Well, I'm a 57th barbarian who generally doesn't use abilities within combat other than Berserk Stone, as I dance with 4 critters constantly and work primarily defenses with some weapons. I'm definitely a defensive fighter. I was dancing with a peccary waiting for more to come in and went to grab a drink from the kitchen. When I came back there was a Lun'Shele Trekhalo attacking me, which had wandered in from the game trail. Never tried fighting them before as they are above my current abilities to even touch normally, but since I was under Berserk Stone in preparation for 4 bristle back peccaries, I could not retreat and figured I would give Berserk Blood a shot. This was my first time ever using it and boy was I impressed.
Str - 54, stam - 45, agi - 35, ref - 35. Stopped training Disc at 25 as I hear at 26 it drops down the power of berserks and as I roleplay a berserker and it's the only abilities I prefer to use, I keep it at 25. So here is a log of what happened before I berserked and then after. I removed the parrying of the peccary at my flank, as it did nothing but get parried so it's pointless to add in.
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo sweeps low at you. You counter most of the club with a blackened bastard sword etched with a multitude of severed heads. The club lands a light hit to your right arm.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent dominating.]
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo sidesteps and bashes at you. You turn aside most of the club with a blackened bastard sword etched with a multitude of severed heads. The club lands a grazing strike to your right eye.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent in excellent position.]
>
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo swings a splintered war club at you. You counter most of the club with a blackened bastard sword etched with a multitude of severed heads. The club lands a grazing blow to your right arm.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
Your rage burns harshly, quickening your step and reactions.
>face trek
You turn to face a Lun'Shele trekhalo, leaving the bristle-backed peccary on your flank at melee!
>elbow
< You elbow your leather clad elbow at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo deflects the elbow with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent in excellent position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo feints high at you. You deflect most of the club with a blackened bastard sword etched with a multitude of severed heads. The club lands a grazing blow to your chest.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent in superior position.]
>
>punch
< You punch your plate clad fist at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo turns aside the fist with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent in superior position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
>claw
< You claw your fingers at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo beats off the fingers with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with opponent in very strong position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
>kick
>
A Lun'Shele trekhalo chatters something, and makes a strange gesture. A slight wind stirs its hair and the feathers in its garb.
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo sweeps low at you. You beat off some of the club with a blackened bastard sword etched with a multitude of severed heads. The club lands a glancing blow to your chest.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced and opponent has slight advantage.]
>
< You kick your foot at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo slaps away the foot with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with no advantage.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
>elbow
< You elbow your leather clad elbow at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo fends off the elbow with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with no advantage.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo sidesteps and bashes at you. You repulse some of the club with a blackened bastard sword etched with a multitude of severed heads. The club lands a light hit to your right hand.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with opponent in good position.]
>punch
< You punch your plate clad fist at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo deflects the fist with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with opponent in good position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
>
Your rage burns harshly, quickening your step and reactions.
>claw
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo swings a splintered war club at you. You deflect some of the club with a blackened bastard sword etched with a multitude of severed heads. The club lands a glancing strike to your chest.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
< You claw your fingers at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo beats off the fingers with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent in excellent position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
>kick
>
With a snort of pure porcine pleasure, a bristle-backed peccary rubs its belly in the mud.
>
< You kick your foot at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo deflects the foot with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with opponent in superior position.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
>exp
Circle: 57
Showing all skills with field experience.
SKILL: Rank/Percent towards next rank/Amount learning/Mindstate Fraction
Shield Usage: 264 74% enthralled (32/34) Leather Armor: 287 38% mind lock (34/34)
Heavy Plate: 241 11% very rapt (31/34) Parry Ability: 314 34% mind lock (34/34)
Multi Opponent: 316 91% very riveted (29/34) Twohanded Edged: 233 28% attentive (10/34)
Brawling: 303 54% mind lock (34/34) Evasion: 284 63% mind lock (34/34)
Perception: 173 15% learning (3/34) Foraging: 181 70% examining (13/34)
Appraisal: 188 78% rapt (30/34)
Total Ranks Displayed: 2784
Time Development Points: 65 Favors: 5 Deaths: 20 Departs: 2
Overall state of mind: clear
EXP HELP for more information
>
The Lun'Shele trekhalo moves into a position to dodge.
>put swo in hav
You put your sword in your soldier's haversack.
>get il
You get a razor-edged dueling iltesh from inside your soldier's haversack.
>
The sun rises in a crisp, clear blue sky, heralding another fine day.
