I will post to say, that's all bards had before, so it's mostly a push for bards. And while I agree it would have been nice to give bards a little something extra, I complain about your complaint! :p


Nikpack
player of Celeiros

Climbing List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Climbing_skill
Swimming List:http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Swimming_skill

And while I am evil, I try to avoid being just plain mean.
-Z

Robo IS right. So is Sasababy. I remember when they were first released (way back when), the GMs stated that the intent was to have the skills be reciprocal. Bards would teach TV to thieves, and thieves would teach SLIP to bards. I've been waiting all these years for that to happen, teaching TV to anyone who would ask, patiently looking forward to the day I might learn (at least some of the) slips. Now it's out, and we're hosed again. How very sad.

- Useff

---

Macfrae frowns at you as he says, "BAH! You already know that enchante. Why make me repeat things for you when you already know the answer? You owe me a beer for this!"

Would I have liked slips? Sure.

But as Leilond pointed out, the skill checks for them are now survival. We're survival tert. Does it suck? Sure, I guess. But I'd much rather have a 100th circle ability than 5-7 slip abilities I'll use maybe 10 times a year.

Let's say we do get access to the slips. Since they're based on survival, how many bards would be able to successfully pull them off anyway? I'm nearly 100 and my hiding/stalking/stealing are laughable. If those are required to SLIP something, then I'm just going to plain fail. If I wanted to be really good at them, I'd need to backtrain stealths - and so would most bards. Then we'd have bards complaining about THAT. I'd much rather be out there, in the now training my skills that are going to help me be able to overcome BMR/MR instead. So, while I would have LIKED slips, I'm not going to freak out.

:)


__
Huldah's on a writing kick.
http://tinyurl.com/5kmnso
Total Chapters: 4

Listen, yes, there are lots of things that I would prefer over slips. That however just has nothing to do with this. We are now sharing our recalls with other guilds and the world, we've shared our VT with thieves for years and you know, it would almost have been better to have completely been left out of the circle for slips than to have the one we've had for years. I mean, frankly, I'm not bothering to relearn the slip. Shoot, let the world have access to the one slip we got. The direction of slips went a completely different direction than it started out to be and we all understand that. No one is saying we don't. We are all just expressing our frustration over this direction things went in. I mean, are VT's next? Based on the criteria that slips are going, VT could also fit into the nitch. One can make anything fit in it. VT's are not really usefull, though they are a fun role playing tool and make for some great role play with or without folks around. Brings new meaning to the idea of talking to myself.

A lot of changes have come for the guild that are great and I wouldn't want taken away. As the world get balanced, you win some stuff you loose some stuff. I am just fine without slips. Yea, they are nifty and I always wanted to do more but hey, I'm not going to die without them. In my book, it was more of a slap in the face to get the one slip. Its more of a "oh, we'd better appease the bards and not take that one away from them" type thing than a thought process of logic like the rest of them. Oh well, moving right along. We all know the logic to the release, so when it comes down to it, this has nothing to do with gratefulness or ungratefulness or getting more slips would have taken away from time spent on X. The survival side was working on it, not the lore team or the team for 100th circle ablities. A logic decision was made and carried out, we all get that. It still doesn't lesson the sting, emotions or frustration. Nothing was given up on the part of the thieves such as them loosing their VT's because they are lore tert or they don't have enough vocals or musical theory. Oh, that's it. I want thieves to suffer too. :-)

And so ends my rant. Sorry for expressing my negative feelings and refusing to be Pollyanna and Suzie Sunshine and not keeping my mouth shut and saying, "Oh, I'm just so grateful for all I have and I'm glad you didn't take time away from some project more important to me. You are right, slips should be with survival prim guilds and its just fine that thieves can do VT's without having the vocal ranks or charisma stat's like I have and it's fine we can't do the same VT's that thieves can and we will never be able to do the slips other than the one." <skips way throwing flower petals on the floor singing some 70's love/peace song>


~Eoworfinia~
Dartenian fades into view.
A horde of Lawrence Welk fans decend on the area.
Dartenian whimpers softly.

>>the GMs stated that the intent was to have the skills be reciprocal.

Zeyurn could care less what other GMs have promised players in the past.

DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.

>Zeyurn could care less what other GMs have promised players in the past.<

While potentially mean to say, this is just about dead on.

