1. Go chain. Preferably light. Protection is as good as heavy chain but weighs less. Avoid plate unless its for side training and TDPs. Don't make plate your primary.

2. Train shield. Just suck it up and start using it. You'll thank me when you get older.

3. Stop with the strength. I know you're a tog but get those reflexes up. Getting them to 20 should be your next step.

4. Regardless of what armor you train, practice hiding and stalking. Throw it into your training regiment. If you can't hide in your current armor just yet get Lash of Torment roar, use it, hide engage retreat. Once your voice comes back do it again.

You'll regret not training hiding and stalking later on trust me. Those are two survival skills you can actively and easily learn in combat where as you'd normally have to stop to swim or juggle.

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

I agree with Galren on most of what he said. The one thing I wanted to point out is your armor - it's tough to successfully hide on a critter when you're small with very little agility if you're wearing chain. If you plan on being a stealth hunter primarily, use leather or a leather/LC mix. If you plan on hunting any other way, use LC or an LC/HC mix for more TDPs. Unless you just want to be a berserking tank, don't bother with plate.

My barb is just under 30th right now and is a stealth-hunter to the core; he wears superior firecat leathers with LC head/eye/neck, gloves and a tanned buckler (small shield). I'd prefer to wear full LC because it protects noticeably better, but it just hinders my stealth too much at this point.

mid 140s leather
mid 120s LC
110 shield
mid 150s hiding
low 140s stalking



Side note:
Ever since Z fiddled with creature perception a month or 2 ago, I've noticed a significant gain in hiding over stalking. Starting off with a clear mind, hide at missile, stalk, advance to melee an my Hiding goes to Pondering and Stalking to Learning. Is this intended?


________
Re: Life mana Spell preps

You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.

I didn't really start training chains till you could train multiple armors at once. But since then, I've worn leather as my main armor with a LC helm and HC gloves. I use this set up for most of my hunting. I do go with leather gloves and mask sometimes when training hiding. It just depends on where I'm training.

Shield Usage: 454 Leather Armor: 604
Light Chain: 432 Heavy Chain: 380
Light Plate: 67 Heavy Plate: 88
Hiding: 533 Stalking: 486

I don't really regret not training plate armor because I'm still trying to maximize my dance times and power so that dragon is a useable hunting tool. I'm barely there right now.

So, my advice would be: Train shield and hiding/stalking. Choose whatever armor you want for a primary armor, as long as it's not cloth, bone or plate. Then train any other armors for tdp's as you feel necessary.

-Gavyn

---

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Awesome responses everyone I really appreciate it.

I have a few more questions though.

>>1. Go chain. Preferably light. Protection is as good as heavy chain but weighs less. Avoid plate unless its for side training and TDPs. Don't make plate your primary.<<

I thought that mixing armors gave a penalty to armor hinderance. It seems that if I am going to mix armors that I should wear my leathers, leather helm, and some HP gaunts and gorget. I already have 65 HP and the helm and gauntlets shouldnt be too hindering, I find I can hide and stalk in them (lightly hindered I believe.) However I just thought that it was affecting my dances more negatively and therefor not worth it.

Do you still believe that it would be worth me switching to LC? I noticed that at 300, the penalties don't seem to be that bad for HP according to this post:

>>Well I have a full set of HP and can get down to light hind. If I had trained LP and gone with a armet helm, I would be even lower. In this hp setup (half plate, great helm, gauntlets and greaves) I find I only lose about 15% of my dance time.

Heavy Plate: 307 Leather Armor: 510 Shield Usage: 316<<

For myself I would think this would be even lessened becaue I would be wearing a mix with only a few pieces of plate. The reason I currently have a leather helm is because it is a unique item and I am loathe to part with it. :>

>>2. Train shield. Just suck it up and start using it. You'll thank me when you get older.<<

What stance set up do you use? I currently am using 100% evasion 82% parry. Obviously if I am backtraining my shield I will focus more on it but once I am even what stance would you recommend?