>
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo bashes a splintered war club at you. You deflect some of the club with a razor-edged dueling iltesh. The club lands a good hit to your left leg.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with opponent in excellent position.]
>elbow
< You elbow your leather clad elbow at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo fends off the elbow with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, incredibly balanced with opponent in excellent position.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>
Your rage burns harshly, quickening your step and reactions.
>punch
< You punch your plate clad fist at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo repulses the fist with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent in superior position.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
>
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo sweeps low at you. You beat off little of the club with a razor-edged dueling iltesh. The club lands a good hit to your right arm.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent dominating.]
>
* A bristle-backed peccary lowers its head, tilts it to one side, and slashes its curved tusks at you. You turn aside the tusk with a razor-edged dueling iltesh.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced and have slight advantage.]
at this point I figured I'm not having a lot of luck, so might as well try another berserk
>berserk blood
>
* A Lun'Shele trekhalo sidesteps and bashes at you. You turn aside some of the club with a razor-edged dueling iltesh. The club lands a light hit to your abdomen.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
>
You sense the rage within you well up and explode in a violent whirlwind of dangerous power. The world dissolves in blood-red shadow, and your heart pounds madly within your chest, igniting bone, sinew, and muscle with savage strength!
>elbow
< You elbow your leather clad elbow at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo counters the elbow with a splintered war club.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced with opponent overwhelming you.]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
>punch
< You punch your plate clad fist at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo turns aside nearly all the fist with a splintered war club. The fist lands a strong hit that crushes the pelvis with a loud snap, lightly stunning it.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
>
* A bristle-backed peccary slices wide at you. You repulse the tusk with a razor-edged dueling iltesh.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced and in good position.]
>claw
< You claw your fingers at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo repulses most of the fingers with a splintered war club. The fingers lands a heavy strike that crunches bone and rips flesh so that the right leg is left hanging by a few bloody sinews.
A Lun'Shele trekhalo screams and falls to the ground grasping its mangled right leg!
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 2 sec.]
>kick
< You kick your foot at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo beats off some of the foot with a splintered war club. The foot lands an extremely heavy hit that leaves it with a short bloody stump of a left leg.
[You're invigorated, energetic, shaky, nimbly balanced and overwhelming opponent.]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
>elbow
Your rage burns harshly, quickening your step and reactions.
>
< You elbow your leather clad elbow at a Lun'Shele trekhalo. A Lun'Shele trekhalo beats off some of the elbow with a splintered war club. The elbow lands an extremely heavy hit that blasts clean through the right leg with a well-placed swing that throws blood and bone splinters everywhere.
A Lun'Shele trekhalo grows still.
[You're incredibly balanced]
[Roundtime 1 sec.]
Now that's more like it!
BULGRIM
SMASHEDMAN
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/13/2010 10:33 PM CST
Holy crap, you limit your Discipline just to make sure you've got strong berserks, and then you don't even use Blood until 57th circle... Amazing. In swarmy situations feel free to stack blood and stone all day long, the inner fire hit is fairly small for those two. And if you just get 2-3 kills a minute, go ahead and toss Nightmare on top of them.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/14/2010 02:45 PM CST
Berserking information (especially for your circle):
* The "penalty" discipline, intelligence, and wisdom applies to berserks only happens if your mentals are considerably higher than your physical stats. I have no way of searching posts to provide a link, but this has been stated explicitly before by previous Barbarian GMs. There isn't a line with mentals that if you cross you get penalized; it's all relative to your physical stats. Given discipline affects shield and (IIRC) parry calcs, I'd start boosting it since your physical stats are so buffed.
* Remember Blood, Stone, Nightmare and Cyclone are all stackable. If you are defensive berserker (something of an oxymoron, but one I enjoy), I would recommend stacking Cyclone and Stone at your level. Cyclone Berserk is the highest defensive buff available right around that level in my experience, even moreso than the defensive dances, though dances are % boosts so eventually they become much better. Play around a bit in small mobs while back-training weapons and see if you can fit in Nightmare too.
Hope that helps.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
* The "penalty" discipline, intelligence, and wisdom applies to berserks only happens if your mentals are considerably higher than your physical stats. I have no way of searching posts to provide a link, but this has been stated explicitly before by previous Barbarian GMs. There isn't a line with mentals that if you cross you get penalized; it's all relative to your physical stats. Given discipline affects shield and (IIRC) parry calcs, I'd start boosting it since your physical stats are so buffed.
