THESAVAGE
Future
07/06/2018 12:22 PM CDT
So now that we have had some acknowledgement on the current state of things barbarianly, recognizing our shortcomings and noting some of the things simply never released, maybe a step in the right direction. I know there are no plans as per HOW to fix us, but you have an awful large number of barbarians in the game in a woefully underdone/undone state. Can we find out where in the grand timeline we fit in, at least. Maybe find out what kind of priority fixing this hole is?
BADGOPHER
Re: Future
07/06/2018 05:26 PM CDT
I'm not a GM, obviously. I suspect the answer can't really be given, for two reasons.
1) If Kodius came back tomorrow, that would mess up priorities according to what needs to be done and what he wants to do, which they can't really guess at.
2) They have new GM training I think, which might include someone who wants to tackle Barbarians. Or might not!
Generally the GMs are unwilling to give priority because people fire back with 'WHAT BARBARIANS ARE LOWER PRIORITY THAN X? NO ONE USES X! I AM CANCELLING!' and because they have such fluid work schedules.
Note that it literally never matters what X is, people will be mad if it's a 2 second thing, or literally the game is on fire thing.
1) If Kodius came back tomorrow, that would mess up priorities according to what needs to be done and what he wants to do, which they can't really guess at.
2) They have new GM training I think, which might include someone who wants to tackle Barbarians. Or might not!
Generally the GMs are unwilling to give priority because people fire back with 'WHAT BARBARIANS ARE LOWER PRIORITY THAN X? NO ONE USES X! I AM CANCELLING!' and because they have such fluid work schedules.
Note that it literally never matters what X is, people will be mad if it's a 2 second thing, or literally the game is on fire thing.
THESAVAGE
Re: Future
07/06/2018 07:43 PM CDT
They have given out plans of attack, the order in which they prioritize projects, plenty of times in the past. The majority of us have been waiting the entirety of 3.0 to be finished/fixed, I think we handle not being a priority well enough. That said, it's nice to know that we're actually part of a plan, because simply an acknowledged issue doesn't take us any closer to resolution. Instead of throwing out reasons why they won't, or can't, lets let them speak up for themselves. TBH, barbs deserve to hear something.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Future
07/06/2018 10:35 PM CDT
Things I think need immediate or high-priority addressing, regardless of Kodius' status:
1) Dervish and Juggernaut masteries don't do anything but are learnable. I understand the intention was to develop them quickly, but that was several years ago. I have used the BUG verb to report them multiple times, and after seeking GM assistance, ended up having to spend my own monthly reset and plats to fix a game bug. I don't think this would be a time-intensive fix (but who knows)? Just turn them off for now.
2) Warpaint and roar helms updated for 3.0. I don't consider this mandatory fix-now, but it would be nice to have that functionality back. A bunch of magic items were manually updated as a courtesy after the 3.0 conversion. A few magic items were updated when Traders became MUs. Please fix these.
Aside from these things, I'm patient. I am passionate about Barb development and passionate about the idea of some philosophical changes (like giving NMUs some equivalent to Sorcery), but objectively I think there are several more pressing issues.
Off the top of my head, my personal list would have been something like this:
I don't know if the GM list follows my list closely, but it seems to so far. Traders got theirs, Thieves got theirs. I have 2-3 more guilds ahead of us in the "need" category, and two of those have already seen some development. My personal guess is Barb development probably isn't this year, but it might be closer than a pessimist would think.
1) Dervish and Juggernaut masteries don't do anything but are learnable. I understand the intention was to develop them quickly, but that was several years ago. I have used the BUG verb to report them multiple times, and after seeking GM assistance, ended up having to spend my own monthly reset and plats to fix a game bug. I don't think this would be a time-intensive fix (but who knows)? Just turn them off for now.
2) Warpaint and roar helms updated for 3.0. I don't consider this mandatory fix-now, but it would be nice to have that functionality back. A bunch of magic items were manually updated as a courtesy after the 3.0 conversion. A few magic items were updated when Traders became MUs. Please fix these.
Aside from these things, I'm patient. I am passionate about Barb development and passionate about the idea of some philosophical changes (like giving NMUs some equivalent to Sorcery), but objectively I think there are several more pressing issues.
