>>I want you to understand Szrael that this isn't about you or Reene. You both are more then adequately experienced in this game to understand how to play things through.

I'm not sure about that statement, at least one of the people you named have become quite avid reporters that seem to do so at the drop of a hanky and I'll give you a hint - it's not Szrael.


~Arwinia

The Empath spellbook is a riddle trapped in an enigma hidden inside a lot of suck.-Armifer

This thread is amazing.

In the old days, empaths relaxed in the sitting room, healed in the infirmary, and boxes were popped in the main room. That's how it was designed. Mana for 99% of the DR empaths is better in the infirmary, and game mechanics prevent box popping in the infirmary.

Empaths started healing in the main room not because of better mana (Even the highest empaths at the time, could not see better mana in the main room.
), because it was an advantage to getting to patients first (which was the only way to circle back then). Though many hunters ran by empaths to the infirmary at first out of habit, eventually more decided to stop at the main room.. because, why face the scroll of the infirmary when there is a empath here ready to heal you. Back then, nearly all boxes generated wounds, poison and boomers from goblins, and razors from rock trolls so it made the main room even better for Empaths hungering for wounds. Poison gas clouds and AOE slivers happened, but it added something interesting to the game, it kept the people inside the room awake, and the speed at which people would jump to their feet into action and drag newbies west or out when a AOE box was popped is almost unthinkable in this day of main room zombies. Even back then when the average empath circle was probably one fifth of what it is now, healing everyone up after an AOE blunder was no problem. They were professional.

Even though some people (rightfully) can view popping in the main room as inconsiderate, it's not a mortal sin to pop a box there. Especially now when higher proportion of traps are harmless (mime's, fleas, bouncers, etc). Most of the afker students in there could use a little excitement anyhow.

And now.. dragging dead bodies into the empath guild for healing before a drag to the cleric's guild being taboo? Give me a break.


---
"All models are wrong, some are useful." -George C. Box

>>It seems to be treated the same as ACCUSE, is the thing. I think this is because the original intent of REMOVE was more in line with what ACCUSE does - it's a way of nonviolently dealing with people who are being conflictual and disruptive, in this case by removing them from your turf. However, as time went on, GMs realized that to moderate usage of REMOVE would be impossible and require more GM-hours than was wise or sane, so they decreed that you can REMOVE someone from your guild for any reason or no reason at all. While I do think this was a good decision, it does create consent issues that are not easy to address.<<

Seems spot on.

>>I'm afraid I don't really have a solution. I think a nonconflictual Empath (or Ranger or Cleric or whatever) should absolutely have the right to remove someone who is being legitimately disruptive from their guild without having to deal with a recourse - much the same way you can choose to deal with a pickpocket by ACCUSING them. However, in the cases where REMOVE is used frivolously, I do see and agree with the case for consent being granted. But how do you separate the two? I don't know how to go about writing a policy for that, and I think trying to do so would be a bigger pain than it's worth.<<

If GM moderation would take too many man hours and an adequate policy response would be too complex (and cost too many man hours to enforce), the best alternative is to have REMOVE (in all flavors) grant consent so that players can self-moderate.

If a REMOVEr faced potential death for using that option, you can be sure that in most cases:

1) The person removed did SOMETHING.

2) That something was annoying or disruptive enough that someone decided to vote with his/her skin to stop it.

That should pretty well end frivolous use of the option.


- Mazrian

The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png

>You must not have read my post, even if a cleric is present they should be dragged to the cleric guild. The holy mana in the empath guild is terrible

i know it is, it's said to be better in the healarie though, as to whether you can actually raise there ::shrugs::


--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com

Only in cases where Empaths are abusing the REMOVE system in their guild should it even possibly grant consent, and as stated that would be too difficult to separate.

<< Think of it from the reasoning of for "every action, there is an equal reaction." I'm not saying to go outside and get yourself attempted to be killed. However, if you removed someone from your own guildhall, you were the one that removed that individual and should accept your actions that you've done. This doesn't just go for removal of someone from a guild, but any action done. You make an action and you should accept the consequences whether it is good, bad or mixed in perception of others. >>

With all due respect, I think you need to look at this from the Empath's perspective. If someone is being disruptive or added a level of danger in the EMPATH guild, they should take responsibility for their actions when an EMPATH attempts to do something about it. Just like with accusing a thief, removal settles the score, it does not open up further consent in some endless chain. Removal is not the action, its the reaction an Empath takes when another is disruptive. Many empaths are non-combative and non-confrontational, and this is our only avenue for keeping order in our own guild.

With that said, I had absolutely no idea the mana in the main room was so good at higher skills. Murithi has under 200 Power Perception and the infirmary still holds better mana for her. I agree with re-balancing the mana in the guild the make the infirmary better for both younger and older Empaths, and give the box pickers back their room if they really want it.

But until that happens, if its the best place for Empaths to heal then respect their wishes. It is their Guild after all. Go somewhere else if you don't like it. This might not even be possible due to wards, its just an example, but how would barbarians like it if a bunch of mages set up camp in their guild hall and practiced non-damaging AoE spells non stop? I would think at best they would be rather annoyed, and more likely furious. Same thing.

Murithi

of course, thats because most guilds don't "guild-sit" any more, when's the last time when you saw more than 5 barbarians sitting around in their guildhall during a non-mentor event? paladins either for that matter. empaths still hang out because its also a "heal spot", but you're just as likely to find empaths at the willow walk, or in the ranger houseing area se part of xing.