>>3. Stop with the strength. I know you're a tog but get those reflexes up. Getting them to 20 should be your next step.<<

I got the impression that perhaps my next step would be Charisma. If I am going to be using dances and roars I was told it makes a large difference in their effect, and basically if I am NOT going to use them then I would think that I would be the berserking tank mentioned later down the line and perhaps plate would be viable.

If I am going to use a leather/HP or leather/LC combo I was thinking to move my stats up in this order, Cha +5, Ref +2, Agil +3, Sta +2, Cha +2, Int +1, Wis +1, Disc +1.

You would still recommend focusing on reflex first? I take a hit to reflex :(

The original reason I had trained the strength up is because in the past 31 was the point at which I got all optimal RT. Now I believe that has changed but it is still helpful.

I guess the problem stems from my indecision in many ways. While I do not mind being a hiding stalking and dancing barbarian, I also dont mind being berserking tank either! I think either choice could be fun.

>>Bone and cloth I don't even bother with.<<

Are they terrible armors? How does bone compare to leather? I think bone was probably originally set to release with the necromancers and is just a relic from that.

>>What stance set up do you use? I currently am using 100% evasion 82% parry. Obviously if I am backtraining my shield I will focus more on it but once I am even what stance would you recommend?

I alternate.

When I want to train shield at melee with some critters but also fight off the incoming/advancing critters, I go with 100% evasion and 8x% shield.

When I only have one or two critters on me at melee and I want to train shield, I go with 100% shield and 8x% evasion.

When I'm sitting with 3 or 4 critters and want to dance, I go with 100% shield, 100% evasion and around 30% attack.

When I want to train parry, I just do the exact same as the above but substitute shield for parry.

I never split my stances into all three defenses. I switch from evasion and shield to evasion and parry, like that.

I always, always train + lock shield before parry. If both are close to pulsing and neither are locked, I go for shield first.

Also, there's nothing preventing you from being excellent at stealths and dancing while being a berserking tank at the same time. You can still train discipline strongly and be a berserking machine, as long as discipline isn't significantly higher than your strength and stamina.

It's more of a situational thing than anything. Sometimes it's better to dance, other times it's better to berserk.

Vinjince

---

"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi

>>To me this seems to eliminate the need for me to build up my shield skill. While I understand that shields are often a situational necessity (ranged weapons) I really want to avoid grinding them for something that will be situational or that is simply for the sake of TDPs.

This "situational necessity" can be very important. Evasion is often the most penalized defense. If you want to be any good at defending ranged attacks during invasions or normal hunting (from critters which seem to have more and more ranged attacks these days) then shield will greatly help you. WMs specialize in TM, and with the destructive power they have you'll definitely want to pack a shield.

>>Also I would like to avoid switching my stances too much between combats, so is there a stance for using all 3 techniques in combat or is it stretching it too thin?

You do know that you can switch your stances by entering in one command, right? A simple "stance shiel" or "stance att" will do the trick if you set it beforehand. I personally use scripts. (.ran) will put me in a certain stance. (.shi) will do the same, etc...

The higher you get, the more difficult it'll be try to use all three techniques until you simply won't be able to without getting killed every time. So yes, that'll stretch it a bit too thinly. It's better to just alternate, trust me.

>>however since my STR/STA is already so overbuilt compared to my other stats I was wondering if plate armor was a viable option for my character and I would simply focus on berserks and not as much on dancing.

You're far from overbuilt. There'll come a point in time when you'll need more strength and stamina. Regardless...

No. You're setting yourself up to get mangled every single time if you want to go with plate without shield. Just take it as my word to not neglect shield and hurt evasion by using plate armor or you'll be horrible at defending anything.

I backtrained shield from 30 when I was already hunting leucros. My other skills were in the mid to upper 100's. You'll get used to it. If you absolutely must refrain from training shield (not recommended, and the stronger you get the more you'll come to see this) then please only use light armor or you'll kill your evasion by using plate armor.

>>Basically it will cost me a lot to become a viable dancer/roar barb +10 CHA at least, whereas I seem to be almost setup to tank and berserk. HP or no??

