I stumbled across this when reading up in the Barb section on the main page. It kinda cracked me up...

>>Weapon Forging

>>A barbarian's inherent understanding of weapons makes him or her a natural at the forge. Anyone can forge a crude weapon, but only barbarians can produce legendary quality weapons sought after by all.

Sooo any update on whether Barbs will be able to forge better weapons in the new system than everyone else? I mean:

Anyone else + skills = weapon
Barb + (same)skills SHOULD = better weapon (according to what is written on play.net, no matter what.

Just curious.

--Lonur Hellstar

>Sooo any update on whether Barbs will be able to forge better weapons in the new system than everyone else? I mean:

Yes. Word is "no". A rank is a rank for all of the new creation systems, with special perks that do other things by guild.


Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus

>> Yes. Word is "no". A rank is a rank for all of the new creation systems, with special perks that do other things by guild.

So... barbarians, Elanthia's weapon masters, get a bonus to neither using nor crafting weapons...

And more about barbarians, frankly.


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~Ternith Sjomah

Yolesi snorts and says to you, "Looks like you've been on a samatak binge. That's illegal, even in these parts, and I don't want any part of that trouble."

I was thinking we should have a "hidden" bonus like rangers and thieves do for Survival type things, and Paladins get for armor.

Just base it on our IF.

>Wasn't really a complaint either... although it always seemed to me that the crafting bonus for barbs made sense.

It making sense is moot. The fact that it's next to impossible to balance it means that bonuses will come from something other than the core system.


Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus

>Yes, making sense can never be good.

I suggest you look up the definition of moot.


Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus

i'd still like to see something that gives the established forgers at least a small "head's up"- namely, give some type of bonus based on number of weapons forged or armor fitted. That way it won't leave those that already have spent a decent amount of time crafting weapons/armor out in the cold.


<<Because it's a gigantic can of worms. Eldritch, necrotic, squamous worms, writhing in a vile stew of coagulating ichor, crushed from the living gullets of a thousand infant puppies, ululating in wordless terror. - Lorz>>

I'd like to see the established forgers all get a mark, no matter the guild.

The system is already in place for anyone that trained the skills to be able to forge but for the barbarian bonus to the grinding

Any trader, empath, warmage etc that worked all these years towards it can forge. Averalaan can pound out a severe slice mod impact 36 stone claymore for example. She just cannot grind it to bone crushing slice low impact. She can cap light and heavy chain armors.

As I've said on the lore page all they would really have to do is remove the current limitations to grinding if they wanted everyone to be able to finish off their weapons to the same extent. But was met with the response that Solomon wants all of the creation system based off lore. At that point I stopped posting on it. Sadly the barbarians will be getting hit more from this lore based change then Averalaan and other guilds will be.

Barbarians being the best weapon forgers never bothered me, what I never understood was why paladins weren't the best armor forgers, why there was no restriction there as well. I also don't understand is why it has to be based off lore when the system is already available for everyone but for that grinding limitation. Base the new stuff off lore if they want, not forging. But that's just my opinion.

>This has nothing to do with making sense. Why? Because I can argue the cases of bonuses in several different ways that all make sense. What is important is a consistant and balanced design approach and the ruling has been on a lore based system that does not have guild specific bonuses built into the formulas.

I understand completely, but I have seen over the years how logic has been unequally applied in the past so that guild A's ability makes sense from only guild A's perspective.

My comment was more along the lines of past experiences, not necessarily forging 2.0, even though I believe Barbarians and Paladins should benefit more from their primary skillsets when creating weapons and armor.

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Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!

>This has nothing to do with making sense. Why? Because I can argue the cases of bonuses in several different ways that all make sense. What is important is a consistant and balanced design approach and the ruling has been on a lore based system that does not have guild specific bonuses built into the formulas.

So essentially those of us that spent thousands of hours in the forge already learning the system, creating mixes and establishing ourselves as the best forgers and have proven that by earning our Maker's Mark are getting to take a back seat overall to empaths and traders who can afford the time to sit and fold paper if they so choose to dump their mech into smithing. I spent thousands of hours working in the forge learning how the metals interact with each other, how compression works, all the little ins and outs of it. But as of now, I've heard nothing that says that means anything in this new system. Matter of fact GMs have said that it doesn't.

Let's not let this one get out of hand everyone. Please keep the criticism constructive. I'd also recommend visiting the Lore folders and posting any suggestions you might have for both forging and the lore system as a whole. Thanks.


Questions and/or comments can be sent to MOD-Hagbar@play.net, Senior Board Moderator Annwyl at DR-Annwyl@play.net or Board Supervisor Cecco at DR-Cecco@play.net.

>>That's the whole problem and is what we've basically been told to shut up about. My suggestion would be that forging doesn't belong in the Lore folder ;>

I won't go so far as to say you've been told to shut up. However, you have all been told quite clearly that this is the chosen direction of developement per the top bosses and that arguing isn't going to change their minds.

GM Oolan Jeel

"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.

And I would Oolan, we've been told this is the way it's going to be so don't even bother to try to discuss it because it won't happen regardless of what the people actually paying for the game want.

As of now, non paladins can cap armor, non barbs can grind but can't cap. Here's the simple solution, make everyone able to cap with enough ranks in the weapons. Then everyone's happy. But we won't go that way, we'll just change it so lore tert guilds are screwed over completely.