I'm sorry Royce dropped the ball on something that was apparently never intended to be actually followed through on (and I try very hard not to make these kinds of mistakes myself), but I'm not gonna take the hit for it.

Frankly, the woe is me really turns me off since only one person has been constructive on posting things that would be bardly and could be tied into the SLIP verb perhaps instead of unleashing the rantacular. You guys are a cool guild, you have awesome people working for you and advocating for you.

Dartenian filled me in on why the griping exists due to patterns by past GMs but I'll speak from the heart here: The kind of posting I've seen over the last few days REALLY kills any motivation to work on bards again for me. Even though I understand the frustration and certainly some of it is justified given what the D-man spoke to me about, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors with how you're presenting it. It's one thing to say you're sad you didn't get anything more, I'm totally cool with that. It's also alright to say you think the slip you do have isn't worth much of anything (because I tend to agree). But keeping it constructive somehow is going to net you the biggest benefit in the long run. I read absolutely every serious suggestion and I know a lot of other GMs do too.

I'm not gonna post again on this thread, but for the Bards that are striving for positive Global Bardic Domination, don't worry, I still love you guys ;)

-Z

With respect, this is the complaints folder and while it can and should be used for constructive critism, it is also the place to let out emotion and even simply rant. While I don't care much for slips I do care for people's right to complain here and am not too sure why when a complaint is made here it may possibly discourage anyone from continuing work for bards (or any other guild for that matter that uses a complaint folder). If rants were made at any other folder I would agree, they don't belong there and all they do is discourage, but correct me if I'm wrong -this is where they're supposed to go, otherwise what's the point of a complaints topic?
Some people may disagree - change is not always easily accepted (there are a few changes I still don't like or agree with) and sometime people need an outlet. Let's not get into a spot where we make people feel it's not okay to say (or rant) they hate something. It is okay when you done in the right place.
Again I suggest that we all keep in mind that this is the complaints folder and not take things too personal here. Perhaps it'll do everyone a service if the discussion on the evaluate suggestion (which I like) be moved to one of the other folders - seems to me like it'll be healthier to all involved including the future development of the bard guild.

I agree Siltoth and I appologize for any ranting I might have posted in a non-complaints folder on slips. And for the record, I do not hold this against any GM, nor do I not understand. The need to blow off steam is needed sometimes in order to move on and contribute suggestions instead. Obviously, some folks had no problem with the release and some did. Apparently some of us are now marked for life. haha


~Eoworfinia~
Dartenian fades into view.
A horde of Lawrence Welk fans decend on the area.
Dartenian whimpers softly.

Modified to be less conflictual:

No one said slips weren't good enough. In fact, it is largely because people think the slips are a good ability that bards are jealous. The issue is, bards were promised an ability, and the promise wasn't kept. It turns out this happened because Zeyurn had no idea it had been promised to begin with. That's fine, but it is a classic example of discontinuity in DR dev. Behind the negative posts is a passion for the game, and I'm sure we can all understand that.

But if you want, we can broaden the scope of the disagreement in conflicts.

<< Shove off.>>

Post that are not signed, basically are not even considered.

<< I'd like to say what they can't without damaging customer relations>>

As far as being rude to customers Bubba is pretty damn good at it, and since Z got his feeling hurt by our <bards> problem of getting (or not that is) as usual, woe is him.

The survival tert argument is mute, its just code and *you can code it any way you want*. They are making the biggest customer base happy. We as bards, aren't even in that equation. We never were. Infact, since the "magic rewrite" all spells enchantes and such are all the same, just with different names. Bard magic is not unique anymore.

Robo

Disclaimers
JMF90's post, excellent as usual.
Useff's Eowo's and Sassy's post, no one seems to see our passion except us. Le sigh.
Lofton1 has excellent points also IMO
Dart and Vael your hard work is the only saving grace to this guild anymore.

>> The survival tert argument is mute, its just code and *you can code it any way you want*. They are making the biggest customer base happy.

I don't really think you understand what you are saying here. If you think that the game would be better if GMs just pandered to what the customers want, you are dead wrong.

>>We as bards, aren't even in that equation. We never were.

This sentiment really needs to die. It is completely untrue that Bards are being ignored. In fact, we have had a steady stream of positive development for the past two years under Dart and Vael. We have also had countless abilities coded by other GMs (including Z, but that doesn't count now because Z has foresaken us as we are unworthy of anyone's time - woez).

