A little while back Armifer mentioned something about Clerics having Benediction because stat boosting is something they're supposed to specialize in, a la WMs and TM spells. Along this line I'd love to see a spell similar to Benediction but for the mental stats. Keep the difficulty and tier in line with Bene; even though it would be fourth tier make SAP (second tier) one of the prereqs since it's a sort of blessing of the brain and this builds on that concept.
Order the bonuses as Wisdom, Discipline, and then Intelligence. Reason being is that Wisdom seems the most Clerical (main SvSp stat, reduces commune sense RT) followed closely by Discipline (about half the Discipline training spots are near Cleric areas like the Crossing guild and Haven Temple) and Intelligence for its role in spellcasting (go go metamagic). All three also play a role in spirit health besides Charisma, which we can already boost with Vigil.
Thoughts?
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
TELGER
MASON19
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 01:38 PM CST
I like the idea but I doubt there's any way this would ever come to fruition unless it was severely scaled back compared to benediction.
The reason I say this is because with benediction you can already boost your strength/reflex/agility all by 15. Add in vigil's boost to charisma, and you can now boost four stats. If this were allowed, you'd essentially be able to boost your entire stat line (except for stamina) by +15 (assuming equal power to benediction) at will with 15 minute durations.
Cleric's can also temp learn courage with zero chance to blow off their arms when cast. It's also very difficult to lose a spell with that low of a mana threshold with PoM and MF. Assuming benediction + vigil + courage + this new spell idea, you'd solely be able to boost every single stat by +13-15.
Don't take this as an insult to your idea, I just don't think the GM's will allow that to happen.
The reason I say this is because with benediction you can already boost your strength/reflex/agility all by 15. Add in vigil's boost to charisma, and you can now boost four stats. If this were allowed, you'd essentially be able to boost your entire stat line (except for stamina) by +15 (assuming equal power to benediction) at will with 15 minute durations.
Cleric's can also temp learn courage with zero chance to blow off their arms when cast. It's also very difficult to lose a spell with that low of a mana threshold with PoM and MF. Assuming benediction + vigil + courage + this new spell idea, you'd solely be able to boost every single stat by +13-15.
Don't take this as an insult to your idea, I just don't think the GM's will allow that to happen.
ALDEN
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 01:51 PM CST
Thilan,
I think its a reasonable proposal but I would make this a 5th tier spell, with higher difficulty. We need more higher tier spells for learning magic, and it would make the spell more justifiable.
I think its a reasonable proposal but I would make this a 5th tier spell, with higher difficulty. We need more higher tier spells for learning magic, and it would make the spell more justifiable.
TELGER
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 02:19 PM CST
>>Don't take this as an insult to your idea, I just don't think the GM's will allow that to happen.
I don't, it just seems if we're supposed to be good at stat boosting then we should be able to boost most if not all of them to varying degrees. Right now we can boost four stats while other guilds can boost six. And as far as power of the boost other stat boosters go above 15, so I don't think hard capping it at 15/stat would be that big a deal.
>>I think its a reasonable proposal but I would make this a 5th tier spell, with higher difficulty.
I'd be fine with making it fifth tier requiring Bene and SAP as well.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
I don't, it just seems if we're supposed to be good at stat boosting then we should be able to boost most if not all of them to varying degrees. Right now we can boost four stats while other guilds can boost six. And as far as power of the boost other stat boosters go above 15, so I don't think hard capping it at 15/stat would be that big a deal.
>>I think its a reasonable proposal but I would make this a 5th tier spell, with higher difficulty.
I'd be fine with making it fifth tier requiring Bene and SAP as well.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
LORD-RAHL
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 02:26 PM CST
Uh yeah. About that. Moon Mages can boost six, as long as it's only two at a time, isn't str/stam, and you go through an elaborate casting process each time.
There is a price for flexibility, and it's a fairly high one (Particularly given that I'd say 90% of IoE casts are just set to ref/agil).