Off the top of my head, my personal list would have been something like this:
| Priority | Description | Status | Reason |
| 1 | Release Trader Magic | Completed | Traders were a joke guild, and this had been promised for several years. Completed. |
| 2 | New Thief Khris | Completed | Thieves had the fewest guild abilities in the game, and they desperately needed more functionality. Completed. |
| 3 | Paladin Development | Pending/Semi-Completed | SMITE is a simple release that helps a lot, but I think glyphs need more development before we mark this done. |
| 4 | Ranger Development | Pending/Semi-Completed | They moved some stuff around, but I still think they need a lot more. Scouting needs work, beseeches need a complete rewrite, companions need work. |
| 5 | Bard Development | ?? | They could really use a couple more screams so Bardic Lore isn't a joke. Add a couple more normal buffs and TM spells to the list and I'd be good. |
| 6 | Barbarian Development | ?? | New abilities, particularly War Stomp and some sort of riposte. Totems. Restructure masteries so they're not so late/costly. |
| 7 | Moon Mage Development | ?? | 3.0 and diminishing disablers really hurt MMs, and they're kind of a joke compared to Clerics and WMs now, Moongate aside. Rework their barriers and disablers. |
I don't know if the GM list follows my list closely, but it seems to so far. Traders got theirs, Thieves got theirs. I have 2-3 more guilds ahead of us in the "need" category, and two of those have already seen some development. My personal guess is Barb development probably isn't this year, but it might be closer than a pessimist would think.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Future
07/06/2018 10:44 PM CDT
Oh, also, a complicating factor is that we've had one of the best GMs in history become our unofficial champion, but Kodius is currently on hiatus because he had a kid and family/health issues.
When powerhouse GMs go on hiatus, all their projects are up in the air, for understandable reasons. Sometimes they come back swinging, sometimes they take a while to emotionally admit that they're done. Dartenian, Zaeyurn, Ssra all come to immediate mind. Kodius' status could move Barb development way up or way down on that list. His intimate knowledge of Barb systems makes it difficult to just tell another GM to step in and finish what he's got hanging around, and I'm reluctant to say he's gone.
When powerhouse GMs go on hiatus, all their projects are up in the air, for understandable reasons. Sometimes they come back swinging, sometimes they take a while to emotionally admit that they're done. Dartenian, Zaeyurn, Ssra all come to immediate mind. Kodius' status could move Barb development way up or way down on that list. His intimate knowledge of Barb systems makes it difficult to just tell another GM to step in and finish what he's got hanging around, and I'm reluctant to say he's gone.
THESAVAGE
Re: Future
07/07/2018 06:12 PM CDT
Our guild is half released, broken, and far out of the DPS metric of ANY other guild (including thieves). I definitely feel it should be a higher priority than bard development, who have a robust spellbook and are not lacking any way in 'measuring up'.
And on Kodius- I mean, I like to feel like a good person and have sympathy, but let's get real for a moment. Since 3.0 released, barb guild wise, he's been phoning it in. He refused to even acknowledge a lot of these problems needed to be fixed, at all. If it wasn't for Armifer and Raesh (I think) stepping in at the time, all our roars would likely still be one stat contest (and the SvS bug via spellcasting un-found). There is a decent community of barbarians who are trying to get a job done missing half the tools. All in all, looks pretty bleak. At least let us know where we stand in the priority list, GMs, if you don't have plans yet on how to fix this.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Future
07/07/2018 06:54 PM CDT
>Our guild is half released
We have two out of 40+ abilities not currently released, how exactly is that "half-released?"
>>broken
Mage's Lament and maybe Slash. That doesn't mean the whole guild is broken bro.
>and far out of the DPS metric of ANY other guild (including thieves)
This just makes me angry. Do you have any clue how frustrating Thief PvP was before the new khri? Thief DPS is Backstab, and good luck if you can't hide. Even then, that shield tert, WATCH, and AOE pulling from hiding without substantial rewards gave you glaring weaknesses to certain guilds.
Barbs have among the best wards, among the best disablers, among the best combat buffs, and the best combat skillset in the game (except maybe well-trained Rangers). I'd like to see stuff like NMU sorcery and more damage streams, but these are high-level philosophical wishes, not glaring oversights that need to be remedied.
>Since 3.0 released, barb guild wise, he's been phoning it in.
Saying "Kodius has really phoned it in since 3.0 released" is like saying George Washington really phoned it in after his two terms of president, man. He was the core figure in completely rewriting the guild. Silly man, just silly.
We have two out of 40+ abilities not currently released, how exactly is that "half-released?"