* Remember Blood, Stone, Nightmare and Cyclone are all stackable. If you are defensive berserker (something of an oxymoron, but one I enjoy), I would recommend stacking Cyclone and Stone at your level. Cyclone Berserk is the highest defensive buff available right around that level in my experience, even moreso than the defensive dances, though dances are % boosts so eventually they become much better. Play around a bit in small mobs while back-training weapons and see if you can fit in Nightmare too.
Hope that helps.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
JMF90
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/14/2010 02:50 PM CST
>and (IIRC) parry calcs
Pretty sure it doesn't, just shield.
Pretty sure it doesn't, just shield.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/14/2010 03:38 PM CST
>>* Remember Blood, Stone, Nightmare and Cyclone are all stackable. If you are defensive berserker (something of an oxymoron, but one I enjoy), I would recommend stacking Cyclone and Stone at your level. Cyclone Berserk is the highest defensive buff available right around that level in my experience, even moreso than the defensive dances, though dances are % boosts so eventually they become much better. Play around a bit in small mobs while back-training weapons and see if you can fit in Nightmare too.
Er, I am thinking that advice might get him dead no? Stacking stone and cyclone at 57th.....unless he times it and leaves before collapsing? I would at least test it with a lower weapon in a lower hunting ground first.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Er, I am thinking that advice might get him dead no? Stacking stone and cyclone at 57th.....unless he times it and leaves before collapsing? I would at least test it with a lower weapon in a lower hunting ground first.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/14/2010 03:47 PM CST
>>Stacking stone and cyclone at 57th.....unless he times it and leaves before collapsing? I would at least test it with a lower weapon in a lower hunting ground first.
He should be right around the level where stacking Cyclone with one other berserk becomes viable. I like Nightmare + Cyclone because Nightmare is low-cost and he could retreat with that combination if necessary. In any case, I recommended he play around with his berserks in a lower hunting area already.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
He should be right around the level where stacking Cyclone with one other berserk becomes viable. I like Nightmare + Cyclone because Nightmare is low-cost and he could retreat with that combination if necessary. In any case, I recommended he play around with his berserks in a lower hunting area already.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
GREIFENTHAL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/14/2010 10:41 PM CST
>The "penalty" discipline, intelligence, and wisdom applies to berserks only happens if your mentals are considerably higher than your physical stats. I have no way of searching posts to provide a link, but this has been stated explicitly before by previous Barbarian GMs. There isn't a line with mentals that if you cross you get penalized; it's all relative to your physical stats. Given discipline affects shield and (IIRC) parry calcs, I'd start boosting it since your physical stats are so buffed.
Funny I remember them saying that discipline was the main factor, there is a set point where it will affect berserks, and the only way to negate or reduce that is to have your physicals so far ahead of it that the penalty is no longer felt(if there is not a baseline penalty). No one knows how far that is, so keeping discipline low is the safe route; unless you are training for the rewrite.
My discipline is at 25 and with 350 some parry and shield parry outperforms shield pretty well. So it probably doesn't weight as heavily towards parry if it does at all, and I am thinking that it does not. I am probably going to keep disc there till the rewrite or something else comes up that changes my mind; but I figure why not.
Funny I remember them saying that discipline was the main factor, there is a set point where it will affect berserks, and the only way to negate or reduce that is to have your physicals so far ahead of it that the penalty is no longer felt(if there is not a baseline penalty). No one knows how far that is, so keeping discipline low is the safe route; unless you are training for the rewrite.
My discipline is at 25 and with 350 some parry and shield parry outperforms shield pretty well. So it probably doesn't weight as heavily towards parry if it does at all, and I am thinking that it does not. I am probably going to keep disc there till the rewrite or something else comes up that changes my mind; but I figure why not.
SUGARSNOUT
BULGRIM
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 04:55 AM CST
I just remember multiple people stating that when they went from 25 disc to 26, they noticed the strength of their berserks were less effective. Others then stated that there is a specific point around that area, possibly 26, that no matter what your stats are, it lowers the power of them. Figured I don't want to test it out and go past 25 until more is determined since I can't undo stats and I do pretty well defensively. Will try out cyclone and see how it goes :) I say I'm a berserker, but generally I don't use any abilities, just stats and my rank skills, but use stone as it reduces the damage I recieve and I can effectively hunt for days without getting anything more than scuffing. Granted my poor first aid skill, which sits at 126 says I should start letting some damage get through :/
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 06:00 PM CST
>>I just remember multiple people stating that when they went from 25 disc to 26, they noticed the strength of their berserks were less effective
There are tons of myths people perpetuate about berserks, this being a popular one.
