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ILLIENA

Evoke EXP testing 10/01/2011 02:35 AM CDT

Okay, did some testing. Since evoke currently trains PP, the natural verb to compare it to is concentrate. So that's what I did.

Relevant numbers:

PP	913
Cha	69
Disc	69
Wis	89
Int	90

I tested concentrate in the lowest and highest mana rooms I could find: flickering (town green NW) and brilliant (east of Silvyrfrost).

I tested evoke in 4 rooms: the one in Crossing, the one in S'lai, the one in Haven and the one in Nimbuses. (Skipped the one in Leth, 'cause I'm not sure where it is.)

Concentrate data:

Room	% of a rank gained
Flickering	0.10%
Brilliant	0.17%

3 second roundtime, 1 minute timer (per room).

Evoke data:

Room	% of a rank gained
Crossing	0.02%
S'lai	0.02%
Haven	0.02%
Nimbuses	0.03%

2 second roundtime, 10 minute timer (per room).

Conclusion: Concentrate gives roughly 6 times as much experience as evoke, meaning locking PP by "evoke walking" would require 6 times as many rooms. Locking Bardic Lore that way would require even more, since it's in my primary skillset (and I have 150 extra ranks of it). So I would not use this as a training method. Because of the long timer, "evoke sitting" (sitting on a room while I do other things and evoking every 10 minutes) would only provide a negligible amount of exp.

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/01/2011 06:45 AM CDT

Hmm -- I'm at work right now so I can't double check but I'll take a look when I get home.

I think I know what's up with the exp... though as a fair warning, if I drive it up too much I'll likely need to increase the (generous) rt somewhat.

That said, before I make any drastic tweaks to it I'd like some feedback from people with more modest ranks -- part of the problem is that at 900+ ranks you're vastly outclassing the evokes that exist.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/01/2011 08:14 AM CDT

>>That said, before I make any drastic tweaks to it I'd like some feedback from people with more modest ranks -- part of the problem is that at 900+ ranks you're vastly outclassing the evokes that exist.

Hmm, do you need me to provide you with my feedback later on or is ILLIENA's analysis good enough for the high rank crowd?

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/01/2011 10:36 AM CDT

Hah -- Now that I'm at home and could take a second look I found an error in the calcs that is now fixed.

Apologies.

You should see a marked improvement in the exp now. I also decided the timer and exp cap were a little too punitive compared to other systems, so they have been halved and doubled respectively.

Do note that high levels of skill are still going to struggle somewhat until we get harder evokes out there.

I'm open to some more tweaking after getting more numbers in with the actual intended formula in place, but I rather be a bit conservative at first to see how it plays out -- I have a feeling much more and I am going to have to increase the RT. I'm not sure if that's a trade people would want to make.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

ILLIENA

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Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/01/2011 03:05 PM CDT

> You should see a marked improvement in the exp now.

I'll give it another test in a bit, once my PP pool clears.

> I have a feeling much more and I am going to have to increase the RT. I'm not sure if that's a trade people would want to make.

Probably not.

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/01/2011 03:44 PM CDT

Okay, just tested the one in Nimbuses. It gave me 0.20% of a rank. This is 6 to 10 times what I was getting before, and roughly 133% of what a concentrate can give me.

Once there are more out there within the same region, I can see myself using this to train. Especially if harder evokes teach better.

ALEPH-ONE

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/01/2011 10:12 PM CDT

Since you said you needed some lower level data, here's some from me:

Wis: 25, Int: 25, Disc: 22, Cha: 22. PP 202.

I tried evoking at the two "Crossing area" locations, earning .50% and .54% PP exp. I then tried perceiving at a dull room and a lambent room, earning .62% for the dull room and 1.32% for the lambent room.

So for me, it seems that perceiving is far more rewarding and I would probably stick to that (for exp gain) until I got to be higher level.