>>broken
Mage's Lament and maybe Slash. That doesn't mean the whole guild is broken bro.
>and far out of the DPS metric of ANY other guild (including thieves)
This just makes me angry. Do you have any clue how frustrating Thief PvP was before the new khri? Thief DPS is Backstab, and good luck if you can't hide. Even then, that shield tert, WATCH, and AOE pulling from hiding without substantial rewards gave you glaring weaknesses to certain guilds.
Barbs have among the best wards, among the best disablers, among the best combat buffs, and the best combat skillset in the game (except maybe well-trained Rangers). I'd like to see stuff like NMU sorcery and more damage streams, but these are high-level philosophical wishes, not glaring oversights that need to be remedied.
>Since 3.0 released, barb guild wise, he's been phoning it in.
Saying "Kodius has really phoned it in since 3.0 released" is like saying George Washington really phoned it in after his two terms of president, man. He was the core figure in completely rewriting the guild. Silly man, just silly.
DR-HELJE
Re: Future ::NUDGE::
07/07/2018 06:59 PM CDT
Please don't fall into GvG. Everyone would like to see their guild(s) see more development, but fighting over who should see that first leads no where.
Helje
DragonRealms Senior Board Moderator
Helje
DragonRealms Senior Board Moderator
THESAVAGE
Re: Future
07/07/2018 07:35 PM CDT
>>This just makes me angry. Do you have any clue how frustrating Thief PvP was before the new khri?
Sure do, I actually play more than one guild, in fact have taken almost all of them well past 100th circle.
>>Thief DPS is Backstab, and good luck if you can't hide.
Or you know, just use silence, which pulses you invisible with no skill check, able to backstab even when you're stunned, immobilized, webbed, or (laughably) unconscious.
>>Even then, that shield tert,
Has nothing to do with anything
>>WATCH,
Still have to search and also spend roundtime pointing for most actions vs invisible. To be fair, though, I do think that stealth needs to be re-balanced as a whole, and watch needs to go away. That conversation is for another time and place, and I will gladly tell you my opinion on how it could be done in a proper venue.
You clearly show your bias, but generally soapboxing your Thief bias in a barb forum seems... ill placed.
>>Barbs have among the best wards,
Lay ward + Essence of Yew measure up easily with comparable ranks, and they're also tert. Best magic wards belong to clerics and war mages, though. Hands down.
>>among the best disablers,
This just leads me to believe you don't play a barb, or maybe you don't play a magic prime? Very far off the mark.
>>and the best combat skillset in the game
The one thing you have said I can actually agree with, including the Ranger caveat.
>>Saying "Kodius has really phoned it in since 3.0 released" is like saying George Washington really phoned it in after his two terms of president, man. He was the core figure in completely rewriting the guild. Silly man, just silly.
Our roars being fixed took the intervention of other GMs into the conversation to make them even viable, they were all on one very simple to avoid contest. The pathway bonuses that were supposed to be our BALANCING FEATURE never released. Warpaint and roar helms don't do anything. Stomp is non-existent. Dervish and Juggernaut do nothing. The damage stream we were supposed to get to balance us DPS wise (earthquake) has never come to light.
Thieves were absolutely in a similar place before this new dev, and I do not begrudge them the work they got, they needed it. I'm not here crying 'Why them, we needed it more!?!'. I'm simply pointing out that at this point we are the child left behind, and trying to get some kind of indication on when we might be getting some much needed attention. This thread definitely skewed off point, but I'd really like to hear something from the staff on where we fall in the priority list, and I know I'm not the only one hoping for some kind of insight.
Sure do, I actually play more than one guild, in fact have taken almost all of them well past 100th circle.
>>Thief DPS is Backstab, and good luck if you can't hide.
Or you know, just use silence, which pulses you invisible with no skill check, able to backstab even when you're stunned, immobilized, webbed, or (laughably) unconscious.
>>Even then, that shield tert,
Has nothing to do with anything
>>WATCH,
Still have to search and also spend roundtime pointing for most actions vs invisible. To be fair, though, I do think that stealth needs to be re-balanced as a whole, and watch needs to go away. That conversation is for another time and place, and I will gladly tell you my opinion on how it could be done in a proper venue.
You clearly show your bias, but generally soapboxing your Thief bias in a barb forum seems... ill placed.
>>Barbs have among the best wards,
Lay ward + Essence of Yew measure up easily with comparable ranks, and they're also tert. Best magic wards belong to clerics and war mages, though. Hands down.