Please don't listen to billboard heresy ("I heard from a guy who heard from a guy who vaguely recalls hearing a GM state...") and penalize your mentals to keep high berserks; you're only hurting your learning rate. Berserks cap out around 21 minutes. I have the same max berserk length I have now with mentals 30+ that I do when I had sub-20 discipline.
I tested my strength bonus using roundtime calculations and I am getting the same strength boost with Blood that I did fifteen circles ago. Some penalty for mentals is definitely present (and will probably disappear with the rewrite anyways), as this has been explicitly stated, but I am almost positive it is a penalty for mentals higher than physicals and not at set levels, and I can say you're safe up to 40 or so mentals, and if you're keeping your stats relatively even you should be fine until about circle 80, when dances are so much better anyways that you wouldn't be using berserks except for roleplay reasons. Train your mentals.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
There are tons of myths people perpetuate about berserks, this being a popular one.
Please don't listen to billboard heresy ("I heard from a guy who heard from a guy who vaguely recalls hearing a GM state...") and penalize your mentals to keep high berserks; you're only hurting your learning rate. Berserks cap out around 21 minutes. I have the same max berserk length I have now with mentals 30+ that I do when I had sub-20 discipline.
I tested my strength bonus using roundtime calculations and I am getting the same strength boost with Blood that I did fifteen circles ago. Some penalty for mentals is definitely present (and will probably disappear with the rewrite anyways), as this has been explicitly stated, but I am almost positive it is a penalty for mentals higher than physicals and not at set levels, and I can say you're safe up to 40 or so mentals, and if you're keeping your stats relatively even you should be fine until about circle 80, when dances are so much better anyways that you wouldn't be using berserks except for roleplay reasons. Train your mentals.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
GREIFENTHAL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 06:14 PM CST
Discipline does not affect learning rate at this point. We are going to have to agree to disagree because I have as little access to the posts in question that you do. I do not think that intelligence and wisdom affects berserks in any way at all.
I do not believe that I came up with the idea out of thin air that it will be affected at a certain level of discipline, but getting your strength, stamina and agility high enough ABOVE discipline reduces the penalty significantly. What you are saying is that they only have to be one point higher, I am saying it is on a scale of relative position.
[[(agility+strength+stamina)/3]-discipline]>??=minimal penalized berserks post 25 discipline(or somewheres around there).
This is the jist of what I remember and just like you we are both drawing from memory.
I do not believe that I came up with the idea out of thin air that it will be affected at a certain level of discipline, but getting your strength, stamina and agility high enough ABOVE discipline reduces the penalty significantly. What you are saying is that they only have to be one point higher, I am saying it is on a scale of relative position.
[[(agility+strength+stamina)/3]-discipline]>??=minimal penalized berserks post 25 discipline(or somewheres around there).
This is the jist of what I remember and just like you we are both drawing from memory.
PENDUS
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 07:21 PM CST
I can't remember anyone ever posting anything like that. And it sure as hell would not be a GM.
GREIFENTHAL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 07:43 PM CST
The more I try to remember the more I think that it was a conversation at the true path tent with Niamah and Iayn and a few other barbarians that happened to be there, actually. But whatever it makes no difference to me train how you want. I am training my barbarian to utilize berserks as good as possible right now but disc being a negative return is likely to go away for a variety of reasons so in the long run it may hinder your character to do so.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 07:50 PM CST
>>What you are saying is that they only have to be one point higher
No, I am not. I am saying:
1) The penalty is not at 26 discipline. This is patently false, and I have verified through actual testing that neither berserk duration nor the strength of berserk bonuses (at least to the stat bonuses) is magically lowered if you go from 25 discipline to 26 discipline.
2) The penalty is probably (though not assurely) discipline relative to strength, stamina, agility and reflex. In a nutshell, exhaustive testing of berserks has led me to the conclusion that I can train stats however I want, given I am in the habit of keeping them relatively well-rounded. At times discipline has been a few points higher than all physicals; at times my intelligence, wisdom, charisma and discipline were all 5+ points higher than my lowest physical (usually stamina). I have never noticed any penalty to beserks, and continue to use them as my Barbarian's primary abilities.
Note that I'm not saying the penalty is not at other, much higher, set levels. I don't have formulas, and I haven't tested at 99 discipline. I'm also not trying to be belligerent, but "agreeing to disagree" over something which can be verified with five minutes of actual testing is silly. The only reason I am so adamant about this is because I like berserks and want people to know they can use them without nerfing their shield blocking, stealth (well, besides the tiny hiding penalty, I mean), learning rate, etc.