-- Player of Eyuve

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 12:55 AM CDT

Having looked at both formulas - that's about what I'd expect. I have one more tweak in mind to the exp I may go through with... waiting on more date before I decide.

Keep in mind, however, that we really shouldn't be comparing it to PP. While that's what it trains now, what it will train is Bardic Lore -- and while I want it to be a valid way to train Bardic Lore, I'm not convinced I want it to be the primary way to do so (Use of Mojo abilities really should be).

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 01:12 AM CDT

Writing up a feedback post right now for you.

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 01:25 AM CDT

Ok, after having tested a few evokes... I would totally like more RT if it means more Exp. I spend 15+ seconds reading what happens in the evoke messaging anyway--It really wouldn't make a difference to me if that time spent reading was in RT.

Because the evoke locations are so spread out I don't believe the whole "Evoke Run" concept is valid, nor do I really want it to be. Evokes in my opinion should be nice little tidbits of background info that you come across in the game which give a fairly nice big chunk of Exp, but should also be things that you wouldn't necessarily repeat again for quite some time--Similar to invoking a spell scroll. This is all my opinion though as I will be training the blue blazes out of Bardic Lore and Tactics in combat anyway :P

Here is the hard data:

Discipline: 99
Intelligence: 91
Wisdom: 91

Zoluren Spot #1 - Dock
Before...
Scholarship: 605 11.81% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.10% clear

After RECALL AREA...
Scholarship: 605 12.29% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.10% clear

After EVOKE...
Scholarship: 605 12.29% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.25% clear

Zoluren Spot #2 - S'lai
Before...
Scholarship: 605 12.29% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.25% clear

After RECALL AREA...
Scholarship: 605 12.78% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.25% clear
(Is it my imagine or did I actually learn Perception from this?)

AFTER EVOKE...
Scholarship: 605 12.78% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.39% clear

Zoluren Spot #3 - Shop
Before...
Scholarship: 605 12.78% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.39% clear

After RECALL AREA...
Scholarship: 605 13.26% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.39% clear

AFTER EVOKE...
Scholarship: 605 13.26% clear
Power Perceive: 1092 94.54% clear

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 01:51 AM CDT

Hmmm. Leilond is echoing some of what I've been thinking about today while reading feedback. Do we actually WANT an "evoke" walk to be viable? Assuming there were enough of them?

Just as a thought experiment, how would people feel if I pushed it more towards the other extreme? A vastly longer timer, a significantly longer RT, but significantly more exp?

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 02:22 AM CDT

> A vastly longer timer, a significantly longer RT, but significantly more exp?

You mean something roughly on the scale of: gets me to 12/34, but has a 6 hour cool down per site? I'd be fine with that; in fact, I'd prefer it to the current model. And if I'm going to be evoking that infrequently, RT isn't that important, so longer is fine.

KROONERMANREVENGE

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 02:29 AM CDT

>Just as a thought experiment, how would people feel if I pushed it more towards the other extreme? A vastly longer timer, a significantly longer RT, but significantly more exp?

Sounds like it would become somewhat similar to Raven's Court, for scholarship/whatever training. I love the court, and would love every city to have one.

Please remember: just because a post is 'new to you' doesn't mean we have any idea what you're responding to. Quotes is your friend.

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 02:44 AM CDT

Leilond mentioned spell scrolls, and that made me think. The treasure system spits out scrolls at random. So how about something roughly analogous for evokes? Each city could randomly generate temporary evokes (presumably from a list written for that city). These would be few and scattered, so a bard would need to make an effort to track one down with "recall area" (with no guarantee that one currently existed), and they'd be consumed the first time a bard evoked them.

Of course, I'd want them to do more than just be chunks of exp, but I'm drawing a blank as to what. Spell scrolls provide the spell itself, obviously. The most thematically similar ability, "predict event", is seeded with information about upcoming invasions and such (I think?). These would give you some information about the city the first time you saw it, but I'm not sure what the benefit would be from repeated viewings.