Berserking works well with roaring too. Trust me, though... my absolute lowest stat is discipline (which helps dancing) and my absolute highest stat is charisma (which helps roaring). You'll find a lot of uses for dances and wish you'd utilize them better by having more discipline. If my character didn't have a penalty to discipline (Prydaen) then it would definitely not be my lowest stat. My advice on HP is no.

Hope that helps some. At lower levels berserks seem to outperform dances. I know this. But as you get higher you'll start to see just how powerful dances can be. Even if you want to favor berserking. don't completely imbalance yourself and make it harder for you straighten yourself out later on. ;)

Taking a look at your stats...

I say get everything to 20, no matter what penalties and bonuses you have.

Vinjince

---

"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi

I don't use shield as a main defense but I'm always training it, it seems to help tremendously against magic and some critter missile attacks. I keep my Evasion at 100%, my parry at 80% and throw my extra few "every 10 circles" % into shield and it always mindlocks when I'm dancing with critters training defenses so I can train it with an arm worn shield with basicly no noticeable decline in overall defensive ability. This way I can always train shield and then should the need arise that I feel I need to legitamately use shield I can still just switch full on into a shield stance and possibly have enough ranks to use it as a viable defense.

It is not even about PvP. The battle last night at the barricade where the DP are.... if you even want to have a shot at staying alive for more than 5 seconds you NEED to train shield. Period. End of discussion. If you blow off this advice or think I'm just being pushy and arrogant, fine whatever, suit yourself. When you're 60th and getting destroyed by things folks in their 50s are surviving you wont have to wonder why,

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

Some other things I'd like to add...

1. I don't think charisma has any noticeable effect on our dances.

2. While earlier on berserks may be where it is at... down the line I HIGHLY suggest you train for dances. Here's the reason why. At 80th circle you can berserk OUT of a dance. At no point can you dance OUT of a berserk.

Unless you have some sharkteeth to end your dance early forget about it. I view berserks as my fall back. I go into battle prepared with a dance (usually badger) and then if they overcome my defenses I'll berserk out and into stone or whatever I'm feeling.

3. I know you said you're avoiding ranged critters... I did too. Actually the only ranged critter I've ever fought was a fendryad which would occasionally shoot thorns at you. That was it.

At some point, whether you like it or not you'll partake in PvP. Unless you decide to hole up somewhere in a non-combat room, I'm willing to bet someone is going to piss you off eventually or you'll piss them off enough to attack. Now since 99.95% of PvP is done at ranged, doesn't it make sense to train shield?

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

>>Oh, I did not realise that I could not end my dance prematurely with dance stop.

You can. Re-read what I said. You cannot stop a BERSERK or break out of a berserk and into a dance (except for using those rare sharkteeth). :P

>>So essentially you use a dance to conserve inner fire as much as possible and then if you get into trouble you stack berserks to survive?

This is what I tend to do at least as far as hunting and invasions go. Berserks do have their place as a primary tool however. I use berserk flame as my "absolutely-positively-have-to-kill-in-under-40-seconds" move. This berserk just destroys, especially in the pit.

>>Do later berserks and dances eat up a lot more inner fire?

Yes. Even more so if you want to stack berserks.

>>However shield alone will not help me win a PvP where the opponent is constantly trying to avoid me. I would also need to work on a ranged weapon myself.. which means more back training.

Not necessarily. The reason why I advoacate shield so heavily and not the tired mantra of "train a bow!" is because you can be effective as a barbarian using a melee weapon and a shield.

The problem lies in that parry will do absolutely nothing, zero, squat to save you from a ranged attack. Right now, when I fight rangers or thieves that I know I cannot see, my goto setup is my shield and my well balanced sabre. I have the tools (read: berserks, roars, whirlwind, etc) to deal with their stealth.

>>What ranged weapon would you suggest? I know we get a bonus for the bow but, I wouldnt mind throwing a javelin or something even if it is partially just to be a bit different. Would this be viable for PvP.