Use berserks and train stats however you want, just don't neglect your physicals. As a Barbarian you should be doing that anyways.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
No, I am not. I am saying:
1) The penalty is not at 26 discipline. This is patently false, and I have verified through actual testing that neither berserk duration nor the strength of berserk bonuses (at least to the stat bonuses) is magically lowered if you go from 25 discipline to 26 discipline.
2) The penalty is probably (though not assurely) discipline relative to strength, stamina, agility and reflex. In a nutshell, exhaustive testing of berserks has led me to the conclusion that I can train stats however I want, given I am in the habit of keeping them relatively well-rounded. At times discipline has been a few points higher than all physicals; at times my intelligence, wisdom, charisma and discipline were all 5+ points higher than my lowest physical (usually stamina). I have never noticed any penalty to beserks, and continue to use them as my Barbarian's primary abilities.
Note that I'm not saying the penalty is not at other, much higher, set levels. I don't have formulas, and I haven't tested at 99 discipline. I'm also not trying to be belligerent, but "agreeing to disagree" over something which can be verified with five minutes of actual testing is silly. The only reason I am so adamant about this is because I like berserks and want people to know they can use them without nerfing their shield blocking, stealth (well, besides the tiny hiding penalty, I mean), learning rate, etc.
Use berserks and train stats however you want, just don't neglect your physicals. As a Barbarian you should be doing that anyways.
"Limited in nature yet infinite in desire - men are like fallen gods."
- Alphonse de Lamartine
BULGRIM
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 07:57 PM CST
not sure about any of it, so I'll just do as I do and hope I'm not too wrong. Either way, I enjoy how he's trained and he is a little battle tank. My mentals could definitely be higher, but I circle very often so I'm pretty happy with them. I'm sure my defense against magic is awful, though. But I do know my Berserk Stone runs for almost exactly 30 minutes every time if I'm in combat.
GREIFENTHAL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/15/2010 08:33 PM CST
>1) The penalty is not at 26 discipline. This is patently false, and I have verified through actual testing that neither berserk duration nor the strength of berserk bonuses (at least to the stat bonuses) is magically lowered if you go from 25 discipline to 26 discipline.
Just because it is not at 26 disc does not mean it is not somewhere around there. Or that the skill boost was lowered at that point.
>>2) The penalty is probably (though not assurely) discipline relative to strength, stamina, agility and reflex. In a nutshell, exhaustive testing of berserks has led me to the conclusion that I can train stats however I want, given I am in the habit of keeping them relatively well-rounded. At times discipline has been a few points higher than all physicals; at times my intelligence, wisdom, charisma and discipline were all 5+ points higher than my lowest physical (usually stamina). I have never noticed any penalty to beserks, and continue to use them as my Barbarian's primary abilities.
Exhaustive testing? Did you test during the respec or something like that? Multiple characters? Keeping your stats well rounded does not exactly show you all the possible situations. Also, your penalty would be constant and somewhat offset by raising physicals in that situation so it is possible you would not see the difference. About where are your stats at now?
>"agreeing to disagree" over something which can be verified with five minutes of actual testing is silly.
you can not prove anything about this in 5 minutes. Except that maybe training discipline from 25 to 26 does not lower strength in berserk blood. I guess I just disagree.
>Use berserks and train stats however you want, just don't neglect your physicals. As a Barbarian you should be doing that anyways.
Agreed.
Just because it is not at 26 disc does not mean it is not somewhere around there. Or that the skill boost was lowered at that point.
>>2) The penalty is probably (though not assurely) discipline relative to strength, stamina, agility and reflex. In a nutshell, exhaustive testing of berserks has led me to the conclusion that I can train stats however I want, given I am in the habit of keeping them relatively well-rounded. At times discipline has been a few points higher than all physicals; at times my intelligence, wisdom, charisma and discipline were all 5+ points higher than my lowest physical (usually stamina). I have never noticed any penalty to beserks, and continue to use them as my Barbarian's primary abilities.
Exhaustive testing? Did you test during the respec or something like that? Multiple characters? Keeping your stats well rounded does not exactly show you all the possible situations. Also, your penalty would be constant and somewhat offset by raising physicals in that situation so it is possible you would not see the difference. About where are your stats at now?
