one well placed hit they should be able to take each other out pretty well too. I sort of just assume that critters with armor and weapons don't do so well against each other in general.
ASREA
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 03:45 PM CDT
>I sort of just assume that critters with armor and weapons don't do so well against each other in general.
This. Trying to manipulate in sky giants is an exercise in futility, while in malchata it goes pretty well. Generally things that can parry against each other don't do well in a battle.
This. Trying to manipulate in sky giants is an exercise in futility, while in malchata it goes pretty well. Generally things that can parry against each other don't do well in a battle.
SARKRANIS
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 04:20 PM CDT
>>View: 1) Did it always take you that long to lock empathy with mature gryphons or is it more to do with your empathy skill highly outpacing your defenses therefor putting you on the lower end of exp bits per pulse?
I started using this method with mature gryphons. I had tried manipulation a few times before against easier mobs but wasn't gaining experience. I don't know if the amount of experience that you receive depends on the difficulty of the creature or if the experience is the same provided that you pass the "sufficiently challenging" threshold.
>>View: 2) Are natural armor critters actually good at killing each other with lethargy and paralyze cast on one them? . . . I sort of just assume that critters with armor and weapons don't do so well against each other in general.
I rarely use these spells, so I can't speak to this. I primarily use manipulate as a way to get empathy experience. (The kills are just gravy.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
I started using this method with mature gryphons. I had tried manipulation a few times before against easier mobs but wasn't gaining experience. I don't know if the amount of experience that you receive depends on the difficulty of the creature or if the experience is the same provided that you pass the "sufficiently challenging" threshold.
>>View: 2) Are natural armor critters actually good at killing each other with lethargy and paralyze cast on one them? . . . I sort of just assume that critters with armor and weapons don't do so well against each other in general.
I rarely use these spells, so I can't speak to this. I primarily use manipulate as a way to get empathy experience. (The kills are just gravy.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
ASREA
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 04:42 PM CDT
> (The kills are just gravy.)
I agree that the money is not going to flow quickly with manipulate, but the issue I have with creatures not being able to kill each other is when training TM with PARA you get diminishing returns IIRC.
>You will not, however, get successive experience for chain-disabling or chain-debuffing with these spell types [para/leth]. Once you use the spell on a given critter, there will a successively worsening experience penalty
- GM Sithix
I agree that the money is not going to flow quickly with manipulate, but the issue I have with creatures not being able to kill each other is when training TM with PARA you get diminishing returns IIRC.
>You will not, however, get successive experience for chain-disabling or chain-debuffing with these spell types [para/leth]. Once you use the spell on a given critter, there will a successively worsening experience penalty
- GM Sithix
TEXAS212
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 06:09 PM CDT
I havent been able to find anything that teaches me empathy by manipulation. I have 400 empathy and 200ish defenses. I have tried bloodvines, and ther serpents in fang cove with little success although both teach me very well for all my other skills. I try on just about everything else I fight against, regrdless of if I stay in that area - and I move alot. Any thoughts on where to look for manipulation love at this level?
GRIM45
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 06:26 PM CDT
You're likely going to need to get your defenses caught up to your empathy a little more (not necessarily same ranks).
Try:
Grizzled Red Leucro
Elder Red Brocket Deer
Baby Forest Gryphon
In that order.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Try:
Grizzled Red Leucro
Elder Red Brocket Deer
Baby Forest Gryphon
In that order.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
GAMMERGIRL151
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 07:40 PM CDT
>> I started using this method with mature gryphons. I had tried manipulation a few times before against easier mobs but wasn't gaining experience. I don't know if the amount of experience that you receive depends on the difficulty of the creature or if the experience is the same provided that you pass the "sufficiently challenging" threshold.
*takes credit* You're welcome :P
I was told originally it was like a weapon skill check for difficulty and exp, but I don't know how accurate that is. So basically if you're fighting a gryphon with 400 empathy, and 400 Light Edge would still train well there, it should.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
*takes credit* You're welcome :P
I was told originally it was like a weapon skill check for difficulty and exp, but I don't know how accurate that is. So basically if you're fighting a gryphon with 400 empathy, and 400 Light Edge would still train well there, it should.
You've reached the uninformative help match I haven't written yet.
DR-MELETE
Re: Empathy
07/24/2012 08:46 PM CDT
Yes, the range is generous, but if you're at the tail end of the range (that is to say, your Empathy is way higher than the critter's skill) then you won't learn that well. It teaches pretty well if you can manage a 1:1 ratio, but I know that's hard to do when dealing with primary vs. tertiary skills.
Melete
My old clock used to tell the time
and subdivide diurnity;
but now it's lost both hands and chime
and only tells eternity.
Melete
My old clock used to tell the time
and subdivide diurnity;
but now it's lost both hands and chime
and only tells eternity.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Empathy
08/03/2012 05:13 PM CDT
I'm going to be rebooting my Empath in a little while, and after repeatedly arguing with people on the Moon Mage forum about this, I laughed when I saw this comment Melete:
>but I know that's hard to do when dealing with primary vs. tertiary skills.
>but I know that's hard to do when dealing with primary vs. tertiary skills.