As far as a suggestion goes, it all depends on what you enjoy. I won't lie to you though. Sling and staff sling are horrid and painfully weak. HT/LT are a slight step up. I actually train both HT and LT myself in conjunction with shield. I do this because I want to be a spartan with a shield :P

That being said, I also train longbow (my 4th weapon currently) and I find that it has some insane killing power. Should you go back and train a bow? Meh, maybe HX is more your flavor. That has nearly the power of bow AND can be used with a shield.

>>Can we berserk against a player now? I know previously it was very aggravating that we could not but mages could cast spells at us..

Yes, and there is a crucial difference in how you start a berserk. If you face or engage a player/creature and then berserk it will last much longer than a passive (non engaged in combat) berserk.

The old fashion berserk was a pain in that you had to find a creature to start it. This changed when the roar Kaith'Andru came about. Now that roars and berserks have been re-written neither are an issue.

>>It seems like I am never going to level again ;) I need to raise my multi, hide, stalk, brawl, HP, and perhaps now a ranged weapon!

Don't worry, you'll level and be much more powerful in the process. If you train efficiently and keep hiding/stalking as some of your top survivals then you really shouldn't have to leave combat to circle.

Right now, I've got my lores done til 150th (approx 300 appraisal and 150 teaching) and I've got all my survivals cleared til 100th at which point I need first aid. First aid fell from my number 4 to my 8th survival due to the fact that it can not be trained in combat.

Once you get over this hump and backtrain a tiny bit (remember, sub 100 rank skills have gotten a lot easier and train a lot faster than before) then you should be good for the long haul.

Hope all this helps.

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

>>I dont feel that way, if I did I wouldnt continue to bombard you with question after question. I am simply attempting to understand the what and whys of the basically brand new to me barbarian guild and what I have to do to bring my relic up to speed.

I realize what I said came off a bit hard originally. I was getting the impression from the previous posts you were looking for advice but pretty much set on HP for your armor.

Again, it is all about what you want for YOUR character. We're just trying to give some advice to make things a bit easier or to make your character less prone to pitfalls or bad situations.

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

As a barbarian you can wear any medium or small shield on the arm simply by typing ADJUST <shield>. Medium arm worn shield offer the best arm worn protection a barb can get but they increase load times on bows, but with a small shield and I think 50 ranks of shield you can load any bow at exactly the same load time you would with empty hands. As far as heavy crossbows go, only a arbalest can be loaded holding a standard shield, but as I said before if you wear an arm worn shield you can load any bow, including all HXs. There are several load time reductions for trainers of HX but they are based on strength and also skill, I don't have them off the top of my head but I think they scale up starting at 200 ranks and 30 strength for the first 1 second RT reduction.

Magdar here. I have been reading your thread. Ask away. I am usally on early in the AM.


______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss

<<Is it safe to say that you can hide, stalk, and evade at your level of competency in HP?

I'm just going to comment on this one thing. Your maneuvering hindrance and stealth hindrance are not the same thing. You can't tell by appraisal how much an armor will hinder you from stealth directly. A couple rules of thumb that I have been told and seem to hold are:

1) The heavier type of armor the more it will hinder stealth. Stealth hindrance: HP>LP>HC>LC>Leather in general.

2) The manuevering hindrance will give you an index of stealth hindrance when comparing to other armors of the same type (LC vs. LC, HP vs. HP, not LC vs. HC).

This isn't to say that you can't be effective with stealth with the heavier armors. My ranger, for example, uses LC with HC gloves and helm, and is able to hide just fine without spells. Of course he has ranger bonus and over 5 ranks of hiding per circle. He could hide in chain with less than that, but needs that to pull of snipe at level.

<<See I learn so much here! Well then it starts to seem like I will have to switch the gauntlets and gorget for chain, Is there something chain that protects only the neck? Whats the best thing for me to grab for them?

That doesn't necessarily mean you have to switch. Only using two small items of HP might not increase your stealth hindrance that much. I can't say for sure because I don't know. I can say for sure that switching from full leather with about 130 ranks to chain with basically 0 ranks affected my hiding alot. As I've worked down some of the hindrance I'm more or less back to where I was. Does it negatively affect my stealth? Definitely, but I've never done any tests as to how much.

