Hey y'all! We've been having a discussion about this on discord, but thought I'd post here to try and get more feedback.
The issue we're running up against is manipulating multiple creatures. Here's the rub:
One of us is hunting Bronze Leucros (600-800 ranks, per wiki) and is having issues manipulating more than one creature at a time. The person's base empathy is at the hunting cap for the creatures (800 ranks) but can only manipulate one of them. This person had low charisma, so they bumped it up to 50 with no luck. They also tried to buff their empathy with GOL (to the tune of mid 900s), and still only one creature is able to be manipulated.
Is the threshold for manipulating supposed to be so far past the hunting ranks of the creature?
I know LEARNING empathy from manipulating is intended to teach past the hunting level of the creature, since our empathy is primary (and a major circling req) and our weapons are tert.
It seems counter productive to allow us to learn for a set range but then hamstring it by only allowing us to manipulate one creature (which significantly lowers how much we can learn).
Is this working as intended or is this something that was overlooked?
p.s.
for reference, I myself can manipulate two black apes just find at 730 empathy, which is BELOW the hunting cap (according to wiki) by 30 points, yet this person can't manipulate two leucros at almost 200 ranks above the hunting caps.
KEITH80
VOROSR
Re: Manipulate Friendship issues
01/27/2021 09:14 PM CST
I'd suspect that the Charisma is holding him back, rather than a bug, but I'd be interested in finding out for sure. 50 is still very low for a stat for someone nominally most of the way to 150 (assuming Empathy is what's holding them back.) That said, I haven't played an empath around that tier with Charisma in that vicinity (with Empathy intact, at least) in order to try. Shock would be the other possible culprit that comes to mind, aside from it simply being a bug with bronze leucros.
WEBBA80
Re: Manipulate Friendship issues
01/27/2021 10:39 PM CST
Not able to manipulate more than 1 Bonze Leucro or Super Celp. Circle 129 with 805 Empathy FA is holding me back :) Also no shock whatsoever.
Also tried bumping up Wisdom with a big cast of WOTP which added another 10 ranks.
Strength : 33 Reflex : 75
Agility : 22 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 71 Wisdom : 66
Intelligence : 66 Stamina : 70
Concentration : 491 Max : 491
Also tried bumping up Wisdom with a big cast of WOTP which added another 10 ranks.
Strength : 33 Reflex : 75
Agility : 22 Charisma : 50
Discipline : 71 Wisdom : 66
Intelligence : 66 Stamina : 70
Concentration : 491 Max : 491
DR-CORDULIA
Re: Manipulate Friendship issues
01/28/2021 06:29 AM CST
>>KEITH80: manipulating multiple creatures
Determining whether you can manipulate a creature occurs in a two-step process.
The first step -- let's call it the "skill contest" -- pits your empathy and charisma against the creature's level to determine whether you have the empathic power to manipulate the creature at all. (Being empathically shocked penalizes you for the purpose of the "skill check." The more shock you have, the greater the penalty -- at 100% shock, you cannot manipulate at all.)
If you win the skill contest, a second analysis -- let's call it the "concentration cost" -- determines whether you can focus on maintaining the link. This cost analysis considers the creature's level, your empathy ranks, and your concentration. (Recall that concentration is a function of discipline, intelligence, and stamina.)
There is also a bit of a random factor, so if you are on the cusp of being able to manipulate one or two creatures, you may not succeed 100% of the time.
>>Is the threshold for manipulating supposed to be so far past the hunting ranks of the creature?
To manipulate two creatures, it costs twice as much "concentration" as it does to manipulate a single creature. Therefore, it is easily possible to have the raw skill to manipulate something but not enough concentration to maintain a second link.
>>This person had low charisma, so they bumped it up to 50 with no luck.
Increasing charisma doesn't affect your ability to maintain a second manipulation link (but does factor into the initial skill contest).
>>WEBBA80: Not able to manipulate more than 1 Bonze Leucro or Super Celp. Circle 129 with 805 Empathy FA is holding me back :) Also no shock whatsoever.
I did a test on these creatures with those numbers, and the calculation is working correctly.
"Super" celpeze are a little easier than bronze leucros, so I'd expect you to be able to manipulate a second celpeze before you can manipulate a second leucro. (You're pretty close to being able to manipulate a second celpeze.)
>>Also tried bumping up Wisdom with a big cast of WOTP which added another 10 ranks.
Wisdom does not affect your ability to manipulate creatures.
GM Cordulia
Determining whether you can manipulate a creature occurs in a two-step process.
The first step -- let's call it the "skill contest" -- pits your empathy and charisma against the creature's level to determine whether you have the empathic power to manipulate the creature at all. (Being empathically shocked penalizes you for the purpose of the "skill check." The more shock you have, the greater the penalty -- at 100% shock, you cannot manipulate at all.)
If you win the skill contest, a second analysis -- let's call it the "concentration cost" -- determines whether you can focus on maintaining the link. This cost analysis considers the creature's level, your empathy ranks, and your concentration. (Recall that concentration is a function of discipline, intelligence, and stamina.)
There is also a bit of a random factor, so if you are on the cusp of being able to manipulate one or two creatures, you may not succeed 100% of the time.
>>Is the threshold for manipulating supposed to be so far past the hunting ranks of the creature?
To manipulate two creatures, it costs twice as much "concentration" as it does to manipulate a single creature. Therefore, it is easily possible to have the raw skill to manipulate something but not enough concentration to maintain a second link.
>>This person had low charisma, so they bumped it up to 50 with no luck.
Increasing charisma doesn't affect your ability to maintain a second manipulation link (but does factor into the initial skill contest).
>>WEBBA80: Not able to manipulate more than 1 Bonze Leucro or Super Celp. Circle 129 with 805 Empathy FA is holding me back :) Also no shock whatsoever.
I did a test on these creatures with those numbers, and the calculation is working correctly.
"Super" celpeze are a little easier than bronze leucros, so I'd expect you to be able to manipulate a second celpeze before you can manipulate a second leucro. (You're pretty close to being able to manipulate a second celpeze.)
>>Also tried bumping up Wisdom with a big cast of WOTP which added another 10 ranks.
Wisdom does not affect your ability to manipulate creatures.
GM Cordulia
KEITH80
Re: Manipulate Friendship issues
01/28/2021 10:28 AM CST
That's some good info, thanks Cordulia!
WEBBA80
Re: Manipulate Friendship issues
01/28/2021 10:46 AM CST
Wow! Thanks for the info. I just wish we would have posted before I dumped all those tdps into charisma lol.
That helps a ton with my understanding.
That helps a ton with my understanding.
SORTIK
Re: Manipulate Friendship issues
01/28/2021 01:22 PM CST
Wow, great response. Quick, while you're in the mood, go answer all the questions Rangers have asked about how things work in the last decade. :)
ZERODIVIDES
Re: Manipulate Friendship issues
02/16/2021 08:45 PM CST
I don't have stats to back this up, but the "battle empath" word of mouth has always been that if you can manipulate two, it's time to move up, if you're trying to maximize Empathy. Granted, that assumes that one can move up without dying, which is definitely not a given.
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