About the only way I could see this flying is if it was an either/or with Bene and you couldn't have both up at the same time.
Because otherwise Bene alone makes stat boosting sorta a cleric thing.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
There is a price for flexibility, and it's a fairly high one (Particularly given that I'd say 90% of IoE casts are just set to ref/agil).
About the only way I could see this flying is if it was an either/or with Bene and you couldn't have both up at the same time.
Because otherwise Bene alone makes stat boosting sorta a cleric thing.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 02:37 PM CST
I'm going to have to fall on the con side of this as well. The notion of a mental equivalent to Benediction makes me salivate like a dog in a meat processing plant, but it smells of OP to me for a few reasons.
I can think of three examples of abilities with comparable stat bonuses: Benediction, Invocation of Energy, and Dragon Dance. Dragon Dance is the end-all, be-all of Barbarian abilities and may very well be due for a hasrh beating with the broad side of the nerf bat; Invocation of Energy has considerable restrictions Benediction does not, which LORD-RAHL already covered in length. Benediction is the standard for all magical stat boosters.
But really... think about it. Clerics can already bonus their magic skills with SAP, make mana costs much easier with POM, and now you want a huge boost to mental skills too? That would pretty much guarantee a victory in any stat contest for little cost.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
I can think of three examples of abilities with comparable stat bonuses: Benediction, Invocation of Energy, and Dragon Dance. Dragon Dance is the end-all, be-all of Barbarian abilities and may very well be due for a hasrh beating with the broad side of the nerf bat; Invocation of Energy has considerable restrictions Benediction does not, which LORD-RAHL already covered in length. Benediction is the standard for all magical stat boosters.
But really... think about it. Clerics can already bonus their magic skills with SAP, make mana costs much easier with POM, and now you want a huge boost to mental skills too? That would pretty much guarantee a victory in any stat contest for little cost.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
ROBERTDH
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 02:39 PM CST
Held-mana mental booster?
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
"Magic has rules and so does posting on these forums." -Annwyl
LORD-RAHL
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 02:40 PM CST
>>Held-mana mental booster?
Due to OM that's not much different.
And if for some reason it doesn't go in OM - It'd be fairly hilarious since for the most part the time when you want a mental booster is when you're spell casting.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
Due to OM that's not much different.
And if for some reason it doesn't go in OM - It'd be fairly hilarious since for the most part the time when you want a mental booster is when you're spell casting.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
ALDEN
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 02:45 PM CST
Armifer in the past said that there he had no specific objection to another clerical stat boost. The question then becomes how much is going to be allowable?
Frankly, clerics were extremely lucky to get Benediction. I wouldn't be surprised if GM's said no to a Benediction style boost for a variety of reasons, as much as anything else, I don't think we will ever see as big a boost as Benediction in one spell again. But why not suggest it and leave it to the GM's to decide rather than say its too much ourselves?
There really aren't many more area's left for Clerical spells to go. We have a big glaring gap by not having a decent general magic barrier. We aren't going to get anymore stealth, perception or defense boosts(except maybe parry). We really don't have much need for another TM spell. I would like to see some AOE disablers or debuffs.
So is left? I don't care whether its a single stat buffing spell that caps the stat boost, a buff that boosts 2 higher than Benediction, or a single spell more like Benediction, but stat boosts are one area that we haven't been told we shouldn't expect.
Frankly, clerics were extremely lucky to get Benediction. I wouldn't be surprised if GM's said no to a Benediction style boost for a variety of reasons, as much as anything else, I don't think we will ever see as big a boost as Benediction in one spell again. But why not suggest it and leave it to the GM's to decide rather than say its too much ourselves?
There really aren't many more area's left for Clerical spells to go. We have a big glaring gap by not having a decent general magic barrier. We aren't going to get anymore stealth, perception or defense boosts(except maybe parry). We really don't have much need for another TM spell. I would like to see some AOE disablers or debuffs.
