| Bardic Lore | 4 4 5 6 7 |
| Performance | 4 4 5 6 7 |
| 3rd Lore | 3 3 4 5 6 |
| 4th Lore | 3 3 3 4 5 |
| 5th Lore | 3 3 3 4 5 |
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
MOOK1
Lore requisite speculation
04/25/2011 08:57 PM CDT
Of all the Lore guilds, we are the ones to be most affected by skill combination. Thought I'd start a brainstorming slash wishlist for our 3.0 Lore reqs. GMs are welcome to participate, although I suspect its too early for any official word. I'll start:
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/25/2011 10:49 PM CDT
My vote would be...
To represent that we are the only Lore Primary combat guild.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
| Bardic Lore | 4 4 5 6 7 |
| Performance | 4 4 5 6 7 |
| 3rd Lore | 3 3 4 5 6 |
| 4th Lore | 3 3 3 4 5 |
| 5th Lore | 3 3 3 4 5 |
| Min Tactics | 3 3 3 4 5 |
To represent that we are the only Lore Primary combat guild.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
LHFERREE1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 08:49 AM CDT
I'd vote for specific requirements for Bardic Lore and Performance, along the lines already proposed (or just keeping the top two we already have now), but everything else in a total Lore requirement. I could see an argument in favor of a minimum for Tactics, but I'd be interested in on how this would be grandfathered in.
I understand the requirements for Empaths and Traders could change after the skill reconfiguration, but thematically I like how they would end up as 1 Guild specific skill + 1 Lore skill that is clearly aligned with their Guild. So Empaths are Empathy + Scholarship (which includes Teaching after the combine) and Traders are Trading + Appraisal. I like Bards fitting in as just Bardic Lore + Performance, although I do see an argument for Tactics too.
I could just be overly worried on how the skill reconfiguration will work out.
~~
Lupdels
I understand the requirements for Empaths and Traders could change after the skill reconfiguration, but thematically I like how they would end up as 1 Guild specific skill + 1 Lore skill that is clearly aligned with their Guild. So Empaths are Empathy + Scholarship (which includes Teaching after the combine) and Traders are Trading + Appraisal. I like Bards fitting in as just Bardic Lore + Performance, although I do see an argument for Tactics too.
I could just be overly worried on how the skill reconfiguration will work out.
~~
Lupdels
BEVERAGEK
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 10:15 AM CDT
Overall Lore could be fun :) That would allow for more specialized Bards, which is never a bad thing in my opinion.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
LHFERREE1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 10:42 AM CDT
I wasn't around for the instrument split that the Mech Lore split is supposed to be based on. But I'm assuming that if I have X skill ranks in Mech Lore I'll be dividing that X up among the new crafting skills. Right?
That's my major concern about five or six Lore skill requirements after the reconfiguration. I'd be taking a huge blow to my circle because I haven't really emphasized Mech Lore that much and to avoid an even bigger blow I'd have to put almost all of X in just one crafting skill instead of spreading it out and dabbling.
If we have Overall Lore requirements it doesn't matter how I divide X up, which I view as a plus for the Guild.
~~
Lupdels
That's my major concern about five or six Lore skill requirements after the reconfiguration. I'd be taking a huge blow to my circle because I haven't really emphasized Mech Lore that much and to avoid an even bigger blow I'd have to put almost all of X in just one crafting skill instead of spreading it out and dabbling.
If we have Overall Lore requirements it doesn't matter how I divide X up, which I view as a plus for the Guild.
~~
Lupdels
MOOK1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 12:07 PM CDT
Overall lore isn't as open as it sounds.
With all 10 skills it has to be set really high or it can be easily met by dabbling. This heavily favours those who want to craft a lot, while those who don't want to craft are left out in the cold.
2. Limiting it to only including top craft is a bit better, but still forces a non-crafter to craft and a craft focused Bard is left out of the loop.
(continued... dern mobile character limit)
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
With all 10 skills it has to be set really high or it can be easily met by dabbling. This heavily favours those who want to craft a lot, while those who don't want to craft are left out in the cold.
2. Limiting it to only including top craft is a bit better, but still forces a non-crafter to craft and a craft focused Bard is left out of the loop.
