Previous
So a week or two ago Armifer posted saying that he hopes to have 2 new spells by the end of the year -- both of them Spell vs Spirit.
A lot of people assumed that these spells will be attack spells and do damage, specifically damage to the spirit. I'm having a hard time reconciling the old Spell vs Spirit (which did damage) with the fact that lethal spells must use TM, hybrid spells 'will no longer be implemented / are being phased out, whatever', and contested spells don't use TM. How, then, can you have a Spell vs Spirit spell which can kill something?
Can we get some more details on what these spells will be like? There seems to be some confusion.
My thinking is that best case assuming they're attack spells Winds of Asketi (assuming it's one of the spells) would work something like this:
Imagine fire rain. Now instead of every pulse doing fire damage, half the pulses do TM checks for cold damage -- the other half of the pulses do Spell vs Spirit checks for spirit / fatigue damage.
My assumption is that the spells will work similar to that, if they are even lethal in the first place. This all of course assumes that spirit isn't rewritten to be more than just a secondary hitpoint pool.
TERKOWITZM
LIURIDR
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 01:04 PM CDT
Yeah, I'm a bit confused about the SvSpirit // TM component to be lethal issue. Would it be possible for us to find out which two spells are being worked on? Or a little clarification over whether they'll be lethal attack spells or contested debuffs? Hints, teasers, etc?
ALDEN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 01:47 PM CDT
My guess is some sort of contested spell vs lethal. The lethal part I would imagine would still be an issue with the departure time. But of course this is just my guess.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
LIURIDR
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 01:50 PM CDT
Right now about all we have are guesses anyway. I keep hoping we'll get some kind of idea of what to look forward to.
SCHWARTZH6
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 02:04 PM CDT
I don't know if someone already suggested this (or maybe this is what winds of asketi is supposed to do, I can't remember) but I'd love to see an area spell vs spirit spell that stripped away defenses of everyone not in your group, kind of lick MALE. I'm not quite sure how it would work or be justified, but I like the idea.
~Player of "One of the Caels."
Queen of Non-Sequitors
~Player of "One of the Caels."
Queen of Non-Sequitors
SCHWARTZH6
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 02:05 PM CDT
like not lick. meh
~Player of "One of the Caels."
Queen of Non-Sequitors
~Player of "One of the Caels."
Queen of Non-Sequitors
DEVAN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 02:15 PM CDT
I strongly doubt anything without a TM component is going to get lethality bits. It's more likely going to look like Lethargy in effect.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
DR-GREJUVA
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 02:26 PM CDT
No, lethal spirit spells, which must be TM, are not coming back yet; though this is one step closer. The initial re-release of SvSp is going to involve a very basic disabler.
GM Grejuva
GM Grejuva
LIURIDR
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 02:32 PM CDT
Thanks for the quick response, Grejuva! Are you able to give us any hints/teasers about this disabler or clues as to what the second spell Armifer mentioned will be?
TERKOWITZM
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 02:39 PM CDT
>No, lethal spirit spells, which must be TM, are not coming back yet; though this is one step closer. The initial re-release of SvSp is going to involve a very basic disabler.
Castable via Vigil link, I hope :P
Glad to hear I wasn't insane -- disappointing to hear that neither will be lethal -- but glad to hear that they'll come back eventually.
Castable via Vigil link, I hope :P
Glad to hear I wasn't insane -- disappointing to hear that neither will be lethal -- but glad to hear that they'll come back eventually.
DEVAN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/18/2008 02:44 PM CDT
>cast boffo
You reach out and grab Boffo's soul within your fist, squeezing tightly. Boffo starts and slowly begins to scream as he falls to his knees.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
You reach out and grab Boffo's soul within your fist, squeezing tightly. Boffo starts and slowly begins to scream as he falls to his knees.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 01:46 AM CDT
Since we are getting the Spell versus Spirit contest ready for prime time, I want to get your opinions on something I'm thinking of doing: converting some of your existing WvW spells over to SvSp.
The Rules:
1: Spells that directly screw with the target's magical abilities are WvW. Spellcasting is a psychic action, you need to crush your target's mental defenses to muck with it.
2: Phelim's Sanction will remain WvW, largely because it's to your benefit to have disablers spread across multiple contests.
The rest are fair game.
Is this something you would care to see? If so, do you have a preference of which contested spells should make the switch?
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
The Rules:
1: Spells that directly screw with the target's magical abilities are WvW. Spellcasting is a psychic action, you need to crush your target's mental defenses to muck with it.
2: Phelim's Sanction will remain WvW, largely because it's to your benefit to have disablers spread across multiple contests.
The rest are fair game.
Is this something you would care to see? If so, do you have a preference of which contested spells should make the switch?
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 02:07 AM CDT
When making a judgment like this, it would help a lot to know which stats are used in spell vs. spirit contests. It might bring out a bit of personal bias but it would be useful to know when making suggestions.