So is left? I don't care whether its a single stat buffing spell that caps the stat boost, a buff that boosts 2 higher than Benediction, or a single spell more like Benediction, but stat boosts are one area that we haven't been told we shouldn't expect.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 03:03 PM CST
>>So what is left?
Spiritual combat outside of SICK and SOS would be nice.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
Spiritual combat outside of SICK and SOS would be nice.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
ALDEN
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 03:09 PM CST
Held mana spells for primary mages are essentially useless, and Armifer said he would not be inclined to make a significant stat booster OM compatable.
Looking at Ranger and Paladin buff's, they can buff 5 and 4 stats respectively. Am I reading correctly that Rangers can buff reflex with both SOTT and CS for a maximum possible buff of +33? Held mana for sure, but thats incredible if Elanthipedia is correct.
Looking at the other buffs, I think a more likely scenario is a 2 stat buff, which I would prefer to a 3 stat buff that was watered down and weaker than Benediction.
"Invocation of Energy has considerable restrictions Benediction does not"
Ummm yeah- which was done on purpose. Benediction is considered the premier stat buff spell. IOE had to be less powerful or more restrictive for the same reason PS couldn't be MB.
Looking at Ranger and Paladin buff's, they can buff 5 and 4 stats respectively. Am I reading correctly that Rangers can buff reflex with both SOTT and CS for a maximum possible buff of +33? Held mana for sure, but thats incredible if Elanthipedia is correct.
Looking at the other buffs, I think a more likely scenario is a 2 stat buff, which I would prefer to a 3 stat buff that was watered down and weaker than Benediction.
"Invocation of Energy has considerable restrictions Benediction does not"
Ummm yeah- which was done on purpose. Benediction is considered the premier stat buff spell. IOE had to be less powerful or more restrictive for the same reason PS couldn't be MB.
LORD-RAHL
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 03:12 PM CST
Instead PS is Dazzle with less restrictions :)
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
SEND[Abasha] It warms my heart to see three people die for a cupcake.
TELGER
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 05:16 PM CST
>>Uh yeah. About that. Moon Mages can boost six, as long as it's only two at a time, isn't str/stam, and you go through an elaborate casting process each time.
True, but I wasn't talking about Moon Mages...
(PS you're supposed to be one of us Clerics on these boards, Mozzik, stop comparing everything to Lunards ;P)
>>But why not suggest it and leave it to the GM's to decide rather than say its too much ourselves?
Precisely my plan. ^_^
If Bene is going to be the only triple stat booster allowed in the game then I'd settle for a capped Discipline/Wisdom booster.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
True, but I wasn't talking about Moon Mages...
(PS you're supposed to be one of us Clerics on these boards, Mozzik, stop comparing everything to Lunards ;P)
>>But why not suggest it and leave it to the GM's to decide rather than say its too much ourselves?
Precisely my plan. ^_^
If Bene is going to be the only triple stat booster allowed in the game then I'd settle for a capped Discipline/Wisdom booster.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
JOHNSONS781
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 05:45 PM CST
My wish list for Cleric spells:
1) A DFA spell that I can use in town/in tournaments/in 95% of the situations where I'd want to use it on another player in general
2) A Spell vs Strength spell that does something cool, maybe an immobilizer?? Give it a sweet name like The Angry Fist of Trothfang and have it conjure a fist that punches someone in the gut
3) Another bird-based spell, effect is not important, I just like shooting birds at people
1) A DFA spell that I can use in town/in tournaments/in 95% of the situations where I'd want to use it on another player in general
2) A Spell vs Strength spell that does something cool, maybe an immobilizer?? Give it a sweet name like The Angry Fist of Trothfang and have it conjure a fist that punches someone in the gut
3) Another bird-based spell, effect is not important, I just like shooting birds at people
TEHNECRO
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 06:50 PM CST
Wish list in no particular order:
Barrier spell, AOE disabler (preferably SvSp), Dispel/Single target cast of Meraud's Cry (Unlikely, so low priority to me), Wisdom stat booster, Spiritual combat expansion.
