We were told point blank we weren't going to lose effectiveness.

The defining difference is that magic has a set of skills to be split from. Barb magic use does not. It's apples and oranges.

And as someone else said, power might be what you're used to but duration will not.

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Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.

>>Dance 'power' is already in line with global caps. Power is not being nerfed.

Hmm.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
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>>old and pointless... old posts about dances and global caps.

Yeah, which is why I just said "Hmm." I really can't argue for or against it TBH.

Pretty sure no ability will be as powerful as Dragon Dance presently is now though, FWIW.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

<<Pretty sure no ability will be as powerful as Dragon Dance presently is now though, FWIW.

Taken alone, no. Dragon is roughly the sort of bonus a fully buffed character might be able to expect, though.

That's sort of the crux of the issue. Right now Barbarians have one choice. 3.0 will give them more like 900.

>>Dances will have a start-up time, however, which I consider to be a significant nerf of "power" for PvP purposes.

But, in fairness, that just puts it in-line with all other magical buffs.

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"hypocrite, thy name is teveshszat, and i just hope i'm there to see you when you're broght down." - GERSTEINJ2

Chatter[Gonifa] whatever, scripto-gnome.

<<Yep, no argument there, except it would be nice if we could "snap cast" dances for less effectiveness.

Isn't snap-casting going to be feat-based in Magic 3.0?

No reason Barbarians couldn't get an equivalent feat (tree).

>>Rubbing 10 cjs

This should be nerfed if it hasn't already been said it will be, and whoever does it is a crazy-twink.

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

>>Working as intended last time it was brought up, if I'm remembering correctly. CJs are meant to be stackable that way.

Still needs to be nerfed. I'd say one CJ at a time, two max.

I take it they're different skill CJs, not all 10 are the same skill?

If it's the former and not the latter, I see nothing wrong with it. It's not like we're going to tell people that they can't all cast buffs on each other and stack things up that way.

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"hypocrite, thy name is teveshszat, and i just hope i'm there to see you when you're broght down." - GERSTEINJ2

Chatter[Gonifa] whatever, scripto-gnome.

>I know using 10 CJs isn't all that practical, but the point remains. It's funny since I guarantee every single time I've used Dragon I never needed like half of what it boosts for that situation anyway.

I would hazard a guess and say it's the combination of 10 seperate items, all of which have a creation process with skill checks, and a specific number of uses, along with a definite time of use.

Whereas dragon is a single command of instant boost to a ton of stuff with a non-finite use limit or duration.

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Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.

>I'm sorry but CJs are OP, and are one of the main reasons GMs will place a cap on stacking boosts. Arguing for them isn't reasonable at this point.

I'm not, really. I'm playing devils advocate, while mostly agreeing with you about it. I actually think the two systems aren't really directly comparable, but don't really have much else to do right now, so thought I'd try.

The fact remains, dragon is a single command instant boost to a ton of stuff, CJs at least have windup time (a second or two per activation), require material components, stars, sigil, a creation process, a material component to be kept on the person to activate, and can't be activated in near perpetuity; the material component will run out. They're also going to typically require a second person (a MM) though that's certainly not 100%.

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Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.

>Otherwise, there's no point.

Meh, there's not. We're just circling the same conversation anyway, I'll stop.

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Let's save us all some time: I'm a troll who rarely has anything helpful. There.

>Yes, CJs have a material component and time cost. I don't think anyone would argue that they shouldn't offer some value for use. But anything over a ~90 rank boost for 3 different skills would be right out, IMHO. Stacking ten is not very convenient, but with a basic script it's essentially the same as the current Dragon Dance model, with slightly more activation roundtime and none of the usage limitations.

Would a chance of something going catastrophically bad that increases as the number of CJs active do mitigate this for anyone? Say a chance of the next CJ turning into a curse with the chance being lowered by the skill of the creator and some appropriate skill of the user being on the low end of failure and the high end turning all currently active CJs into brief but powerful curses on the high end?

I don't know if it would make sense lore wise and I hesitate to suggest a penalty like this for something that (working alone) can take up to a quarter year to get all the sigils for the skills you're looking for. But I do agree (in part) that this sort of extreme boosting should probably made a little harder to do.

>Would a chance of something going catastrophically bad that increases as the number of CJs active do mitigate this for anyone?

Or we could wait and see what the skill boosting enchantments look like in Enchanting 3.0 (if they exist at all, as I think it's been said they may not). CJs, at least in their current incarnation, are going away soon-ish, so why waste dev time nerfing them now?

Elemental Lord Opieus, Master Warrior Mage of Elanthia
"For a bunch of radical empiricists, the Philosophers' system relies on a whole lot of faith." ~Armifer

Difference being that dances and roars are pretty much the only abilities barbs get, with the 'no-magic' rule being the tradeoff(ouch!)

Paladins for example, have tons of spells that can all be active at once like HOW(+65 stance points), TR(+disc/MO), HES(+strength), CRC(+MO) Antistun(Really?), RUE(+weapon stats), SP(+MR), RW(+weapon skill), DA(+armor stats), Clarity(point effect on any hostile stealth action with good perception), DG(+int) n Courage(+stam). Glyph of light(+perception) plus the ability to use anything that comes in the form of Arcana. Plenty of abilities right there. So we've got +str/stam/int/disc +offense/defense +weapon/armor stats ++perception +MR +MO

Wait, how are you appalled at the strength of your abilities at 25th? You have 4 dances at this point, none of the 'total package' combat dances, and I'd wager that with your stats at that circle, you're probably at the very bottom tier of bonuses. Combined this with the fact that your BMR is pretty much nonexistent at this point and I'd say you have almost no idea what you're talking about. You're lacking any real criteria to assess the extent of barbarian abilities. It'd be like me claiming I have any idea what Clerics are all about with mine being circle 30th, and yet missing 90% of their most powerful abilities. If you'd care to elaborate further on these 'gamebreaking abilities' that are available to a 25th circle, I'd be eager to hear what I missed out on.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

AFAIK, barbs get to stack dances/forms/zerks in 3.0, so I wouldn't bother making this kind of argument.

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"hypocrite, thy name is teveshszat, and i just hope i'm there to see you when you're broght down." - GERSTEINJ2

Chatter[Gonifa] whatever, scripto-gnome.

<<AFAIK, barbs get to stack dances/forms/zerks in 3.0, so I wouldn't bother making this kind of argument.

When the number of spells you can have up at one time is capped, please come back and share your wisdom with us.

:(

~Leilond
http://tinyurl.com/Leilond-Portrait
http://drzeal.forumotion.com Learn How to PvP!

I'm gonna poach you too, Leilond. Just because.