Rev. Reene
A drunken cleric says, "Huldah. He is one mean poker player, I hear."
A drunken cleric says, "He cheats, of course."
A drunken cleric says, "Phelimmm. He doesn't cheat. Stupid, if you ask me."
Rev. Reene
A drunken cleric says, "Huldah. He is one mean poker player, I hear."
A drunken cleric says, "He cheats, of course."
A drunken cleric says, "Phelimmm. He doesn't cheat. Stupid, if you ask me."
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 02:13 AM CDT
Spell versus Spirit is principally influenced by Wisdom and Charisma, with a touch of Discipline for spice. Attacker and defender use the same stats.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
TELGER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 09:03 AM CDT
Since Clerical disablers are solely WvW I'd say switch some over, particularly since SvSp is a close cousin (Wis instead of Intel). This will allow for options in disabling while the similar stats allow TDPs to be used similarly for the same effect.
So according to the rules HulP and PS will stay WvW. This leaves CoZ, Male and KW. Thematically I can't really see CoZ affecting the target's spirit, but I can see both Male and KW being converted. Actually, would it be possible to turn Male into a hybrid of the two? For example, curse off/def would remain WvW but a general curse would now be SvSp. If so I'd say do that and switch KW as well. With the two planned SvSp spells this will give Clerics 3 WvW disablers, 3 that are SvSp, and one that can be utilized either way.
~Thilan
So according to the rules HulP and PS will stay WvW. This leaves CoZ, Male and KW. Thematically I can't really see CoZ affecting the target's spirit, but I can see both Male and KW being converted. Actually, would it be possible to turn Male into a hybrid of the two? For example, curse off/def would remain WvW but a general curse would now be SvSp. If so I'd say do that and switch KW as well. With the two planned SvSp spells this will give Clerics 3 WvW disablers, 3 that are SvSp, and one that can be utilized either way.
~Thilan
DEVAN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 12:07 PM CDT
>>Spell versus Spirit is principally influenced by Wisdom and Charisma, with a touch of Discipline for spice. Attacker and defender use the same stats.
<rubs head> Interesting. I don't know of an appreciable difference in most people's Int and Wis stats.
>>Is this something you would care to see? If so, do you have a preference of which contested spells should make the switch?
It sounds like a good idea, but I honestly don't see any specific reason to switch over any of them.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
<rubs head> Interesting. I don't know of an appreciable difference in most people's Int and Wis stats.
>>Is this something you would care to see? If so, do you have a preference of which contested spells should make the switch?
It sounds like a good idea, but I honestly don't see any specific reason to switch over any of them.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
TERKOWITZM
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 01:48 PM CDT
I don't really see any reason to switch any of them. MAYBE Kertigen's Will, but Malediction / CoZ seem very much 'vs will' based on their descriptions when you cast them.
What's the purpose of spell vs spirit anyway? It sounds similar to Spell vs Will in that it's comprised mostly of mental stats in the contest (yes I realize the mix is different and that it's wisdom instead of int). So, what's the vision for it? That might give a better idea as to which spells should be converted.
What's the purpose of spell vs spirit anyway? It sounds similar to Spell vs Will in that it's comprised mostly of mental stats in the contest (yes I realize the mix is different and that it's wisdom instead of int). So, what's the vision for it? That might give a better idea as to which spells should be converted.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 02:36 PM CDT
In our setting we embrace a modified version of the Cartesian Split. We say that our characters' body, mind, and soul are three distinct attributes that, while they interact in mortals, can exist seperately. Something can have a mind but not be ensoulled, or be a mindless, disembodied spirit, or what have you. Over the years this has informed the notion that Clerics (and most likely Paladins) should have an attack mode that reflects targeting the soul.
Game design wise, Spell versus Spirit has three major merits. First, it increases the visibility of the Wisdom stat through making it the major contributor of an attack mode. Second, SvSp adds to the diversity of attack modes in the game -- something that many players said they consider important during the TM change. Finally, it will eventually pave the way to do more with the spirit health statistic. While spirit health is by no means useless, for most players it's redundant with vitality and fatigue, only becoming a significant factor for the few people who have abilities that spend it as a currency, or who fight creatures specifically designed to decrease it.
Spell versus Spirit conceptually covers two different groups of effects:
1: Obviously, spells that directly target the soul. Attacking the soul can (as a TM hybrid) lead to spirit loss and death. In addition, debuffs can be described in terms of inflicting "soul" sensations in the target: causing the target to cower in the Immortals' terrible glory, or distracted and despirited by a barren sensation where their heart and soul should be feeding them life. In these cases, we're carefully trying to walk a line between cognitive trickery (WvW territory) and the sort of overwhelming, gut reactions that are classically associated with religion.