Grejuva, what's your wish list, regardless of what you feel is realistic?
Barrier spell, AOE disabler (preferably SvSp), Dispel/Single target cast of Meraud's Cry (Unlikely, so low priority to me), Wisdom stat booster, Spiritual combat expansion.
Grejuva, what's your wish list, regardless of what you feel is realistic?
NERDINSTINCTS
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 07:48 PM CST
Maybe we could just beg and plead to have AE changed to DFA? It already comes from above, carries a significant downside (no spamming due to spirit loss). Heck, i'd even be fine with less bolts if it was DFA.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 08:02 PM CST
AE does far too much to be made DFA on top of it. You'd be better off asking for a whole new DFA-against-living spell, keeping in mind that you'll probably need to have drawbacks similar to LB and Burn.
Rev. Reene
"The Philosophers are all about freeing themselves from the shackles of mortality. And pants." - Armifer
Rev. Reene
"The Philosophers are all about freeing themselves from the shackles of mortality. And pants." - Armifer
JULIAN
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 08:14 PM CST
DFA may not have many drawbacks at all once Combat 3.0 rolls through.
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png
- Mazrian
The Flying Company
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/huldahspal/flyingcompany.png
FBC
Re: Mental Benediction
12/31/2009 10:18 PM CST
>>AE does far too much to be made DFA on top of it.
Agreed, AE would be ridiculously OP if it was DFA too.
Agreed, AE would be ridiculously OP if it was DFA too.
ALDEN
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 12:13 AM CST
I actually like AE just fine in its current form- and I am eating my words from about 2 years ago saying that. If we were to get a DFA usable against other characters, I would think it would be a stand alone. But I am not sure how much we really need one. Think how folks are already using Horn more than HE? HE is likely to be far more effective than any new DFA we get against the living. It seems to me that the primary benefit of DFA would be for tournaments.
I would prefer HOT to be able to be knock weapons and shields out of creatures hands as an additional benefit. Then HOT would still have a niche and we could deal with shield using creatures just fine.
I would prefer HOT to be able to be knock weapons and shields out of creatures hands as an additional benefit. Then HOT would still have a niche and we could deal with shield using creatures just fine.
TEHNECRO
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 12:47 AM CST
AE used to be DFA and was deemed too ridiculous, appropriately. It pulls people from hiding, and follows them around, and even works indoors now. Not to be used for killing something if it uses shield though. It's got its place.
FOU is great versus living and other players as a DFA (or DFB), however niche it may be.
Just remember to protect thyself from evil. ^_^
FOU is great versus living and other players as a DFA (or DFB), however niche it may be.
Just remember to protect thyself from evil. ^_^
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 09:09 AM CST
>>Barrier spell
In what sense do you want a barrier spell? We have like eighty of them.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
In what sense do you want a barrier spell? We have like eighty of them.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
TELGER
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 09:39 AM CST
>>In what sense do you want a barrier spell? We have like eighty of them.
We don't have a general magic barrier like Shear/Seal of Deflection or Soldier's Prayer, only specialized ones in PFE, CoE and SoS. If we're the metamagic guild it makes sense for us to have one and is what I think Spite of Dergati is supposed to be.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
We don't have a general magic barrier like Shear/Seal of Deflection or Soldier's Prayer, only specialized ones in PFE, CoE and SoS. If we're the metamagic guild it makes sense for us to have one and is what I think Spite of Dergati is supposed to be.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 09:44 AM CST
>>We don't have a general magic barrier like Shear/Seal of Deflection or Soldier's Prayer, only specialized ones in PFE, CoE and SoS.