>>And I would Oolan, we've been told this is the way it's going to be so don't even bother to try to discuss it because it won't happen regardless of what the people actually paying for the game want.

Please don't go there. There are "people actually paying for the game" on all possible sides of this discussion. Believe it or not we actually charge bards and traders the same amount to play the game as we do barbarians. War mages and Moon mages also share this same pay rate. In fact, I do believe that even commoners are charged the same rate. This isn't a discussion about how we should cater game design to any one person or groups tastes because they are paying customers. This is a discussion about moving forward with a new design approach on creation systems for ALL paying and playing customers and as I've said before we have reached a point where any decision made will upset some group.

>>As of now, non paladins can cap armor, non barbs can grind but can't cap. Here's the simple solution, make everyone able to cap with enough ranks in the weapons. Then everyone's happy. But we won't go that way, we'll just change it so lore tert guilds are screwed over completely.

That is one possible route. It was discussed and declined. As for the second part about lore tert guilds and their eventual competence within the system, that is pure conjecture. Just as you are completely grasping at straws to proclaim that traders and bards will become without exception the new weaponsmiths of the realms. I understand the cause of your concern and the source and logic of these claims but how about you wait until we can give you a few more details or perhaps even let us finish coding the system before you hop on the doom and gloom wagon and declare that we have completely destroyed the game? The decision to open the design to all guilds was made long before I was on staff and the choice of skills (which I fully support I will admit) was made by Ssra, Dartenian and Solomon. It will happen in one form or other as a shift to a lore focus in full or in large part. Continuing to argue the point is rather like trying to deny the existance of gravity. You can jump off a building and deny gravity all you want, but in the end the ground will still make a very strong argument for you having been wrong. I personally recomend you not make the leap, not deny the obvious and instead look for ways to make it work for you.

All I've heard to this point is how horrible it is to be forced to work a tertiary skill. However, quite frankly I've got a warrior mage who has evasion nearly on par with TM, one armor already over his weapon skills (and it is an armor I started working much later in his career) he can pop his own boxes, skin most of what he hunts and guess what? Those are all tertiary skills. If you really want to focus on being a barbarian weapon smith I promise it will be quite possible to do. Yes, it means less time spent hunting to pull off rather than the current model of hunting being what makes you a better smith. I'm sorry for that planned change hurting you. But it isn't a hurdle which cannot be overcome.

GM Oolan Jeel

"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.

>>>Why does one guild deserve to have both the most comprehensive set of combat abilities in the game >>>

Please explain this if you mean Barbarians.

If you mean having survival, armor and weapons as either primary or secondary see Rangers also.


If you mean something else please quantify.

>Believe it or not we actually charge bards and traders the same amount to play the game as we do barbarians.

Haha.

ps. Thank you for all the responses Oolan. I keep having knee jerk reaction everytime I have to fold origami.

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Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!

Some ramblings.

>>>The decision to open the design to all guilds was made long before I was on staff and the choice of skills (which I fully support I will admit) was made by Ssra, Dartenian and Solomon<<<

All crafts are allready open to all guilds,is there a guild that cant use a public forge? is there a guild that can't go stich a piece of leather together to go make armor?.Also some non barbs allready make the best weapons in some of the bugged molds that cannot be ground.

As your posts in the past have said and all you gms have said is it's all gonna be lore.So that's all we have to asume on, what it is gonna be like.Your taking some parts of Dr which made alot of people choose Barbs, Pallies instead of other guilds.They chose those guilds to forge because that was the reality in DR.

Those that chose the other guilds did so because what that guild had to offer was more important to them then forging.Your not only gonna give them creation skills ,your gonna take it away from someone else to do it.Itstead of creating new things for other guilds to make.

Also many mages I've talked to have said they have been told majik ranks will factor in on enchanting ect... Yet not on forging ...could this be clarified?

Alot of the gm's reasoning is just because theres 22 ish type of weapons in our primary set we should get nothing else.Yes we get no bonus to them except for learning them at a faster rate just like everyone else in other guilds for their primary.Yet other guilds get a passive bonus to their primary skills just by being in a certain enviroment.

This post is based off what little we have beeen allowed to know about the total make up of the new system.We have been told to wait and see so we will go away and be quiet yet what we are constantly told the system yields no light at the end of the tunnel.

I am sorry for what seems to you like beating a dead horse for everyone else I just returned after a 2 year break.I just felt to put in my 2 cents after all the money I have paid this compnay over the years to play here. I have read not a single valid post from the gm's of why it should be this new way .All their points are very weak and don't stand up at all.

But anyways thats my take on this change.I know that they won't consider changes but I'm entitled to share my thoughts on this.
If I get one pleasure outa this it's laughing at the way the gM's having been getting their backs up over the critisim and the type of posts they have made make them sound like the knee jerk reactions that usually come from the player base.

I know the new systems will probally be real kewl,just not for barbs so far.I just hope that mixing is still the biggest factor in making a good forged items.If the new forging dosent require alot of thinking on the players part I probally wouldnt want to be part of it amyways.That is the greatest appeal of the current system.

Anyways I'll go back to my dark corner.

Thanks for the reply and clarification.Like I said back to my corner on this debate .But had to say thanks for the reply.

>"design philosophy tells us one thing, game fiction tells us another"

I dont understand. What game fiction are you referring to?

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Tyrants are always loved until they are deposed. Long Live The Tyrants!