>>The last time Tallis spoke on the issue, she pretty clearly stated the Guild does not recognize any pantheon or "god" outside of the 13/39, and specifically referred to those two as false gods.<<

I do believe that is still her personal stance and the stance of the guild.

Should be quite the interesting one as well. nothing like religion to heat up controversy. As my "family" have various beliefs on the subject <all the way from the dragonpriest-leaning necromancer-to-be, the prydaen cleric <who now will finally be able to worship her own gods>, the dwarven damaris & kertigen cleric who is for the most part tolerant of others beliefs but is very opposed to the gorbesh "gods" or their followers -- well, it should be exciting.

By the way, the "intolerance" exibited by Tallis is not uncharacteristic. After all, religion fashions such as grand inquisitors and mullahs alike. So for her to be "intolerant" is quite IC for someone of her stature. I didn't read an intolerance of the western gods - only the desire to convert their followers - unlike that which she exibited towards the followers of the dragon.

By the way, in the log is exhibited her statement of worship of any other than the 13 being not tolerated within the guildhall. Obviously this doesn't always exist within the mechanics. As my cleric in TF has received devotion by reciting a prayer in praise of the dragon within the chapel of that guild itself. :-)






<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>

well, according to the transcript, she opposes worship of anything other than the 39 within the guild.


<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>

Oh I am still trying to figure this all out. On the one hand, Tallis never told Flavius about her stand, so I can have him be ignorant as a rock regarding her(and apparently the guild's position).

On the other hand....once Flavius does become aware should he be assisting those that proclaim themselves followers of the Prydaen gods? I will have to think about this.

I think it could be great fun to demand that people proclaim their godly affiliations prior to providing assistance. It used to open up all sorts of great dialogue- usually would go something like this.

Flavius to corpse: Are ye a follower of the 13? What god do ye owe yer allegiance to?
friend of corpse: whisper to Flavius 'he is off getting a drink right now- why the hell you want that information'
time passes by:
friend of corpse: This is stupid, just resurrect him or you will regret it
corpse: Am I alive yet?
Flavius to corpse: Are ye a follower of the 13? What god do ye owe yer allegiance to?
corpse: what kind of *@% is this? I don't have to tell you anything- just resurrect me so I can get back to the game
friend of corpse: whisper: dude this is stupid, if you don't help him I will kill you
Flavius to corpse: I will not aid those who do not follow the 13, proclaim your allegiance now or forsake my aid.
friend of corpse kills Flavius/tries to kill Flavius
friend of corpse kicks Flavius's corpse and looks for another cleric/ friend of corpse runs off and his 'big brother' comes back to finish off the job.

Its going to be good times.




"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

>>Oh I am still trying to figure this all out. On the one hand, Tallis never told Flavius about her stand, so I can have him be ignorant as a rock regarding her(and apparently the guild's position).

I think it would have been hard to make 30th circle without having become intimately familiar with the guild's position on the Western Pantheon. Granted, it's completely possible, but I'm pretty sure Flavius isn't an isolated loner of a hermit.

My opinion would be that any cleric should be expected to be aware of Tallis and her guild's stand on the issue. But then again, they should be able to recite the names, avatars, and principle themes of each of the 39 without batting an eye, too. =P

>>On the other hand....once Flavius does become aware should he be assisting those that proclaim themselves followers of the Prydaen gods? I will have to think about this.

I can see two sides to this.

One is the carebear solution, which most people (including my cleric, if I ever bring him back) will probably take. This basically calls for absolutely no change with respect to how they've acted up until now. I can easily come up with half a dozen reasonable justifications for this, but I won't post them until people ask.

The other is infinitely more interesting: the militant, partisan, crusading solution: and I think people can see the essences of these, too.

A compromise would be something like raising someone on the condition that they go and get a favor from an Immortal. Of course, that's predicated on being able to back up any threat you bring to bear, but that's really your problem. =P


---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin

>>Latest game mechanic raises some moral questions and opens up roleplay potential without providing concrete answers on how to play a Cleric "correctly." Good God, what where the GMs thinking?!

Maybe they'll release Necromancers next.