You forgot MPP, which is a general barrier spell, only for physical strikes. But I see, you want a magical one... I certainly wouldn't mind that.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
You forgot MPP, which is a general barrier spell, only for physical strikes. But I see, you want a magical one... I certainly wouldn't mind that.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
TELGER
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 09:49 AM CST
>>You forgot MPP, which is a general barrier spell, only for physical strikes. But I see, you want a magical one... I certainly wouldn't mind that.
I didn't because everyone's been talking about general barrier in the sense of magic barrier. It's something that's labeled and handled as such on a system level. What you're talking about is more properly called a damage reducer, which we're golden on.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
I didn't because everyone's been talking about general barrier in the sense of magic barrier. It's something that's labeled and handled as such on a system level. What you're talking about is more properly called a damage reducer, which we're golden on.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 09:52 AM CST
>>I didn't because everyone's been talking about general barrier in the sense of magic barrier. It's something that's labeled and handled as such on a system level. What you're talking about is more properly called a damage reducer, which we're golden on.
Barrier --> reduces power
That is, at least, always how I have defined a barrier spell: one that creates, you know, a barrier, whether that barrier repels physical attacks or magic attacks. I can see the point of differentiating between magical and physical, however, so if popular lexicon defines Shear/SOD as barrier spells and MPP as a damage reduction spell, that works as well as anything else.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
Barrier --> reduces power
That is, at least, always how I have defined a barrier spell: one that creates, you know, a barrier, whether that barrier repels physical attacks or magic attacks. I can see the point of differentiating between magical and physical, however, so if popular lexicon defines Shear/SOD as barrier spells and MPP as a damage reduction spell, that works as well as anything else.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
TELGER
Re: Mental Benediction
01/01/2010 10:10 AM CST
>>so if popular lexicon defines Shear/SOD as barrier spells and MPP as a damage reduction spell, that works as well as anything else.
Like I said it's not popular lexicon, it's how it's defined in the system; your definition is technically incorrect. Ssra and Armifer have explained that a barrier spell works like "Spell + Mana - SP/SoD/PS/PFE/SoS/CoE/AC/etc.=Spell Power" before the effect is applied to a creature or a PC, which is when something like MPP/CoE/Scream Defiance/Berserk steps in to reduce the applied damage. Hope that clears it up for you.
Bottom line is that Clerics need a general anti-magic spell.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
Like I said it's not popular lexicon, it's how it's defined in the system; your definition is technically incorrect. Ssra and Armifer have explained that a barrier spell works like "Spell + Mana - SP/SoD/PS/PFE/SoS/CoE/AC/etc.=Spell Power" before the effect is applied to a creature or a PC, which is when something like MPP/CoE/Scream Defiance/Berserk steps in to reduce the applied damage. Hope that clears it up for you.
Bottom line is that Clerics need a general anti-magic spell.
~Thilan
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
JMF90
Re: Mental Benediction
01/07/2010 08:01 AM CST
>Uh yeah. About that. Moon Mages can boost six, as long as it's only two at a time, isn't str/stam, and you go through an elaborate casting process each time.
It's not really fair to compare anything to IoE, the casting process for IoE is out of line with every other stat boost in game.
It will cost you 444 TDPs to raise your Strength from 99 to 100.
It's not really fair to compare anything to IoE, the casting process for IoE is out of line with every other stat boost in game.
It will cost you 444 TDPs to raise your Strength from 99 to 100.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Mental Benediction
01/07/2010 03:58 PM CST
>>It's not really fair to compare anything to IoE, the casting process for IoE is out of line with every other stat boost in game.
It's versatility is also out of line for normal stat boosts, so it all works out IMO.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
It's versatility is also out of line for normal stat boosts, so it all works out IMO.
"I hate you so much right now." -GM Armifer
JMF90
Re: Mental Benediction
01/07/2010 04:17 PM CST
>so it all works out IMO.
...no, it really doesn't.
It will cost you 444 TDPs to raise your Strength from 99 to 100.
...no, it really doesn't.
It will cost you 444 TDPs to raise your Strength from 99 to 100.
ALDEN