2: Spells that direct divine / spiritual forces against the target. If we're cursing you because we're taking a tiny element of Kertigen's glory / energy / attention / symbolism and using it to beat the stuffing out of you, that is something that would be resisted with the target's soul rather than his mind. Bear in mind that the majority of Holy spells do not directly engage the Immortals, though. We can argue that Kertigen's Will is true to its name, or that it's a psychic spell that Clerics named after Kertigen because he's an awesome guy.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
Game design wise, Spell versus Spirit has three major merits. First, it increases the visibility of the Wisdom stat through making it the major contributor of an attack mode. Second, SvSp adds to the diversity of attack modes in the game -- something that many players said they consider important during the TM change. Finally, it will eventually pave the way to do more with the spirit health statistic. While spirit health is by no means useless, for most players it's redundant with vitality and fatigue, only becoming a significant factor for the few people who have abilities that spend it as a currency, or who fight creatures specifically designed to decrease it.
Spell versus Spirit conceptually covers two different groups of effects:
1: Obviously, spells that directly target the soul. Attacking the soul can (as a TM hybrid) lead to spirit loss and death. In addition, debuffs can be described in terms of inflicting "soul" sensations in the target: causing the target to cower in the Immortals' terrible glory, or distracted and despirited by a barren sensation where their heart and soul should be feeding them life. In these cases, we're carefully trying to walk a line between cognitive trickery (WvW territory) and the sort of overwhelming, gut reactions that are classically associated with religion.
2: Spells that direct divine / spiritual forces against the target. If we're cursing you because we're taking a tiny element of Kertigen's glory / energy / attention / symbolism and using it to beat the stuffing out of you, that is something that would be resisted with the target's soul rather than his mind. Bear in mind that the majority of Holy spells do not directly engage the Immortals, though. We can argue that Kertigen's Will is true to its name, or that it's a psychic spell that Clerics named after Kertigen because he's an awesome guy.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
BOPOFLIFE
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 07:38 PM CDT
>> 1: Obviously, spells that directly target the soul. Attacking the soul can (as a TM hybrid) lead to spirit loss and death. In addition, debuffs can be described in terms of inflicting "soul" sensations in the target: causing the target to cower in the Immortals' terrible glory, or distracted and despirited by a barren sensation where their heart and soul should be feeding them life. In these cases, we're carefully trying to walk a line between cognitive trickery (WvW territory) and the sort of overwhelming, gut reactions that are classically associated with religion.>>
I like that.
Malediction seems the choice. It could easily be considered as taking away a persons "spirit to fight". which to me is more closely related to soul than intellect. Which in that case it would be nice to have a few side effects added back to malediction that were taken away. perhaps maybe not the kneeling thing, but a little random RT would be nice and some balance loss.
In the whole contest thing I would like to see Charisma matter more in the spirit contests. Any chance of adjusting that some?
The Bopper
I like that.
Malediction seems the choice. It could easily be considered as taking away a persons "spirit to fight". which to me is more closely related to soul than intellect. Which in that case it would be nice to have a few side effects added back to malediction that were taken away. perhaps maybe not the kneeling thing, but a little random RT would be nice and some balance loss.
In the whole contest thing I would like to see Charisma matter more in the spirit contests. Any chance of adjusting that some?
The Bopper
ALDEN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 10:08 PM CDT
"The Rules:
1: Spells that directly screw with the target's magical abilities are WvW. Spellcasting is a psychic action, you need to crush your target's mental defenses to muck with it.
2: Phelim's Sanction will remain WvW, largely because it's to your benefit to have disablers spread across multiple contests."
The funny thing is, these are about the only two spells that I would want changed over to Spell vs Spirit. I can't think of any benefit or advantage to having KW or Malediction or COZ being Spell vs Spirit. The only significant difference I can think of is that one guild has a potent spell protecting them from WvW contests, but no guild has yet a significant (specific)defense against a spirit contest.
1) HULP- personally seems rather arbitrary that spell casting is purely a will thing and that spirit couldn't have anything to do with it. But you haven't really given me much to work with so it is what it is.
2) PS- I can only assume that this means that the other spells will be some sort of stunning that can be used instead of PS. Though I can't see any benefit to having PS being WvW, again only because there is a specific barrier against it, and none versus Spirit contests.
So if magic casting is a 'psychic' action and therefore must be a WvW contest- what type of actions must be Spirit contests?
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
1: Spells that directly screw with the target's magical abilities are WvW. Spellcasting is a psychic action, you need to crush your target's mental defenses to muck with it.
2: Phelim's Sanction will remain WvW, largely because it's to your benefit to have disablers spread across multiple contests."
The funny thing is, these are about the only two spells that I would want changed over to Spell vs Spirit. I can't think of any benefit or advantage to having KW or Malediction or COZ being Spell vs Spirit. The only significant difference I can think of is that one guild has a potent spell protecting them from WvW contests, but no guild has yet a significant (specific)defense against a spirit contest.
1) HULP- personally seems rather arbitrary that spell casting is purely a will thing and that spirit couldn't have anything to do with it. But you haven't really given me much to work with so it is what it is.