(continued... dern mobile character limit)
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
MOOK1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 12:07 PM CDT
3. Not including crafting at all, like Empaths/Traders and instruments, leaves even single craft Bards high and dry, and basically forces the training of 5 specific skills. This is fine for non-crafters, but crafters get left out.
Having top 5 allows non-crafters, single-crafters, and dedicated-crafters to all have an equal go at the reqs without forcing them to train a skill they don't want, or have a skill they want to train not count.
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
Having top 5 allows non-crafters, single-crafters, and dedicated-crafters to all have an equal go at the reqs without forcing them to train a skill they don't want, or have a skill they want to train not count.
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
MOOK1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 12:09 PM CDT
Oh, and you won't take a blow to circle. They will grandfather you to minimum reqs for your circle if you don't meet them. Zero backtraining required.
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 12:18 PM CDT
>>Overall lore isn't as open as it sounds. With all 10 skills it has to be set really high or it can be easily met by dabbling.
Good point. If only they could make it so that higher ranks have more weight in terms of how much they apply to the overall lore scheme, so it would be harder to just dabble with a bunch of lower ranked skills in order to circle.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
Good point. If only they could make it so that higher ranks have more weight in terms of how much they apply to the overall lore scheme, so it would be harder to just dabble with a bunch of lower ranked skills in order to circle.
__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com
LHFERREE1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 12:50 PM CDT
I don't necessarily understand your logic. Here are my questions and concerns.
>With all 10 skills it has to be set really high or it can be easily met by dabbling. This heavily favours those who want to craft a lot, while those who don't want to craft are left out in the cold.
As I understand the situation right now, Empaths and Traders can use Appraisal, Mechanical Lore, Scholarship, Teaching and their Guild specific skill for their general Lore requirement. This excludes Animal Lore (how unfortunate!) and the four music related skills. I don't know why Animal Lore is excluded but I understand the logic for excluding the four music related skills because, based on the logic you propose, existing Empath and Trader general Lore requirements could be more easily met by dabbling in the musics. And if they wanted to do that, become a Bard!
After the reconfiguration Tactics will become a new Lore skill. I think it would easily make sense to be included in any Guild's general Lore requirements. The music related skills will be collapsed into Performing. Being one skill instead of four I think there could be a strong case for including it in anyone's general Lore requirements. Scholarship and Teaching will be combined, which I think argues for expanding the pool of skills for the general Lore requirements for Empaths and Traders to include Tactics and Performing since their pool would be shrinking elsewhere.
The big problem for any general Lore requirement, as you point out, is what to do with the explosion of skills from the Mech Lore split. Would more skills necessarily make the requirements easier? Let's say yes. So yes, perhaps with the split the skill requirements would have to be higher than what Empaths and Traders currently face.
But I don't see how this would benefit or favor those who want to craft a lot.
>Having top 5 allows non-crafters, single-crafters, and dedicated-crafters to all have an equal go at the reqs without forcing them to train a skill they don't want, or have a skill they want to train not count.
Here's what worries me about the top 5.
Let's say that on average most Bards have Musical Theory, Vocals, Percussions, Strings, and Winds in their top six. I'd love to know if this isn't the case for most people and my Bard is just unusual. Currently, this means five of the six skills are from music/performance and you can select one other Lore skill. For me it's Appraisal. Mildly curious what it is for everyone else.
What about after the skill reconfiguration? Bardic Lore and Performing will still be in my top five. So will Appraisal. But now I've got to find more skills to train. Let's say Scholarship, which I could switch to without taking too much of a hit and having to backtrain. And remember Scholarship and Teaching combine, which is sad because I'd be able to switch to both if they were staying split.
What else? Tactics? Not unless it's grandfathered in a way that brings it up to my circle, and even then I'm still taking a hit because my Lores are ahead of my circle. And if I don't want Scholarship or Tactics or Appraisal I'm pressured to shift most of my Mech Lore skill into just one craft skill to avoid taking a hit and be forced to backtrain when the skill is split up.
The way I look at it the skill reconfiguration really messes up my Bard's progression. Right now my highest lore skill is 15 circles ahead of my actual circle. The sixth highest lore skill is still 10 circles ahead. I haven't really ignored Scholarship and Teaching, but combining them reduces my flexibility in picking skills. I don't feel like I've been doing anything unusual so I wonder why I feel like I'd be taking a bit hit from only top five but no one else seems to be concerned. Unless I'm not understanding the Mech Lore split properly. Or everyone else is really confident that Tactics will be grandfathered and boosted by the requirements.