>"agreeing to disagree" over something which can be verified with five minutes of actual testing is silly.
you can not prove anything about this in 5 minutes. Except that maybe training discipline from 25 to 26 does not lower strength in berserk blood. I guess I just disagree.
>Use berserks and train stats however you want, just don't neglect your physicals. As a Barbarian you should be doing that anyways.
Agreed.
JESSEPEN
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/16/2010 08:00 PM CST
I use berserks as a constant hunting tool. I almost never dance. When I trained from 25 disc to 26 disc I saw a noticeable hit to berserk skill boosts and durations.
Discipline was my lowest stat by 4 or 5 points.
You'll probably only notice the difference if 1) You're a consistent berserker (and berserk stacker), 2) Your physical stats are higher than your discipline, so your berserks were boosted beforehand, and 3) Your physicals aren't so much higher than your discipline that they outweigh the discipline hit at 26.
Discipline was my lowest stat by 4 or 5 points.
You'll probably only notice the difference if 1) You're a consistent berserker (and berserk stacker), 2) Your physical stats are higher than your discipline, so your berserks were boosted beforehand, and 3) Your physicals aren't so much higher than your discipline that they outweigh the discipline hit at 26.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/16/2010 08:38 PM CST
>>the discipline hit at 26.
That still does not mean that a particular berserk hit is from 25-26, just that perhaps your own individual stats are set up that maybe it was for you?
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That still does not mean that a particular berserk hit is from 25-26, just that perhaps your own individual stats are set up that maybe it was for you?
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
SANGGYEDORJE
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/17/2010 01:48 AM CST
I am a berserker, berserk almost all the time and I saw no hit at all from raising my disc to 26 (still lower that my physicals by far though)
MARTINCOTY77
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/17/2010 06:28 AM CST
Yeah I still berserk all the time and for quite awhile kept my disc relatively low.....now its at 60, tied for highest stat and my lower berserks still outperform some of my dances.
Berserks are awesome for melee combat training hands down.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Berserks are awesome for melee combat training hands down.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
GREIFENTHAL
Re: berserk blood, how you save me!
02/17/2010 11:18 AM CST
Could it have the most to do with inner-fire usage.
As discipline increases, inner fire usage for berserks increases, and decreases for dances. Or the ability to dance or berserk back to back; another way to say inner-fire usage. Right now I can berserk stone blood and nightmare back to back for about as long as I want given there is a steady stream of creatures without crumpling. We already know that for dances the more discipline the more likelihood to be able to dance back to back.
My main goal is to check out higher level berserks with low discipline, maybe the penalties for berserking are not so harsh then. I would not suggest anyone that wants to be well rounded or prepared for changes to go this route, heck I might not even make it there before the changes are implemented. So I don't really suggest keeping discipline low to anyone who really wants the most well rounded character possible. In fact, I will admit that the only penalty may in fact be inner-fire usage, it is possible. Str/Stamina/Agility may only have to be like 10 higher than discipline to negate whatever the penalties are. I am surprised no-one seems to have tested during the respec. If I was high enough character then I certainly would have.
I suspect that the lower berserks take less killing to fill up the inner-fire pool. This is why they seem superior to all other berserks regardless of discipline levels. The higher berserks take more killing of higher creatures, add in a probable discipline hit to inner-fire usage during berserks and this is my theory about what most people are seeing at high levels when they say that they are unusable.
As discipline increases, inner fire usage for berserks increases, and decreases for dances. Or the ability to dance or berserk back to back; another way to say inner-fire usage. Right now I can berserk stone blood and nightmare back to back for about as long as I want given there is a steady stream of creatures without crumpling. We already know that for dances the more discipline the more likelihood to be able to dance back to back.
My main goal is to check out higher level berserks with low discipline, maybe the penalties for berserking are not so harsh then. I would not suggest anyone that wants to be well rounded or prepared for changes to go this route, heck I might not even make it there before the changes are implemented. So I don't really suggest keeping discipline low to anyone who really wants the most well rounded character possible. In fact, I will admit that the only penalty may in fact be inner-fire usage, it is possible. Str/Stamina/Agility may only have to be like 10 higher than discipline to negate whatever the penalties are. I am surprised no-one seems to have tested during the respec. If I was high enough character then I certainly would have.
I suspect that the lower berserks take less killing to fill up the inner-fire pool. This is why they seem superior to all other berserks regardless of discipline levels. The higher berserks take more killing of higher creatures, add in a probable discipline hit to inner-fire usage during berserks and this is my theory about what most people are seeing at high levels when they say that they are unusable.