2) PS- I can only assume that this means that the other spells will be some sort of stunning that can be used instead of PS. Though I can't see any benefit to having PS being WvW, again only because there is a specific barrier against it, and none versus Spirit contests.
So if magic casting is a 'psychic' action and therefore must be a WvW contest- what type of actions must be Spirit contests?
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
DEVAN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/19/2008 11:33 PM CDT
>>that spirit couldn't have anything to do with it
Heroiklim tested this for me, back in the day, with AE and Benediction. Spirit does not have anything to do with spellcasting.
This made me very sad, mostly because it invalidates the entire theory behind my hacked-together system.
>>what type of actions must be Spirit contests?
Being spirited? </rimshot> Actually, I thought Armifer already answered that quite thoroughly, after Smegul asked it. I even left a tab open with that post so I could navel-gaze on it a bit longer. #3264. Read it.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
Heroiklim tested this for me, back in the day, with AE and Benediction. Spirit does not have anything to do with spellcasting.
This made me very sad, mostly because it invalidates the entire theory behind my hacked-together system.
>>what type of actions must be Spirit contests?
Being spirited? </rimshot> Actually, I thought Armifer already answered that quite thoroughly, after Smegul asked it. I even left a tab open with that post so I could navel-gaze on it a bit longer. #3264. Read it.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
TOOLX2
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 02:32 PM CDT
Why would wisdom be used in spirit contests over charisma? A few reasons for using charisma instead are:
Wisdom already has the largest impact on learning and is still has more value then charisma. Allowing players to pump up wisdom to high levels would allow them to gain ranks quickly and have that same stat used for offensive attacks. That dosnt seem balanced.
Clerics have one of the few charisma buffs in vigil. Using charisma would mean that clerics would have a unique ability to stay dominate in the spirit contest, as im assuming they should be. Using wisdom, clerics loose this advantage.
It dosnt make nearly as much RP sense. Hasn't it been already established and become common knowedge that Charisma is dominate in spirit calcs and its current effects in WvW. To suddendly say wisdom is used in the attack of spirit is a large departure from what has been commonly expected.
Id liek to suggest that PS is WvW, or Disc vs Disc with the attackers charisma and mana to determine damage(or stun). And have a Spirit attack spell be charisma vs charisma with mana and wisdom determining damage.
Don't most spirit calcs use charisma?
Wisdom already has the largest impact on learning and is still has more value then charisma. Allowing players to pump up wisdom to high levels would allow them to gain ranks quickly and have that same stat used for offensive attacks. That dosnt seem balanced.
Clerics have one of the few charisma buffs in vigil. Using charisma would mean that clerics would have a unique ability to stay dominate in the spirit contest, as im assuming they should be. Using wisdom, clerics loose this advantage.
It dosnt make nearly as much RP sense. Hasn't it been already established and become common knowedge that Charisma is dominate in spirit calcs and its current effects in WvW. To suddendly say wisdom is used in the attack of spirit is a large departure from what has been commonly expected.
Id liek to suggest that PS is WvW, or Disc vs Disc with the attackers charisma and mana to determine damage(or stun). And have a Spirit attack spell be charisma vs charisma with mana and wisdom determining damage.
Don't most spirit calcs use charisma?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 02:53 PM CDT
>>Why would wisdom be used in spirit contests over charisma?
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=22&topic=14&message=3260
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=22&topic=14&message=3260
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
ICEOWLL
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 02:55 PM CDT
>>Why would wisdom be used in spirit contests over charisma? A few reasons for using charisma instead are<<
The following statement makes me believe that Wisdom and Charisma will both be the primary factors in spiritual combat. I don't see where Armifer has said that Wisdom would be more important than Charisma, anywhere.
>>Spell versus Spirit is principally influenced by Wisdom and Charisma, with a touch of Discipline for spice. Attacker and defender use the same stats.<<
I would think it's safe to say that since Charisma is currently the most important factor in spirit health, that it will probably be the biggest bang for spiritual combat.
But I'm not a GM either.
- Terra
_______
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
>chant pyre
The following statement makes me believe that Wisdom and Charisma will both be the primary factors in spiritual combat. I don't see where Armifer has said that Wisdom would be more important than Charisma, anywhere.
>>Spell versus Spirit is principally influenced by Wisdom and Charisma, with a touch of Discipline for spice. Attacker and defender use the same stats.<<
I would think it's safe to say that since Charisma is currently the most important factor in spirit health, that it will probably be the biggest bang for spiritual combat.
But I'm not a GM either.
- Terra
_______
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
>chant pyre
TERKOWITZM
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 08:46 PM CDT
Thanks for the info Armifer.
Based on those descriptions I'd say probably KW and Malediction fall under Spell vs Spirit. Malediction is sketchy -- it mentions both the 'will of the divine' and 'your will' in the messaging. Unclear which way it should fall.