It's a number, it gets bigger. That's the whole DR experience right there

>>I have said before in the cleric boards and I will say it here again- as far as I am concerned anyone in a guild who is not a member of the guild is a guest. No non-guild member is entitled to be there. Let other guild members discipline frivolous use if necessary, but guild members should be able to eject non-guild members from their guild and the onus should be on the one ejected to demonstrate that they were not at fault.

If an empath ejects someone from his or her own guild hall, why should that provide consent? Ejection is intended for guildmembers to police their own guild, and that includes being able to eject those who can wipe the floor with them. Making ejection consent would result in ejection not being used for what it is intended- which is self policing.

Nobody is entitled to be in the empath guild hall but empaths. If folks can't behave themselves, empaths should be able to toss them without worrying about consent.>>


Agreed.
Giving consent for being removed from a guild would end up being a lame deal where the big guns can come in and disrupt at their leisure while lower level empaths (and other guests) can either miserably deal with it or get pulverized. From observation, the ones that come in to do nothing but disrupt are also the type that generally like to keep pulverizing long after the consent is over. Getting killed is a bit much to ask of someone that just doesn't want disruptive and rude people disrespecting their guild.

>>Mana for 99% of the DR empaths is better in the infirmary, and game mechanics prevent box popping in the infirmary.

This is not true. My Empath isn't even 50th yet and the mana in the main room has been better for her for quite a while.

>>Empaths started healing in the main room

Likely because the high level Empaths (who taught the teaching classes of yore) could sense better mana there after being able to pull from other rooms. A teaching class used to be the main barrier to advancement for Empaths, and a good one was definitely something you'd endure crappier mana to get. Once some Empaths starting hanging out there, others followed, because patients stopped checking the infirmary after a good number of Empaths set up in the main room.

That notwithstanding, it makes no sense for people to be disarming bombs in a hospital. My character doesn't view box opening to be a mortal sin, but she finds it rude enough to throw someone out over, especially if they are quite rude when she asks them to stop.

>>And now.. dragging dead bodies into the empath guild for healing before a drag to the cleric's guild being taboo?

As far as I can tell this is just one Empath's point of view.

-- Player of Szrael --

---

You grip the oversized book hanging from your leather belt and survey the area with a hint of malice in your eyes.

With a violent cross-body motion, you draw your oversized book.

Removing someone from the guild doesn't stop them from using either autoempath, or gwething for help.

Just putting that out there.

And just to make DEARMANK happy: I WISH THERE WERE AUTOCLERICS.

---

Rev. Reene

The black panther growls, "Are you blind Tachid? Kill Caelumia."
>
Tachid says, "SHE HAS BLUE FIRE"

Poster ENFO13 has added another twist onto my already difficult what if scenario.

I think I'm going to have to shake it up and now say...

For one day if you could see the world through Krugler, Mordimer or ENFO13 glasses which would you choose.

I think I'm still going with Krugler.


~Arwinia

The Empath spellbook is a riddle trapped in an enigma hidden inside a lot of suck.-Armifer

Lol

I no krugler and mord.

World view? MORDIMER hands down.

The difference is mechanical hooks. The system tracks it if I'm stolen from with the STEAL verb. If someone steals an item from me, they've still stolen from me, but I can't ACCUSE because the system doesn't track that.

I think you know enough to know it's more nuanced than you're saying.

---

Rev. Reene

The black panther growls, "Are you blind Tachid? Kill Caelumia."
>
Tachid says, "SHE HAS BLUE FIRE"

I agree on the aspect where it's difficult to track the mechanics from what Reene pointed.

<<This also opens up exciting new griefing opportunities where people can go and harass people in the guildhalls, get kicked out, and then use that consent to kill the person.>>

I don't buy that. Griefing opportunities can happen no matter what type of mechanics or non-mechanics are in place. What is to stop a person from removing someone from the guild repeatedly in a long period of time? Things can happen both ways.

<<Being in the Empath guild is a privilege.>>

Yep, I agree.

- Simon

Just have the Gor'Togs that remove people from the guild kill the people instead. Everyone will be happy and have it grant consent too. Win win for all.

>>in the case of the former, if someone has disease,the autoempaths don't do anything.

Diseased people should avoid pissing off empaths in their guild then, hmm?

This is the kind of thing that's really sad.

My Empath is still under 25th (hopefully not for long!) and there have been a few people who were incredibly harassing toward her (I have her circle shown in her profile, though I don't know if they check) because she charges.

I also have a lot of people who now will continually come to her. She generally heals very quickly, and gets tipped well besides her fee for the most part.

But then there are the people who take offense, to the point where one day two other uninvolved Empaths actually kicked someone out due to how bad it was.

I have no real recourse for this, especially being so little. I can't kick people out. My combat skills aren't amazing. I have no avenger.

At the same time, I haven't had this much fun in DR in a long time. She's a blast to RP with, and there are slowly more and more people who are coming around to the idea of paying for healing up front. She'll make deals, take alternative payment, there was even one guy who gave her a 10 second test to heal him, and if she passed he'd pay, if not he wouldn't.

People are just viewing this as "Wow look at those greedy Empaths" when really it has absolutely nothing to do with money. It's something new, something different, and I'm really glad it's happening. Even with those who get mad and seem to take it personally (and don't know when to stop).


I fully expect her to be killed at some point, though I figure it will be due kicking someone out (with help), and not the fact that she charges.