And after testing Wolverine for about 2 minutes.... Yea, it was mostly this:
...
* A long-fanged warcat lashes out with large, velvet-padded claws extended at you. You evade.
>
* A red bear orc bandit slices wide at you. You evade.
>
* A red bear orc bandit feints high at you. You dodge.
>
* A long-fanged warcat slices wide at you. You evade.
>
* A red bear orc bandit sweeps low at you. You block with a crocodile-skin buckler.
>
* A red bear orc bandit sweeps low at you. You evade.
>
* A red bear orc bandit chops wide at you. You evade.
...
It was outperforming Badger, even discounting the balance mod. Now, I know this isn't the case at higher level since I use 'em both everyday - but it seemed to be the case here.
Also, after a bit of testing - Wolverine was outperforming Blood/Stone offensively as well. I was actually able to kill them with Wolverine up. Couldn't with blood/stone(either parry or light hits - had to break out HT to get away LOL).
Strange, huh?
Looks like Ssra's changes to the 'minimum' bonus of dances put Wolverine/Dragon at a higher minimum base than before.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
GORTEOUS
MARTINCOTY77
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/09/2012 08:34 AM CDT
>>Strange, huh?
>>Looks like Ssra's changes to the 'minimum' bonus of dances put Wolverine/Dragon at a higher minimum base than before.
Yeah you are probably right - my tests were all probably 2-3 years ago. Looks like perhaps it changed because your results were an obvious win for Badger or wolverine. I know the concentration formula was updated at some point but don't remember exactly how it was changed. Here's another, "wish they would of updated that sooner!"
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>>Looks like Ssra's changes to the 'minimum' bonus of dances put Wolverine/Dragon at a higher minimum base than before.
Yeah you are probably right - my tests were all probably 2-3 years ago. Looks like perhaps it changed because your results were an obvious win for Badger or wolverine. I know the concentration formula was updated at some point but don't remember exactly how it was changed. Here's another, "wish they would of updated that sooner!"
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/09/2012 10:27 AM CDT
>>This would imply that low-level berserks are stronger than high-level dances, and that berserks just get progressively worse up until they lag behind dances. This should be directly observable in my case - 89 physical av. str/stam/ref/agi vs 85 mental av. int/wis/disc - but it most certainly isn't.
I don't quite follow? Berserks only get penalized if your mentals are higher than your physicals. They do not get consecutively penalized as your mentals get higher and higher. The key component is proportion of mentals to physicals, which is independent of level range.
>>What did compare Cobra against? You never mentioned what berserk. Also, you do realize that 5 points in Discipline is even less significant in this situation considering that Cobra has no stats boosts with it, right? It's not really a fair comparison considering all berserks give stat boosts. If you're going to compare, compare it with Wolverine/Dragon.
Keep something in mind: I'm not talking about berserks vs. dances all the time, I'm talking about berserks vs. dances at very low circles. If that's the case, I can't really compare Blood to Dragon, since a young Barbarian would not have Dragon. I think everyone can generally agree that at high circles, dances very much outperform berserks, on the whole, for everyday situations.
So you question "what berserk?" raises some issues, because part of the power of berserks is that they are stackable whereas dances are currently not, which goes a long way in determining their usefulness. So I don't think "Blood vs. Cobra" is a fair comparison, since Blood can be combined with Nightmare and Cyclone and Stone, whereas Cobra cannot be combined with Badger.
>>Also, after a bit of testing - Wolverine was outperforming Blood/Stone offensively as well. I was actually able to kill them with Wolverine up. Couldn't with blood/stone(either parry or light hits - had to break out HT to get away LOL).
This is from logs back in 2006 or whatever? Again, your berserks were massively penalized at the time. If you're doing the comparison right now, then yes, dances would be much better.
I don't quite follow? Berserks only get penalized if your mentals are higher than your physicals. They do not get consecutively penalized as your mentals get higher and higher. The key component is proportion of mentals to physicals, which is independent of level range.
>>What did compare Cobra against? You never mentioned what berserk. Also, you do realize that 5 points in Discipline is even less significant in this situation considering that Cobra has no stats boosts with it, right? It's not really a fair comparison considering all berserks give stat boosts. If you're going to compare, compare it with Wolverine/Dragon.