I'm also very happy to hear that Spell vs Spirit isn't going to be Cleric only -- I was a bit concerned when I first thought that only Clerics would have access. Single guild contests like that tend to fall by the wayside and tend not to get a lot of development time for bugs, enhancements, etc.
I might also suggest Bard enchantes like Albreda's Balm might fall under this contest.
Based on those descriptions I'd say probably KW and Malediction fall under Spell vs Spirit. Malediction is sketchy -- it mentions both the 'will of the divine' and 'your will' in the messaging. Unclear which way it should fall.
I'm also very happy to hear that Spell vs Spirit isn't going to be Cleric only -- I was a bit concerned when I first thought that only Clerics would have access. Single guild contests like that tend to fall by the wayside and tend not to get a lot of development time for bugs, enhancements, etc.
I might also suggest Bard enchantes like Albreda's Balm might fall under this contest.
ICEOWLL
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 09:25 PM CDT
>>I might also suggest Bard enchantes like Albreda's Balm might fall under this contest.<<
Albreda's Balm is a kind of calm spell, but I'd like to see it be Spell Vs Spirit too. I also think Abandoned Heart would do well as SvSp (It does give the title Dispiritor afterall)
I must have missed the part where he said it wouldn't be Cleric only. I'm glad if it will be opened to all guilds (where this would apply)!
- Terra
_______
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
>chant pyre
Albreda's Balm is a kind of calm spell, but I'd like to see it be Spell Vs Spirit too. I also think Abandoned Heart would do well as SvSp (It does give the title Dispiritor afterall)
I must have missed the part where he said it wouldn't be Cleric only. I'm glad if it will be opened to all guilds (where this would apply)!
- Terra
_______
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
>chant pyre
XOSS
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 10:52 PM CDT
>>In our setting we embrace a modified version of the Cartesian Split. We say that our characters' body, mind, and soul are three distinct attributes that, while they interact in mortals, can exist seperately. Something can have a mind but not be ensoulled, or be a mindless, disembodied spirit, or what have you. Over the years this has informed the notion that Clerics (and most likely Paladins) should have an attack mode that reflects targeting the soul.
>>Game design wise, Spell versus Spirit has three major merits. First, it increases the visibility of the Wisdom stat through making it the major contributor of an attack mode. Second, SvSp adds to the diversity of attack modes in the game -- something that many players said they consider important during the TM change. Finally, it will eventually pave the way to do more with the spirit health statistic. While spirit health is by no means useless, for most players it's redundant with vitality and fatigue, only becoming a significant factor for the few people who have abilities that spend it as a currency, or who fight creatures specifically designed to decrease it.
>>DR-ARMIFER
>>I'm also very happy to hear that Spell vs Spirit isn't going to be Cleric only -- I was a bit concerned when I first thought that only Clerics would have access. Single guild contests like that tend to fall by the wayside and tend not to get a lot of development time for bugs, enhancements, etc.
To me what Armifer has said it seems that it will be another Holy Mana only thing, probably on both the offensive and defensive side. I hope I am wrong but I doubt I am.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Remember the La Li Lu Le Lo are watching.
>>Game design wise, Spell versus Spirit has three major merits. First, it increases the visibility of the Wisdom stat through making it the major contributor of an attack mode. Second, SvSp adds to the diversity of attack modes in the game -- something that many players said they consider important during the TM change. Finally, it will eventually pave the way to do more with the spirit health statistic. While spirit health is by no means useless, for most players it's redundant with vitality and fatigue, only becoming a significant factor for the few people who have abilities that spend it as a currency, or who fight creatures specifically designed to decrease it.
>>DR-ARMIFER
>>I'm also very happy to hear that Spell vs Spirit isn't going to be Cleric only -- I was a bit concerned when I first thought that only Clerics would have access. Single guild contests like that tend to fall by the wayside and tend not to get a lot of development time for bugs, enhancements, etc.
To me what Armifer has said it seems that it will be another Holy Mana only thing, probably on both the offensive and defensive side. I hope I am wrong but I doubt I am.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Remember the La Li Lu Le Lo are watching.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 10:55 PM CDT
It was conceived as a Holy Mana thing, though I'm not against expanding it outward as appropriate.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 10:56 PM CDT
I could envision an SvSp contest of some kind for Empaths and maybe even Rangers.
Not sure about any other guilds.
Rev. Reene
A drunken cleric says, "Huldah. He is one mean poker player, I hear."
A drunken cleric says, "He cheats, of course."
A drunken cleric says, "Phelimmm. He doesn't cheat. Stupid, if you ask me."
Not sure about any other guilds.
Rev. Reene
A drunken cleric says, "Huldah. He is one mean poker player, I hear."
A drunken cleric says, "He cheats, of course."
A drunken cleric says, "Phelimmm. He doesn't cheat. Stupid, if you ask me."
DEVAN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/20/2008 11:41 PM CDT
>>Not sure about any other guilds.
...Paladins? Unless you already swept that under the Holy Mana umbrella. And as previously pointed out, it makes sense for Bards too, in certain obvious cases.