Actually I tested it out today and even just wearing the gauntlets and gorget with 65 HP 120 Leather it effects my ability to stalk (35 stalking.) Using LC gloves and aventail with only 30 LC seems to actually be better. So I think I am switching :)

I went leather/hp for the elimination of the hand and head stuns. I have been around since before tanning so the tanned helms and gauntlets that are made now were nonexistent. The HP gauntlets and helm make it tough to learn hiding. I tend to just switch to all leather or LC. I work LC and HC for the tdp's. Frankly I carry an ogre buckler for training parry. Insane hind. Go with 100% evasion (for hit reduction) and max out parry. Shileld is just to work parry in this case. Well I used to.

LP is not nearly as proctetive and my helm and gauntlets are kertig and glaes respectively. And whith apps like these, I will deal with the hind.

You tap a kertig great helm fashioned with the scarred face of a grinning Dwarven warrior that you are wearing.
s>
A puckered scar of red gold runs from the ventilated patch covering the right eye of the warrior and disappears into the braided platinum wire of his full beard. A single crystal dragon tear, set as the pommel of a greatsword pierces the remains of the right ear, while the left is unseen in the curly platinum wire of the warrior's hair.
s>
The great helm is heavy plate.
The helm looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
head
neck
right eye
left eye
You feel certain that a kertig great helm fashioned with the scarred face of a grinning Dwarven warrior appears to impose light maneuvering hindrance and offers:
great protection and great damage absorption for puncture attacks.
extreme protection and great damage absorption for slice attacks.
good protection and great damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
poor protection and good damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only maneuvering in a kertig great helm fashioned with the scarred face of a grinning Dwarven warrior you would be unhindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently lightly hindered.
You are certain that the great helm is incredibly hard, and is in pristine condition.
The great helm is made with metal.
You are certain that the great helm weighs exactly 152 stones.
You are certain that the great helm is worth exactly 500 lirums.

You tap some brass trimmed gauntlets of articulated glaes steel wickedly spiked at each knuckle that you are wearing.
s>
Close inspection shows the masterful craftsmanship that allows for a full range of motion to each finger while providing total protection. Finely tanned celpeze hide has been stuffed with compacted spidersilk, padding the metal's interior to provide comfort. Each barbed knuckle's point gleams with a sheen of glaes. Riveted inside their cuff is a shield-shaped platinum plaque depicting a soaring eagle with a banner gripped in its talons. Diminutive lettering across the banner reads, "Mordril Anar."
s>
The trimmed gauntlets are heavy plate.
The gauntlets look like they offer protection for the following areas:
right hand
left hand
You feel certain that some brass trimmed gauntlets of articulated glaes steel wickedly spiked at each knuckle appear to impose light maneuvering hindrance and offers:
high protection and great damage absorption for puncture attacks.
great protection and great damage absorption for slice attacks.
good protection and great damage absorption for impact attacks.
high protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
poor protection and good damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only maneuvering in some brass trimmed gauntlets of articulated glaes steel wickedly spiked at each knuckle you would be unhindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently lightly hindered.
You are certain that the trimmed gauntlets are moderately strong, and are in pristine condition.
The trimmed gauntlets are made with metal.
You are certain that the trimmed gauntlets weighs exactly 51 stones.
You are certain that the trimmed gauntlets are worth exactly 150 lirums.

I like hunting in my pretties!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Legendary Barbarian of M'Riss

OK, since I have recently rejoined after years of being gone, I have started retraining other armor types on the suggestions of these boards and others, plus shield. I have gotten LC and shield within 12 ranks of my leather, HC is creeping up there. Now recently in Plat, I got a roar faceplate, which is HP, so I am slowing working that up.

My major question is should I only train 2 armors at a time?

Right now, I have a mix of HP,LC,HC and leather. Can't hide at all, but plan on backtrainng that when I backtrain some some weapon skills, so not too worried about that.

If you are just training, and not fighting at your top you can train more than two armors. If you are trying hard to stay alive then keep to the minimal hindrance groupings.

mfberg