~~
Lupdels
>With all 10 skills it has to be set really high or it can be easily met by dabbling. This heavily favours those who want to craft a lot, while those who don't want to craft are left out in the cold.
As I understand the situation right now, Empaths and Traders can use Appraisal, Mechanical Lore, Scholarship, Teaching and their Guild specific skill for their general Lore requirement. This excludes Animal Lore (how unfortunate!) and the four music related skills. I don't know why Animal Lore is excluded but I understand the logic for excluding the four music related skills because, based on the logic you propose, existing Empath and Trader general Lore requirements could be more easily met by dabbling in the musics. And if they wanted to do that, become a Bard!
After the reconfiguration Tactics will become a new Lore skill. I think it would easily make sense to be included in any Guild's general Lore requirements. The music related skills will be collapsed into Performing. Being one skill instead of four I think there could be a strong case for including it in anyone's general Lore requirements. Scholarship and Teaching will be combined, which I think argues for expanding the pool of skills for the general Lore requirements for Empaths and Traders to include Tactics and Performing since their pool would be shrinking elsewhere.
The big problem for any general Lore requirement, as you point out, is what to do with the explosion of skills from the Mech Lore split. Would more skills necessarily make the requirements easier? Let's say yes. So yes, perhaps with the split the skill requirements would have to be higher than what Empaths and Traders currently face.
But I don't see how this would benefit or favor those who want to craft a lot.
>Having top 5 allows non-crafters, single-crafters, and dedicated-crafters to all have an equal go at the reqs without forcing them to train a skill they don't want, or have a skill they want to train not count.
Here's what worries me about the top 5.
Let's say that on average most Bards have Musical Theory, Vocals, Percussions, Strings, and Winds in their top six. I'd love to know if this isn't the case for most people and my Bard is just unusual. Currently, this means five of the six skills are from music/performance and you can select one other Lore skill. For me it's Appraisal. Mildly curious what it is for everyone else.
What about after the skill reconfiguration? Bardic Lore and Performing will still be in my top five. So will Appraisal. But now I've got to find more skills to train. Let's say Scholarship, which I could switch to without taking too much of a hit and having to backtrain. And remember Scholarship and Teaching combine, which is sad because I'd be able to switch to both if they were staying split.
What else? Tactics? Not unless it's grandfathered in a way that brings it up to my circle, and even then I'm still taking a hit because my Lores are ahead of my circle. And if I don't want Scholarship or Tactics or Appraisal I'm pressured to shift most of my Mech Lore skill into just one craft skill to avoid taking a hit and be forced to backtrain when the skill is split up.
The way I look at it the skill reconfiguration really messes up my Bard's progression. Right now my highest lore skill is 15 circles ahead of my actual circle. The sixth highest lore skill is still 10 circles ahead. I haven't really ignored Scholarship and Teaching, but combining them reduces my flexibility in picking skills. I don't feel like I've been doing anything unusual so I wonder why I feel like I'd be taking a bit hit from only top five but no one else seems to be concerned. Unless I'm not understanding the Mech Lore split properly. Or everyone else is really confident that Tactics will be grandfathered and boosted by the requirements.
~~
Lupdels
LHFERREE1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 12:58 PM CDT
>>>>Overall lore isn't as open as it sounds. With all 10 skills it has to be set really high or it can be easily met by dabbling.
>Good point. If only they could make it so that higher ranks have more weight in terms of how much they apply to the overall lore scheme, so it would be harder to just dabble with a bunch of lower ranked skills in order to circle.
But it's an issue they'll have to be working out for Traders and Empaths anyway. They'll be going from 5 Lore skills for general requirements now to anywhere from 8 to 10 after the reconfiguration, unless they suddenly decide to exclude the crafting skills despite having included Mechanical Lore before the split. Either this encourages them to rewrite their requirements to be top X or they find a way to make it work with general requirements spread across 8 or 10. I don't know why you'd tell a Guild that currently can train 5 sills for general Lore requirements that you're shifting to top X when they are actually seeing one lore skill expanding into five different skills.