On a superficially unrelated note, has anyone put together a GvG listing of contested spells? I'd like to match that against a list of suggested spells to port over to Spirit and see what it looks like before and after.
I'd do it, but I am lazy, tired, and sleepy.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
...Paladins? Unless you already swept that under the Holy Mana umbrella. And as previously pointed out, it makes sense for Bards too, in certain obvious cases.
On a superficially unrelated note, has anyone put together a GvG listing of contested spells? I'd like to match that against a list of suggested spells to port over to Spirit and see what it looks like before and after.
I'd do it, but I am lazy, tired, and sleepy.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
TELGER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 12:04 AM CDT
Since all the other contested spells have a modifier (balance, nerve damage, vitality) will SvSp have one as well? And if so what will it be?
~Thilan
~Thilan
MOOK1
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 12:15 AM CDT
<<On a superficially unrelated note, has anyone put together a GvG listing of contested spells?
Compiled from Elanthipedia:
WvW
Bard - Abandonded Heart, Aether Wolves, Albreda's Balm, Chorus of Madmen, Damaris' Lullaby, Demriss' Resolve
Cleric - Curse of Zachriedek, Huldah's Pall, Kertigen's Will, Malediction, Phelim's Sanction
Empath -
Moon Mage - Hypnotize, Mental Blast, Sever Thread
Paladin - Crusader's Challenge, Halt, Hands of Justice, Tipping the Scales
Ranger -
Warrior Mage - Arc Light, Thunderclap, Tingle
SvA
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath -
Moon Mage - Dazzle, Riftal Summons, Shadow Web
Paladin -
Ranger - Branch Break, Grizzly Claw, Harawep's Bonds
Warrior Mage - Fire Ball (concussive blast), Ice Patch, Magnetic Ballista (knockdown), Ring of Spears, Tremor
SvS
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath - Lethargy, Nissa's Binding
Moon Mage - Whole Displacement
Paladin - Shatter, Smite Foe, Smite Horde
Ranger - Plague of Scavengers, Swarm
Warrior Mage - Frostbite, Static Discharge(?), Vertigo
Notes: Paladin spells are undergoing lots of changes, so who knows what they'll be when done. Also several of the Warrior Mage spells only have the stat contest as a secondary part of the effect, primarily in the SvA category.
Looking over the list, there's a few things I personally notice. Bards and Clerics only have WvW and would benefit from having a second type of skill contest for options. Empaths need more stat contest spells period. Right now their repertoire of combat spells is the pits.
-Evran
"Constitutions are meant to protect minorities -- not to take rights away from people." - Bruce Bastian
Compiled from Elanthipedia:
WvW
Bard - Abandonded Heart, Aether Wolves, Albreda's Balm, Chorus of Madmen, Damaris' Lullaby, Demriss' Resolve
Cleric - Curse of Zachriedek, Huldah's Pall, Kertigen's Will, Malediction, Phelim's Sanction
Empath -
Moon Mage - Hypnotize, Mental Blast, Sever Thread
Paladin - Crusader's Challenge, Halt, Hands of Justice, Tipping the Scales
Ranger -
Warrior Mage - Arc Light, Thunderclap, Tingle
SvA
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath -
Moon Mage - Dazzle, Riftal Summons, Shadow Web
Paladin -
Ranger - Branch Break, Grizzly Claw, Harawep's Bonds
Warrior Mage - Fire Ball (concussive blast), Ice Patch, Magnetic Ballista (knockdown), Ring of Spears, Tremor
SvS
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath - Lethargy, Nissa's Binding
Moon Mage - Whole Displacement
Paladin - Shatter, Smite Foe, Smite Horde
Ranger - Plague of Scavengers, Swarm
Warrior Mage - Frostbite, Static Discharge(?), Vertigo
Notes: Paladin spells are undergoing lots of changes, so who knows what they'll be when done. Also several of the Warrior Mage spells only have the stat contest as a secondary part of the effect, primarily in the SvA category.
Looking over the list, there's a few things I personally notice. Bards and Clerics only have WvW and would benefit from having a second type of skill contest for options. Empaths need more stat contest spells period. Right now their repertoire of combat spells is the pits.
-Evran
"Constitutions are meant to protect minorities -- not to take rights away from people." - Bruce Bastian
TERKOWITZM
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 02:02 AM CDT
>It was conceived as a Holy Mana thing, though I'm not against expanding it outward as appropriate.
Yeah I had read 'Paladins too!' in a previous post as 'it's available to all guilds'. Forgive me for overstepping my bounds -- but as I see it the more people who use the mechanic the more fleshed out and 'real' it will feel from an IC sense. I'm all for that.
Yeah I had read 'Paladins too!' in a previous post as 'it's available to all guilds'. Forgive me for overstepping my bounds -- but as I see it the more people who use the mechanic the more fleshed out and 'real' it will feel from an IC sense. I'm all for that.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 02:21 AM CDT
Eh, no need to apologize for a suggestion coupled into a misunderstanding.