---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin

"A compromise would be something like raising someone on the condition that they go and get a favor from an Immortal. Of course, that's predicated on being able to back up any threat you bring to bear, but that's really your problem. =P"

I actually for several years required characters to promise to go get a favor from Kertigen if I raised them. It actually provoked quite abit of interesting dialogue, threats of violence etc. Once I lost the original resurrection I just haven't been able to muster the motivation to be that militant again.

"I think it would have been hard to make 30th circle without having become intimately familiar with the guild's position on the Western Pantheon. Granted, it's completely possible, but I'm pretty sure Flavius isn't an isolated loner of a hermit."

I never have claimed to be much of a scholar(me the player) regarding in game lore, but other than the post of Tallis talking about the other gods being heathens, I don't remember any such discussion before. I do remember many, many heated discussions on the boards about the relevance of other gods. Am I missing/forgetting some speeches or books by the guild leadership that discusses this? Really, if there is a ton out there that Flavius should know of, that I the player of just haven't bothered with, or have forgotten, I would love to know about it.

"My opinion would be that any cleric should be expected to be aware of Tallis and her guild's stand on the issue. But then again, they should be able to recite the names, avatars, and principle themes of each of the 39 without batting an eye, too. =P"

Flavius can certainly recite all of that- just takes a few minutes for him to recall all the facts from his vast electronic memory. Personally, I dig for notes- I doubt if I could even recite the names of all 39 without missing quite a few, let alone all avatars etc. Thats the wonderful difference between a character and a player.

"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

>> I never have claimed to be much of a scholar(me the player) regarding in game lore, but other than the post of Tallis talking about the other gods being heathens, I don't remember any such discussion before.

I am a lore nerd and I still found her stance slightly surprising at the time, particularly the bit about the All-God.

Of course it makes some sense in retrospect, but no, it's never really stated directly in-game. Maybe it should be.

---

Rev. Reene

Me: Are...are you listening to Britney Spears?
Idon: You have Evanescence on your playlist. You don't get to judge me.

my characters on the other hand are old enough to be able to remember getting favors on aesry before a certain altar was dedicated to a specific god<dess>; and it was my position at the time that the altar in question was one for the all-god.

To my cleric, his position on the official guilds stance is, that it doesn't matter so much which gods one gets favors from, as long as the guild itself continues to enjoy the offerings and tithes of the masses, and the official support of the state. To him, Damaris is very real, him attributing his survival as a young dwarf to that deity -- as is Kertigen, the god of his people. The rest of the pantheon have at one time or another <through quests> made themselves "known" to him. And he doesn't altogether agree with Tallis on her stance on the western deities, although he respects her position. He does agree with her in opposition to the dragonpriests and the gorbesh gods however.

<schvartz and kadosh obviously don't see eye-to-eye on the dragonpriests>


<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>

>>Personally, I dig for notes- I doubt if I could even recite the names of all 39 without missing quite a few, let alone all avatars etc. Thats the wonderful difference between a character and a player.

I think that's perfectly fine. The fact that you have notes at all already makes you, as a player, better. Most people don't even think to go to the website.

>>Really, if there is a ton out there that Flavius should know of, that I the player of just haven't bothered with, or have forgotten, I would love to know about it.

<muses> Well, you and Reene seem more right than not. I'll apologize for that. The supremacy of the 13, as the 13... sure. I think that should be common knowledge. But the stance regarding the western pantheon, perhaps not so well known.


---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin

>When I think back to the distant past when the original Hand of Tenemlor was released, I am fairly certain there were some specific acknowledgements of Tenemlor as at least a minor diety. The spell itself was modeled after Tenemlor, up to including the withered hand. I think it would be wierd indeed for the Clerics guild to model and name a spell after a god of a pantheon that they consider heretical.

Which is exactly why Bambina took what Tallis said (in it's entirety) as a joke. The guild was under Tallis' jurisdiction at the time Hand of Tenemlor was released, and it seems rather odd that after years and years of acknowledging the Western gods to suddenly decide that the only gods to be worshipped are the 13/39.


Bambina

Yes, that must be it...

I can't speak for Tallis or who's responsible for her but your right Maelshyve must have captured her. Because it would not be possible for someones beliefs to change or morph over time. That NEVER happens.




GM Lirrak
Cleric Guru