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 03:07 AM CDT

>>You mean something roughly on the scale of: gets me to 12/34, but has a 6 hour cool down per site? I'd be fine with that; in fact, I'd prefer it to the current model. And if I'm going to be evoking that infrequently, RT isn't that important, so longer is fine.

I don't think we'd go that extreme. Keep in mind, a spell scroll is consuming a limited item. An Evoke is not. With the model you've mentioned there it'd only take only a minute or two with a little planning to lock your PP/Bardic Lore which is... not desirable.

>>Each city could randomly generate temporary evokes...

Hmm. I think there's a nugget of an idea there, but it's going to need to roll around in my head for awhile before I smooth it out and convince myself it's worth the limitations (Such as "Why are they only available sometimes?" and "If we already have far too few evokes, why would people want to write ones that would only be around part of the time?").

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 03:24 AM CDT

> With the model you've mentioned there it'd only take only a minute or two with a little planning to lock your PP/Bardic Lore

Well, now it's a question of how plentiful you're aiming to make evokes. If there are only 3 per region, sure you could lock, but then that would be it for 6 hours unless you were willing to do some not insignificant travel.

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 03:26 AM CDT

Even a six hour limitation does not balance locking a skill in a minute, never mind that that limitation will be decreasing over time.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 04:29 AM CDT

Okay... there's an entirely new exp model in place now for Evoke, with the plus side of consuming far less resources.

In a nutshell:

RTs went up. Quite a bit.

The timer is now universal. Once you've learned from an evoke, you will not be able to learn from any other evokes until it has expired. Note that the timer after using a stationary evoke is far longer (Currently all evokes IG are stationary, but there is now nothing stopping us from putting them on a sword, or some armor, or a stick, or a critter, or even a person).

Exp stayed the same unless the evoke is stationary (Once again, all evokes currently in game are), in which case it was vastly increased.

Hopefully this should provide a good compromise of rewarding people who seek out evokes without making people feel like they should be "evoke walking".

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 05:55 AM CDT

> Note that the timer after using a stationary evoke is far longer

No kidding. 65 minutes and counting.

I was dumb and evoked while I had a full pool, so I don't know how much exp I got. I'll have some feedback tomorrow.

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 08:59 AM CDT

I'll do some more testing tonight when I go back to mainlands. Thanks for all the snazzy updates and considerations Raesh, they are very much appreciated :)

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

KROONERMANREVENGE

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 10:54 AM CDT

>Such as "Why are they only available sometimes?" and "If we already have far too few evokes, why would people want to write ones that would only be around part of the time?"

Bards have a tie in to what I can only think to describe as 'the masses', the unwashed hordes of smelly commoners, in DR already. Why not just make them landmark events in those lives? Little timmy was run over by a drunk trader here, Bobbo the clown and Juanita were married by a crosseyed Huldah priest here after being life long lovemates, etc.

Things which would normally go unnoticed by the 'adventurers', or even just outsiders in general, but are deeply important to the people in question. It could be an annual rememberance, or a fresh occurance still sharp in the minds.

Please remember: just because a post is 'new to you' doesn't mean we have any idea what you're responding to. Quotes is your friend.

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/02/2011 06:19 PM CDT

>No kidding. 65 minutes and counting.

Whoops. Shouldn't quite be THAT long. Looks like me and Math had a fight last night and it won. However I've gotten revenge and the timer is now what I'd intended it to be (Though still long).

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

BLAYD

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/03/2011 12:35 AM CDT

Thanks for making it a longer RT with a timer, I was going to chime in that I wanted that over the other.

Discipline : 22
Wisdom : 26
Intelligence : 26

Haven Bard Guild
15 second RT

Power Perceive: 175 73.55% thoughtful (4/34) +0.00
Power Perceive: 175 78.50% clear (0/34) +0.05

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/03/2011 02:19 AM CDT

One evoke took me from 0/34 to 6/34, which translated to 1.81% of a rank gained. So a significant amount of exp. Nice.