The only compelling reason I have to keep it in the Holy guilds is because I assumed that had been the expectation all along. We have said in the past that screwing around with people's souls is a pretty Clericy thing, and I am willing to abide by that precedent.
However, if it's something you guys actively want us to pursue, I can definitely think up ways to spread the SvSp love around.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
The only compelling reason I have to keep it in the Holy guilds is because I assumed that had been the expectation all along. We have said in the past that screwing around with people's souls is a pretty Clericy thing, and I am willing to abide by that precedent.
However, if it's something you guys actively want us to pursue, I can definitely think up ways to spread the SvSp love around.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
DEVAN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 02:46 AM CDT
>>We have said in the past that screwing around with people's souls is a pretty Clericy thing, and I am willing to abide by that precedent.
I'd suggest pulling in a third category for the conceptualization that deals with spirit health in specific. Since everyone already has a direct means of affecting that (minuets), the precedent is there.
As has been pointed out, a number of enchantes and spells already make sense to get switched over, even if they don't fit well under the categories you've outlined.
Aside to everyone: I will point out that a lot of suggestions made really aren't (1) affecting the soul in specific (not the spirit), nor are they (2) actually divine or spiritual forces, to any degree. Which is why I'm suggesting a third category.
>>The only compelling reason I have to keep it in the Holy guilds is because I assumed that had been the expectation all along.
And while I'm all for keeping Clerics strongly connected with spirit, I think there's more to be gained from opening it up.
I'm not really qualified to speak a Cleric perspective here anymore, though. I'd actually wait for Flavius to chime in, here.
I'll repost Evran's list with modifications in the morning for an "After" view.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
I'd suggest pulling in a third category for the conceptualization that deals with spirit health in specific. Since everyone already has a direct means of affecting that (minuets), the precedent is there.
As has been pointed out, a number of enchantes and spells already make sense to get switched over, even if they don't fit well under the categories you've outlined.
Aside to everyone: I will point out that a lot of suggestions made really aren't (1) affecting the soul in specific (not the spirit), nor are they (2) actually divine or spiritual forces, to any degree. Which is why I'm suggesting a third category.
>>The only compelling reason I have to keep it in the Holy guilds is because I assumed that had been the expectation all along.
And while I'm all for keeping Clerics strongly connected with spirit, I think there's more to be gained from opening it up.
I'm not really qualified to speak a Cleric perspective here anymore, though. I'd actually wait for Flavius to chime in, here.
I'll repost Evran's list with modifications in the morning for an "After" view.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
LAMBL
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 05:52 AM CDT
<<Empaths need more stat contest spells period. Right now their repertoire of combat spells is the pits.>>
It's not just combat spells, and not just stat contests :/
The real reason for this post, though, is to point out that you missed a will vs. will Empath spell. Innocence.
Thanks,
-Kaith Partani Karthor
It's not just combat spells, and not just stat contests :/
The real reason for this post, though, is to point out that you missed a will vs. will Empath spell. Innocence.
Thanks,
-Kaith Partani Karthor
MOOK1
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 07:51 AM CDT
<<The real reason for this post, though, is to point out that you missed a will vs. will Empath spell. Innocence.
Yup, it wasn't on the list of stat contest spells on Elanthipedia. I.e. it was a very quickly researched post with no fact checking. ;) More specifically, on that site its labelled as a 'defensive' spell. If there's any others that were missed, then they too need to be updated over there. For example, I think there may be a couple more Bard ones that include a secondary stat contest of some kind but aren't listed as such.
I think that if non-holy magic users do get to dabble in SvSp checks, I think it should be just that: dabbling. One or at most two would be appropriate. Clerics primarily and Paladins to a slightly lesser degree should have the most options. Bards, Empaths and Rangers seem the most likely candidates for dabbling whether because some of their spell effects already fit well with the concept (Bard,) they have a demonstrated affinity for spirit use (Ranger,) or just because they need something/anything to fill out their abilities (Empath.)
-Evran
"Constitutions are meant to protect minorities -- not to take rights away from people." - Bruce Bastian
Yup, it wasn't on the list of stat contest spells on Elanthipedia. I.e. it was a very quickly researched post with no fact checking. ;) More specifically, on that site its labelled as a 'defensive' spell. If there's any others that were missed, then they too need to be updated over there. For example, I think there may be a couple more Bard ones that include a secondary stat contest of some kind but aren't listed as such.
I think that if non-holy magic users do get to dabble in SvSp checks, I think it should be just that: dabbling. One or at most two would be appropriate. Clerics primarily and Paladins to a slightly lesser degree should have the most options. Bards, Empaths and Rangers seem the most likely candidates for dabbling whether because some of their spell effects already fit well with the concept (Bard,) they have a demonstrated affinity for spirit use (Ranger,) or just because they need something/anything to fill out their abilities (Empath.)
