No offense, but I think it's funny that you're complaining over not receiving a weapon boost spell when you just got a spell list that puts both the Warrior Mage and Moon Mage lists to shame.

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

Clerics should be 'bad' at hiding and doing stealthy things.

Thats kind of where I thought we were headed- Clerics more like War Mages, less like Moon Mages. So we don't have any direct stealt boosts and we lost our perception debuff.





Clerics are just so cuddly you can't get mad at them, until they try to rip your soul out and chew on it like a candy bar.

I wouldn't allow either Revelation or Kertigen's Will to a guild that's 'bad' at stealth-related activities.

-Z

>>3) Paladins are not going anywhere.

In what sense?


-Landros

Also, am I reading too far into this...

Here's a few ground rules we have to work with right now:

2) Skillsets will not be altered at this time.

-Armifer

Or does this mean that at some point in the future skillsets may be altered?

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

The cleric 3.0 list is ridiculously awesome looking. Rather stunned at the list of things they'll be able to do.

So exactly what is their weakness? Lots of warding, aug, debil (including debilitation against skills in their tert set), good TM spells (including AoE), etc...

tl;dr clerics r OP.

>>>So exactly what is their weakness?



If you stop their spells, they can't boost their weapons to kill you. Their TM spells are meant for the undead.

>>I am still relearning systems after a few years hiatus so please forgive any naivete, but where are the holes in the cleric defense?

You may notice a trend in your list: the vast majority of Cleric defense options are active curses and debuffs.

Consider a Cleric defending himself with Huldah's and Soul Bond versus a Moon Mage attempting the same task with CoL and Shear. The Cleric's tools are notably potent, but the Cleric had better arrange to hit first.

-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas

<<the vast majority of Cleric defense options are active curses and debuffs.>>

In other words, the cleric's weakness is he/she has fewer set-it-forget-it types of defenses. While Sanyu is one of these, I see the compromise that it is not a barrier and will not block the first incoming.

Is Spite of Dergati active? It is contested so it would seem to be active, but the description reads almost as if it is passive but also inhibits the cleric's casting.

All in all the 'active defense' is a nice difference in the cleric guild, and I am excited to play with my cleric friends to see how these spells react.

<<Spite of Dergati is the nuclear option of barriers. For as long as the Cleric keeps it active (and unresisted), there's no casting in the room. From anyone.>>

It still follows the new "each target is contested individually" rule though, right? So you could potentially have some people able to cast in the room (because they resisted it), and others unable (because they didn't)? How does it work for people who enter the room after the spell effect is already up, they're contested when they walk in?

Thanks,
-Death's Nemesis Karthor

Ok, love the spell list, but figured I'd throw a few questions out.

OM:
Looks to me like there will be a ton of spells you can put into OM after 3.0 based on what I've read. Have there been any thoughts to extending the top end of the orb size and/or increasing the max mana you can stuff into it in one cast?

Idon's Theft:
Since this spell is listed to store Mind vs Will attacks, will it be a way to train Debilitation Magic outside of combat, or is Debilitation a skill that is planned to only be trainable in combat situations?

Soul Bond: Would this spell be better as an introductory debilitation spell, seems like the spellbook could use one of these.

SaP: Will this spell still have the nifty added feature of being able to put spells into OM without waiting for full-prep? By the way, I love that feature.

Thanks for all your hard work on this stuff. I can't wait to enjoy the fruits of your labors when this all gets released.

-Rambliin




Your spirit is weakened beyond its ability to sustain your body!

A panicked scream pierces the air. "Murderer!" You notice the nearby citizenry looking your way for the moment, before most quickly run off in fear.

>>1) Aesrela Everild - I do not currently have this spell, but from what I understand the attacks pulse one at a time over the course of several seconds. Assuming the feature is maintained, will the spell fall under the same category as a regular "instant" multi-shot spell, favoring accuracy over damage?

AE's bolts will be considered single strikes due to its delayed nature, though I am half-tempted to resurrect the spell's many-volleyed first version. Remember "holy bolts of scuffing", anyone? :P

>>2) Divine Radiance - The spell list noted that a successful cast will amplify incoming holy damage on a target. As there is no holy damage type, I assume this means damage from holy spells and possibly blessed weapons. Is this amplification applicable only to cursed/undead/etc, or any target?

Correct. And any target.

>>Looks to me like there will be a ton of spells you can put into OM after 3.0 based on what I've read. Have there been any thoughts to extending the top end of the orb size and/or increasing the max mana you can stuff into it in one cast?

I fully expect that such details as capacity, difficulties and limits will need to be rebalanced, but I don't know in what direction those will go yet.

>>Soul Bond: Would this spell be better as an introductory debilitation spell, seems like the spellbook could use one of these.

While having an introductory Debilitation spell is a good idea (and one we considered), there can't be more than one introductory spell per book, and Centering seems the more useful choice for a new cleric. (It's intentional that Metamagic and Divine Intervention, as more advanced books, don't contain any.) That said, Soul Sickness will likely be available early on for those who will want to start practicing Debilitation.

>>SaP: Will this spell still have the nifty added feature of being able to put spells into OM without waiting for full-prep?

The full-prep restriction, which has been there because the current held-mana spells have no risk of backfire to speak of, will be going away with OM's shift toward regular spells.

GM Grejuva

>>Answers

Sounds good.

Oh one more question.

>>Soul Sickness
>>Basic Debilitation. Spirit vs Will. Immobilizes and forces kneeling.

When you say Immobilizes, Do you mean Immobilize or do you mean as the spell works now by giving big delicious RTs?