We (collective we, Bards) need to stop acting like we are the underdogs of DR development. This is so far from the case it's just silly to even suggest that anymore. It is also a slap in the face to every GM who has spent their free time and energy coding projects for us. Times have changed. Take a look around you, things aren't really that bad for Bards anymore.

We need to stop looking to the mistakes of the past and start seeing what is ahead of us. Things are only going to get better, especially with the Lore rewrite on the horizon.

SEAN

<deadHorse>
Gent I agree with you that we can leave this issue alone now. But I think it's important to remember - as Siltoth reminded us - that this is the complaints folder. Letting off a little steam, now and then, is healthy, and this is the proper place to do it. If anyone gets sore over that then they are not considering the overwhelmingly positive posts in the other Bard folders over the past 5 or so years. Any reasonable person is not going to leap to the conclusion that our group is ungrateful based on a few of us (mostly senior) folks expressing our view here. If they do, they're not paying attention.

I've been watching Bard development for over a decade and, relative to the lean years, the past few have been booming with positive changes. No one can dispute that, and our group reacts accordingly. If a few people want to express their occasional disappointment that HAS to be ok.
</deadHorse>

- Useff

---

Macfrae frowns at you as he says, "BAH! You already know that enchante. Why make me repeat things for you when you already know the answer? You owe me a beer for this!"

No one is saying you can't complain in the complaints topic.

Some folks, however, need to learn that there are ways to express displeasure and still be constructive about it.

Also, it's the complaints topic. Zeyurn can complain here, too.

I think it's interesting that the sentiments he's expressing and getting flack for are the exact same ones that players were expressing (except his post wasn't nearly as rough as some of the ones that were directed at him/staff).

It seems that some people want to be able to rant and complain and make unfounded claims or untrue accusations and the GMs are just supposed to roll over and take it, but when a GM says, "Hey, you know...the more posts I see of that type, the less I want to spend time on things for Bards.", particularly a GM who repeatedly steps outside his area of responsibility to help out where needed, the same people act like that's completely wrong.

It goes both ways.

At no time did he say, "You can't complain. You'll take what you get and like it." He simply said, "If you want any sort of positive results or reactions from your complaints, do it in a constructive manner."

Personally, I think Zeyurn (along with plenty of other GMs) have done great things for this guild, among others.

How quickly that seems to be forgotten.

Solomon


"The probability of someone making a mathematical formulation on a non-mathematical subject is inversely proportional to its usefulness."
- Brust's Law of Mathematical Formulations

http://www.myspace.com/simutronicsdragonrealms

> Please do not let the outspokenness of a few, outweigh the gratitude of the many.


I'd also ask for just a little faith. Vaeldriil's at the helm now, and I seriously doubt she'll let you guys down in the long run. With that said, things change. Both what is and sometimes what was planned. Either way, I fully believe that bards are in very good hands right now, and we have a lot of folks willing to help out with them. Just because one thing didn't pan out like planned doesn't mean you are shut out of it completely, nor does it mean that bigger and better stuff may fill the void.


- GM Dartenian


If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. - Henry Ford

Hey, for the record here, I think we have awesome stuff in our guild and awesome work done for us! Just cause I got upset over one thing doesn't mean I really think there is no love for us bards! Even when an enchante isn't something I think I will use, I keep an open mind. The bards have come a long way and I am the first to say so! So, I'd like to say, don't think that because we got upset over one thing that we don't appreciate and think we have awesome GM's or that awesome GM's do work for us.

My mom used to tell us growing up that we were allowed to be angry at her and express it anyway we wanted, could even say what we wanted while angry and in return, she told us she'd do the same with us. Course, my mom had this belief that it was important to express emotions and not hold them in. It is only later in life that I and my family realized all she was teaching us with that little statement.

Anyway, just because we get angry and say mean things, doesn't mean we don't appreciate things too. Okay, now I've really beat this subject up more than I ever wanted. Man, this folder doesn't get a lot of action in the bard group but when it gets it, it gets it a lot!

~Eoworfinia~
Dartenian fades into view.
A horde of Lawrence Welk fans decend on the area.
Dartenian whimpers softly.

Gah, who has the lyrics to that song? LOL


~Eoworfinia~
Dartenian fades into view.
A horde of Lawrence Welk fans decend on the area.
Dartenian whimpers softly.