-Evran
"Constitutions are meant to protect minorities -- not to take rights away from people." - Bruce Bastian
DEVAN
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 10:14 AM CDT
>>I think that if non-holy magic users do get to dabble in SvSp checks, I think it should be just that: dabbling.
I think I'd make them secondary effects in the majority of cases. I also feel the concept fits with Bards a bit too well to make them mere "one or two" dabblers. I mean, Bards are like the anti-Barbarians.
>>Yup, it wasn't on the list of stat contest spells on Elanthipedia.
I'm pretty sure Banner of Truce is a WvW spell. That didn't occur to me until just now. =) Added to the pedia.
Anyways, here's my modified list.
WvW
Bard - Aether Wolves, Chorus of Madmen, Damaris' Lullaby, Demriss' Resolve
Cleric - Curse of Zachriedek, Huldah's Pall, Phelim's Sanction
Empath - Innocence
Moon Mage - Hypnotize, Mental Blast, Sever Thread
Paladin - Crusader's Challenge, Halt, Hands of Justice, Tipping the Scales, Banner of Truce
Ranger -
Warrior Mage - Arc Light, Thunderclap, Tingle
SvA
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath -
Moon Mage - Dazzle, Riftal Summons, Shadow Web
Paladin -
Ranger - Branch Break, Grizzly Claw, Harawep's Bonds
Warrior Mage - Fire Ball (concussive blast), Ice Patch, Magnetic Ballista (knockdown), Ring of Spears, Tremor
SvS
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath - Lethargy, Nissa's Binding
Moon Mage - Whole Displacement
Paladin - Shatter, Smite Foe, Smite Horde
Ranger - Plague of Scavengers, Swarm
Warrior Mage - Frostbite, Static Discharge(?), Vertigo
SvSp
Bard - Abandoned Heart, Albreda's Balm
Cleric - Kertigen's Will, Malediction, +2 unknowns.
Empath -
Moon Mage -
Paladin - Ignored. Probably Hands of Justice.
Ranger -
Warrior Mage -
I don't feel BALM should be SvSp, but I wonder if DMRS or AEWO might be. <shrugs>
<pauses> Heh. I just imagined a wise bard.
Anyways, this feels a touch more balanced. I like the direction it goes in.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
I think I'd make them secondary effects in the majority of cases. I also feel the concept fits with Bards a bit too well to make them mere "one or two" dabblers. I mean, Bards are like the anti-Barbarians.
>>Yup, it wasn't on the list of stat contest spells on Elanthipedia.
I'm pretty sure Banner of Truce is a WvW spell. That didn't occur to me until just now. =) Added to the pedia.
Anyways, here's my modified list.
WvW
Bard - Aether Wolves, Chorus of Madmen, Damaris' Lullaby, Demriss' Resolve
Cleric - Curse of Zachriedek, Huldah's Pall, Phelim's Sanction
Empath - Innocence
Moon Mage - Hypnotize, Mental Blast, Sever Thread
Paladin - Crusader's Challenge, Halt, Hands of Justice, Tipping the Scales, Banner of Truce
Ranger -
Warrior Mage - Arc Light, Thunderclap, Tingle
SvA
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath -
Moon Mage - Dazzle, Riftal Summons, Shadow Web
Paladin -
Ranger - Branch Break, Grizzly Claw, Harawep's Bonds
Warrior Mage - Fire Ball (concussive blast), Ice Patch, Magnetic Ballista (knockdown), Ring of Spears, Tremor
SvS
Bard -
Cleric -
Empath - Lethargy, Nissa's Binding
Moon Mage - Whole Displacement
Paladin - Shatter, Smite Foe, Smite Horde
Ranger - Plague of Scavengers, Swarm
Warrior Mage - Frostbite, Static Discharge(?), Vertigo
SvSp
Bard - Abandoned Heart, Albreda's Balm
Cleric - Kertigen's Will, Malediction, +2 unknowns.
Empath -
Moon Mage -
Paladin - Ignored. Probably Hands of Justice.
Ranger -
Warrior Mage -
I don't feel BALM should be SvSp, but I wonder if DMRS or AEWO might be. <shrugs>
<pauses> Heh. I just imagined a wise bard.
Anyways, this feels a touch more balanced. I like the direction it goes in.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
TERKOWITZM
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 10:24 AM CDT
I mean, Hodierna's Lilt can heal the spirit -- Bards are clearly capable of spirit manipulation. I think it makes some sense for them to be able to have Spell vs Spirit spells -- in addition I don't really see what it hurts.
TELGER
Re: Spell vs Spirit
10/21/2008 10:45 AM CDT
>>I'm pretty sure Banner of Truce is a WvW spell. That didn't occur to me until just now. =) Added to the pedia.
The only thing it contests is the MR of the people in the room when cast (confirmed via testing).
~Thilan
The only thing it contests is the MR of the people in the room when cast (confirmed via testing).
~Thilan