Keep something in mind: I'm not talking about berserks vs. dances all the time, I'm talking about berserks vs. dances at very low circles. If that's the case, I can't really compare Blood to Dragon, since a young Barbarian would not have Dragon. I think everyone can generally agree that at high circles, dances very much outperform berserks, on the whole, for everyday situations.
So you question "what berserk?" raises some issues, because part of the power of berserks is that they are stackable whereas dances are currently not, which goes a long way in determining their usefulness. So I don't think "Blood vs. Cobra" is a fair comparison, since Blood can be combined with Nightmare and Cyclone and Stone, whereas Cobra cannot be combined with Badger.
>>Also, after a bit of testing - Wolverine was outperforming Blood/Stone offensively as well. I was actually able to kill them with Wolverine up. Couldn't with blood/stone(either parry or light hits - had to break out HT to get away LOL).
This is from logs back in 2006 or whatever? Again, your berserks were massively penalized at the time. If you're doing the comparison right now, then yes, dances would be much better.
GORTEOUS
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/09/2012 04:48 PM CDT
>> This is from logs back in 2006 or whatever? Again, your berserks were massively penalized at the time. If you're doing the comparison right now, then yes, dances would be much better.
This was yesterday. I have a 53rd Barb whose stats and skills I pasted.
Wolverine and Badger both whooped Blood/Stone defense-wise.
Wolverine was outperforming Blood/Stone offensively as well.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
This was yesterday. I have a 53rd Barb whose stats and skills I pasted.
Wolverine and Badger both whooped Blood/Stone defense-wise.
Wolverine was outperforming Blood/Stone offensively as well.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
GREIFENTHAL
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/09/2012 06:14 PM CDT
I can verify that Badger Dance is now outperforming Berserk Stone for me as far as straight defense boosts, but not by much.
But also based on the test I just did I can confirm that Berserk Blood completely destroys Wolverine dance as an offense booster for me. I danced Wolverine first and used attack and logged through the dance, then Berserked Blood and used attack and didn't even need to log anything it was very obvious, I was hitting nearly every time with Blood where with Wolverine I was being parried nearly every time. As far as for how hard I was hitting it wasn't even close, Berserk Blood was vastly superior.
Physicals around 50,
Discipline at 30, other mentals in the 30s.
But also based on the test I just did I can confirm that Berserk Blood completely destroys Wolverine dance as an offense booster for me. I danced Wolverine first and used attack and logged through the dance, then Berserked Blood and used attack and didn't even need to log anything it was very obvious, I was hitting nearly every time with Blood where with Wolverine I was being parried nearly every time. As far as for how hard I was hitting it wasn't even close, Berserk Blood was vastly superior.
Physicals around 50,
Discipline at 30, other mentals in the 30s.
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/09/2012 06:21 PM CDT
since its possible to stack Blood+Stone back to back by 20's, can you stack nightmare on top of it all back to back by 50's?
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/09/2012 06:49 PM CDT
>>Wolverine was outperforming Blood/Stone offensively as well.
I'm really not sure what to tell you if those stats are correct, my experience is vastly different, and I counted hits when I was that level too.
>>But also based on the test I just did I can confirm that Berserk Blood completely destroys Wolverine dance as an offense booster for me. I danced Wolverine first and used attack and logged through the dance, then Berserked Blood and used attack and didn't even need to log anything it was very obvious, I was hitting nearly every time with Blood where with Wolverine I was being parried nearly every time. As far as for how hard I was hitting it wasn't even close, Berserk Blood was vastly superior.
^ This
I'm really not sure what to tell you if those stats are correct, my experience is vastly different, and I counted hits when I was that level too.
>>But also based on the test I just did I can confirm that Berserk Blood completely destroys Wolverine dance as an offense booster for me. I danced Wolverine first and used attack and logged through the dance, then Berserked Blood and used attack and didn't even need to log anything it was very obvious, I was hitting nearly every time with Blood where with Wolverine I was being parried nearly every time. As far as for how hard I was hitting it wasn't even close, Berserk Blood was vastly superior.
^ This
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/09/2012 06:50 PM CDT
>>since its possible to stack Blood+Stone back to back by 20's, can you stack nightmare on top of it all back to back by 50's?
Very easily, just tier Nightmare by a minute or two.
Very easily, just tier Nightmare by a minute or two.
CHRISSY-QUE
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/10/2012 03:24 AM CDT
Guys, why are you debating this? Don't you realize Gort is the authority on everything barb and if he says it's so, it's so. In fact, the code will rewrite itself just to support his claims if it's not so.