~~
Lupdels
>Good point. If only they could make it so that higher ranks have more weight in terms of how much they apply to the overall lore scheme, so it would be harder to just dabble with a bunch of lower ranked skills in order to circle.
But it's an issue they'll have to be working out for Traders and Empaths anyway. They'll be going from 5 Lore skills for general requirements now to anywhere from 8 to 10 after the reconfiguration, unless they suddenly decide to exclude the crafting skills despite having included Mechanical Lore before the split. Either this encourages them to rewrite their requirements to be top X or they find a way to make it work with general requirements spread across 8 or 10. I don't know why you'd tell a Guild that currently can train 5 sills for general Lore requirements that you're shifting to top X when they are actually seeing one lore skill expanding into five different skills.
~~
Lupdels
DR-RAESH
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 01:04 PM CDT
While requirements are not finalized, I think a lot of you are getting worried about nothing.
There will be grandfatherification, a specific goal outlined by Socharis was to prevent the need to backtrain, and we're on top of how to make "Top X" work under the new system without requiring everyone to craft everything.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
There will be grandfatherification, a specific goal outlined by Socharis was to prevent the need to backtrain, and we're on top of how to make "Top X" work under the new system without requiring everyone to craft everything.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
LHFERREE1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 01:18 PM CDT
>Oh, and you won't take a blow to circle. They will grandfather you to minimum reqs for your circle if you don't meet them. Zero backtraining required.
I've never gone through something like this before so I'm curious how it is done, especially if this happens at the same time/around the same time as the Mech Lore split.
But it still is a hit to my development overall. Here are my lore skills and where they fall relative to my actual circle:
Primary Lore (Musical Theory): +17 Circles
Secondary Lore (Vocals): +13 Circles
Tertiary Lore (Appraisal): +15 Circles
4th Lore (Winds): +13 Circles
5th Lore (Percussions): +17 Circles
6th Lore (Strings): +10 Circles
Once you combine Performing and Scholarship, it would look like this if you didn't change anything else with requirements:
Primary Lore (Bardic Lore): +17 Circles
Secondary Lore (Performing): +13 Circles
Tertiary Lore (Appraisal): +15 Circles
4th Lore (Scholarship): -1 Circle
5th Lore (Mechanical Lore*): -19 Circles
6th Lore (Tactics): -31 Circles
If I have the top five I'd prefer Tactics over anything from the Mechanical Lore split. But would that mean I'd have to manage my Mechanical Lore split to make sure that none of my new crafting skills were higher than Tactics?
~~
Lupdels
I've never gone through something like this before so I'm curious how it is done, especially if this happens at the same time/around the same time as the Mech Lore split.
But it still is a hit to my development overall. Here are my lore skills and where they fall relative to my actual circle:
Primary Lore (Musical Theory): +17 Circles
Secondary Lore (Vocals): +13 Circles
Tertiary Lore (Appraisal): +15 Circles
4th Lore (Winds): +13 Circles
5th Lore (Percussions): +17 Circles
6th Lore (Strings): +10 Circles
Once you combine Performing and Scholarship, it would look like this if you didn't change anything else with requirements:
Primary Lore (Bardic Lore): +17 Circles
Secondary Lore (Performing): +13 Circles
Tertiary Lore (Appraisal): +15 Circles
4th Lore (Scholarship): -1 Circle
5th Lore (Mechanical Lore*): -19 Circles
6th Lore (Tactics): -31 Circles
If I have the top five I'd prefer Tactics over anything from the Mechanical Lore split. But would that mean I'd have to manage my Mechanical Lore split to make sure that none of my new crafting skills were higher than Tactics?
~~
Lupdels
MOOK1
Re: Lore requisite speculation
04/26/2011 10:31 PM CDT
Grandfathering simply means setting your skills to some value if they're lower. Using an approximation of one of my Bards with 100th lores as an example, note the free crafting and/or tactics ranks.
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
| Current | 3.0 |
| Vocals 550 | Performance 550 |
| Music Theory 500 | Bardic Lore 500 |
| Appraisal 450 | Appraisal 450 |
| Scholarship 350 | Scholarship 350 |
| Strings 330 | Craft or Tactics 330 |
| Percussion 330 | |
| Winds 330 | |
| Teaching 250 | |
| Mech Lore 200 |
-Evran
The first slayer of Malik, may he not rest in peace.