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/03/2011 06:39 AM CDT

Same stats.

Before...
Power Perceive: 1093 46.10% clear

After EVOKE...
Power Perceive: 1093 46.10% pondering (7/34)
RT: 15 sec

Drained to...
Power Perceive: 1093 47.60% clear

Net +1.50% Gain in Power Perceive Exp

Simply awesome, and I would totally use this for training purposes in between combat runs now :)

Thanks Raesh!

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/03/2011 04:32 PM CDT

Odd that Leilond gained more mindstates than me, despite having more PP and better mentals. Is that because his discipline is so much higher than mine?

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/03/2011 06:16 PM CDT

There's a lot of factors that could be involved.

Skill level, mentals, which evoke you used... I'd need to see a more controlled test to judge properly.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/03/2011 09:37 PM CDT

>>...which evoke you used...

I was at Landfall in Crossings. I'm not sure if all of the present locations award the same EXP or not.

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/03/2011 10:09 PM CDT

For high levels all the current locations will give... roughly the same exp. There will be some variation, but your skill will swamp it out for the most part.

If you're testing at low levels which one you use may matter drastically.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/04/2011 12:26 AM CDT

> I was at Landfall in Crossings.

So was I. Of course, you're on an odd rank and I'm on an even one, so that might be it. Are pools smaller on odd ranks than even (I can never remember how this works)? Because otherwise, you're getting more bits at the same location even though you have more ranks.

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/04/2011 08:38 AM CDT

Well, my maximum pool size at the time must have just been smaller than yours.

You: One evoke took me from 0/34 to 6/34, which translated to 1.81% of a rank gained.
Me: Net +1.50% Gain in Power Perceive Exp

So it took me longer(draining from 7/34 down to 0/34, as opposed to your 6/34 down to 0/34) to gain less EXP(+1.50 vs your +1.81). That sounds about right for what happens naturally as you gain more skill :P

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/04/2011 03:59 PM CDT

> to gain less EXP

You're measuring in ranks. You should be measuring in bits. In bits, pool size goes up with rank and with int. It might fluctuate based on parity of the rank, I forget how exactly that works. But assuming it doesn't, 7/34 of your pool is necessarily more bits than 6/34 of my pool.

So I'm wondering if the number of bits awarded by a recall can somehow increase, even though we're both getting a complete success on it.

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/12/2011 08:32 PM CDT

About to wrap up the Evoke feedback period (And for any TF readers reading this -- Sorry, I'll get it over to TF as soon as I have the time to convert everything over there). Feedback is, of course, always welcome, but I the near future I'm going to start carving into recall again to convert it to the same system (A significantly larger task) and I want to make sure there aren't any large outstanding issues I've neglected to address first.

Any more bugs?

Everyone comfortable with this new exp model?

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

ILLIENA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/12/2011 10:25 PM CDT

> Everyone comfortable with this new exp model?

For a supplemental learning method, I think it's fine. For a primary learning method, I'd want something that allowed me to keep the skill constantly working, which this model doesn't provide.

BEVERAGEK

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/12/2011 10:37 PM CDT

>>For a supplemental learning method, I think it's fine. For a primary learning method, I'd want something that allowed me to keep the skill constantly working, which this model doesn't provide.

This. I believe it is supposed to be supplemental though so I am quite happy with it :)

Thanks Raesh!

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

DR-RAESH

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/13/2011 02:15 AM CDT

Correct. It is not intended as the primary source of exp.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

TERRA

Email Author

Re: Evoke EXP testing 10/14/2011 09:09 PM CDT

Just got back recently from a little break, and so far I really like the Evoke change. Not so much for what it is now, but for what it can potentially be. Unless it is something more than PERCEIVE HISTORY which it looks to be now. I haven't read much about it though. Still catching up.

Terra

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