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/10/2012 03:59 AM CDT
>In fact, the code will rewrite itself just to support his claims if it's not so.
GASP Gort is Chuck Norris!
GASP Gort is Chuck Norris!
GORTEOUS
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/10/2012 12:34 PM CDT
>> Guys, why are you debating this? Don't you realize Gort is the authority on everything barb and if he says it's so, it's so. In fact, the code will rewrite itself just to support his claims if it's not so.
Hah, as if.
I gave info and results for everything I tested. Offense on Wolverine vs Blood+Stone was pretty close, though.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
Hah, as if.
I gave info and results for everything I tested. Offense on Wolverine vs Blood+Stone was pretty close, though.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
MARTINCOTY77
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/10/2012 01:41 PM CDT
>>I gave info and results for everything I tested. Offense on Wolverine vs Blood+Stone was pretty close, though.
You should do a new offensive test on cobra vs blood+stone. Cobra should have a higher melee offensive boost than wolverine but I would be interested in seeing if it now beats out the berserk combo since the changes.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
You should do a new offensive test on cobra vs blood+stone. Cobra should have a higher melee offensive boost than wolverine but I would be interested in seeing if it now beats out the berserk combo since the changes.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
GREIFENTHAL
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/10/2012 04:14 PM CDT
>You should do a new offensive test on cobra vs blood+stone.
Why would you wonder if cobra beats out berserks on his character when he has already stated that wolverine does?
Why would you wonder if cobra beats out berserks on his character when he has already stated that wolverine does?
GORTEOUS
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/10/2012 04:15 PM CDT
I made a simple script to calculate the difference - all it does is ATTACK and records the number of attacks against a bandit with this:
action (tst) math i add 1 when ^< You (feint|thrust|lunge|charge) .+ at a red bear orc bandit\.
It only triggers on attacks against bandits, and it only records them after it dies(adds to total).
action (tst) goto loot when ^The orc bandit looks down with a faintly surprised expression before collapsing upon the ground\.
(they only have 1 death message)
Results:
Cobra:
Timer: 1000
Kills: 20
Blows: 155
Average of blows per kill: 7.75
Blood+Stone:
Timer: 1000
Kills: 18
Blows: 163
Average of blows per kill: 9.05555555555556
I was trying to capture Wolverine, but apparently I need to set the timer lower - he can only maintain Wolverine for about 13-14 minutes. That's about how long it ran here:
Wolverine:
Timer: 1000
Kills: 11
Blows: 94
Average of blows per kill: 8.54545454545455
The kill count is a bit lower - I used a warhorn for the first two(spawn is not v. good).
I'll try 2 500 second sessions instead.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
action (tst) math i add 1 when ^< You (feint|thrust|lunge|charge) .+ at a red bear orc bandit\.
It only triggers on attacks against bandits, and it only records them after it dies(adds to total).
action (tst) goto loot when ^The orc bandit looks down with a faintly surprised expression before collapsing upon the ground\.
(they only have 1 death message)
Results:
Cobra:
Timer: 1000
Kills: 20
Blows: 155
Average of blows per kill: 7.75
Blood+Stone:
Timer: 1000
Kills: 18
Blows: 163
Average of blows per kill: 9.05555555555556
I was trying to capture Wolverine, but apparently I need to set the timer lower - he can only maintain Wolverine for about 13-14 minutes. That's about how long it ran here:
Wolverine:
Timer: 1000
Kills: 11
Blows: 94
Average of blows per kill: 8.54545454545455
The kill count is a bit lower - I used a warhorn for the first two(spawn is not v. good).
I'll try 2 500 second sessions instead.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
MARTINCOTY77
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/12/2012 02:16 AM CDT
>>Why would you wonder if cobra beats out berserks on his character when he has already stated that wolverine does?
I guess I worded it wrongly - I was interested in seeing the difference between the two tests (wolverine vs berserks) vs (cobra vs berserks) since I said cobra should be a higher melee boost. It appears he got the gist.
Interesting data Gort, thanks - looking forward to the next round if you end up doing it.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
I guess I worded it wrongly - I was interested in seeing the difference between the two tests (wolverine vs berserks) vs (cobra vs berserks) since I said cobra should be a higher melee boost. It appears he got the gist.
Interesting data Gort, thanks - looking forward to the next round if you end up doing it.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