-Rambliin


Your spirit is weakened beyond its ability to sustain your body!

A panicked scream pierces the air. "Murderer!" You notice the nearby citizenry looking your way for the moment, before most quickly run off in fear.

First, awesome lists I've been waiting to see this for awhile. Might make me pull the cleric out of the grave.

A few questions

Ghost Shroud- seeing the new cavaet for barrier spells is that it affects the caster as well: Will this affect the casters TM?

Sanyu Lyba- okay I'm loving the concept of this spell, but I have one concern. Currently a minimum effect hulp lasts a good long while(2 minutes IIRC), now I know this spell won't react constantly but if durations stay the same there is a chance it can lock down an opposing mage passively past the first spell.

Osrel Meraud- I have trouble picturing the use of this, aside from maybe protection from dispels. Aside from the halo example will there be an additional benefit to having it in the orb vs not in orb?

Idon's theft- Is this going to act like dragon's breath in which it is stored and then by some kind of action? (<crude gesture> at <character>)

Is it possible to adjust the names of the following:

Soul Bonding- given its new offensive nature I believe Soul Binding is probably a better name.

Kertigen's Will and Spite of Dergati- Oddly enough, I think swapping the names of these two spells will fall more in line with the nature of each god. Dergati being a god of stealth(earning her spite means bad stealth) and Kertigen being the god of the forge(which metal working and smithing being attributed as opposite of spell research)

Leaping Curse- I would love to see this attributed to some god, as I've always loved that about cleric spellbooks. Something akin to [Dark God]'s breath. Maybe Asketi's Wind? Thinking more Botolf more Harawep, though.

Now a few random comments:

So sad to see the communes go away, but I'm not surprised in the least. I've been one of the few people from the beginning to go wow, these are crazy. Though I'd wager its a % based on something else because they aren't that impressive early on.

POM- I knew it would change, hopefully the mana regen boost is a good one.

>>Alignments- not how I would advocate it to be- but seems workable. Flavius will be going with Kertigen regardless, but I am a little concerned that min/maxing will result in 90% of clerics flocking to 1 or 2 'favored' gods. Just a concern- Kertigen's my god no matter what.

If this is anything like what moon mages and warrior mages go through, I doubt it will have any affect at all on min-maxing your stuff. The environmental(and sect) changes moon mages and warrior mages go through only affect minimum mana by a point or two and doesn't change the overall scale of the spell either. For example if a spell normally has a min mana req of 10 and a max of 30, optimum environments would lower it to a min of 8 and a max of 28. Only moon required spells have any strict requirements to them and thats....minimal at best.


_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton

>>No more roundtime inflicting.

I <3 U

---

Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus

Harawaps Hoppin' Happiness

or more seriously Harawaps Threads



Clerics are just so cuddly you can't get mad at them, until they try to rip your soul out and chew on it like a candy bar.

haraweps snuggly happy friends time spell


_______________________
As good almost kill a man as kill a good book; who kills a man kills a reasonable creature, God's image; but he who destroys a good book, kills reason itself, kills the image of God, as it were in the eye.
-John Milton

Will Shield of Light and the ability to SHAPE SHIELD TO WEAR be changed in any way?

Also, what type of spells do we expect Osrel Meraud to hold?

Osrel Meraud
Esoteric Utility. Stores non-cyclic beneficial spells.

Resurrection
Cyclic Utility. Same.

Will REZZ no longer be able to be placed in OM?

Does "non-cyclic" include "Warding" and "Augmentation" spells such as PFE and MAPP, and will these be able to be put into OM?

>Does "non-cyclic" include "Warding" and "Augmentation" spells such as PFE and MAPP, and will these be able to be put into OM?
>If it's not listed as cyclic than either Grejuva forgot to note it as such, or it can be put into OM.

>Not sure why people seem confused on this point.
not sure why you have to add the extra rudeness, but people will be who they are, I suppose.

so you're saying that my OM will now include:
PFE, MPP, MAPP, Soul Shield, Benediction, Vigil, Auspice.. (all are non-cyclic)

but OM will -NOT- hold spells such as Confound Enemies, REZZ (jeez REZZ is going to be a pain)

>Stores non-cyclic beneficial spells.
This seems wayyyyyy too vague. Currently SOL and Confound Enemies are both Held-Mana spells, and can be put into OM.
in 3.0, SOL is "warding" and Ghost Shroud is "cyclic"

Will SOL no longer be held mana?
What will the point of Osrel Meraud be if it cannot hold Held-Mana spells? (seems useless to put a warding/augmentation spell into OM if you can just cast it normally)

<<Assuming this is part of the OM conversation, invoking spells stored in the orb is the purpose of Abeyant Orison.
Agreed

<<OM will allow us to keep our buffs up without the need to recast them for as long as OM is active. Depending on duration and whether the spell can be refreshed/replaced is going to influence how useful OM is. 3 minute duration spells that need to drop before they can be recast will make OM real nice. 2 Hour long duration that can stacked (like current PFE), not so useful with OM.
I seem to recall that the general trend will be to increase buff duration dramatically. So this might not be a factor for many cleric spells.

I don't have a thought-out suggestion myself on how to make OM more useful in Magic 3.0, but I'm really interested in the subject. OM has always been my favorite cleric spell from a design stand-point. As it's been discussed before, maybe having your spells in the OM will help to reduce the chance of your buffs from being dispelled. I don't know how that fits into the spirit of the spell; I always liked how OM (plus some infusion) helped to make your spells stronger or better.

Nikpack