>>among the best disablers,
This just leads me to believe you don't play a barb, or maybe you don't play a magic prime? Very far off the mark.
>>and the best combat skillset in the game
The one thing you have said I can actually agree with, including the Ranger caveat.
>>Saying "Kodius has really phoned it in since 3.0 released" is like saying George Washington really phoned it in after his two terms of president, man. He was the core figure in completely rewriting the guild. Silly man, just silly.
Our roars being fixed took the intervention of other GMs into the conversation to make them even viable, they were all on one very simple to avoid contest. The pathway bonuses that were supposed to be our BALANCING FEATURE never released. Warpaint and roar helms don't do anything. Stomp is non-existent. Dervish and Juggernaut do nothing. The damage stream we were supposed to get to balance us DPS wise (earthquake) has never come to light.
Thieves were absolutely in a similar place before this new dev, and I do not begrudge them the work they got, they needed it. I'm not here crying 'Why them, we needed it more!?!'. I'm simply pointing out that at this point we are the child left behind, and trying to get some kind of indication on when we might be getting some much needed attention. This thread definitely skewed off point, but I'd really like to hear something from the staff on where we fall in the priority list, and I know I'm not the only one hoping for some kind of insight.
DR-IOCANTHE
Re: Future
07/07/2018 07:38 PM CDT
Kodius is not gone, but RL has been eating up enough of his time and energy that he's sort of on "critical fix duty" and only doing other things when he can.
Every guild has some things that could use attention. Armifer mentioned that the dev folks are doing "triage" to determine which guilds (and other things) need the most attention while we're still working with very limited staff. Your list of anticipated guild development probably wasn't in front of anyone's eyes while they made decisions - but because you've taken a good and in-depth look at the state of guilds, you've been able to see that there were guilds in dire need of attention
We're training a class of folks now, some of whom are going to be way more serious coders than I will ever be. As you've mentioned, major guild development is not a thing to say "Here's your GSL access, go fix a guild." We are working on getting the right people into the right places, though, and we do appreciate your patience and understanding.
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
Every guild has some things that could use attention. Armifer mentioned that the dev folks are doing "triage" to determine which guilds (and other things) need the most attention while we're still working with very limited staff. Your list of anticipated guild development probably wasn't in front of anyone's eyes while they made decisions - but because you've taken a good and in-depth look at the state of guilds, you've been able to see that there were guilds in dire need of attention
We're training a class of folks now, some of whom are going to be way more serious coders than I will ever be. As you've mentioned, major guild development is not a thing to say "Here's your GSL access, go fix a guild." We are working on getting the right people into the right places, though, and we do appreciate your patience and understanding.
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
FUTILITY
Re: Future
07/07/2018 10:21 PM CDT
We're the only guild that has basic functionality locked behind 4 slot abilities, aren't we? (Only guild with 4 slot abilities, too.) That seems like a pretty serious issue to address in the grand scheme of things.
It always perplexed me that Barbarians pay 4 slots for things MUs pay 1 slot for, but there were reasonable explanations given for why it was taking so long for the Barb 3.0 stuff to get updated and released. Were. Five years ago.
We get it, Kodius is a busy guy and things like enchanting are going to take priority. But we're still locked down with "Kodius is your GM" when that obviously hasn't been true for a long time.
Things that clearly ought to be Weapons primary perks get rolled out to multiple guilds "because everyone interacts with the combat system." Meanwhile magic primary perks sit pretty because, what, 1.5 guilds don't interact with the magic system?
Then another guild gets the Barbarian ask list (and hey why not some of those should-be-weapon-primary-perks because why not).
Do you understand why frustration is running really, really high?
It always perplexed me that Barbarians pay 4 slots for things MUs pay 1 slot for, but there were reasonable explanations given for why it was taking so long for the Barb 3.0 stuff to get updated and released. Were. Five years ago.
We get it, Kodius is a busy guy and things like enchanting are going to take priority. But we're still locked down with "Kodius is your GM" when that obviously hasn't been true for a long time.
Things that clearly ought to be Weapons primary perks get rolled out to multiple guilds "because everyone interacts with the combat system." Meanwhile magic primary perks sit pretty because, what, 1.5 guilds don't interact with the magic system?
Then another guild gets the Barbarian ask list (and hey why not some of those should-be-weapon-primary-perks because why not).
Do you understand why frustration is running really, really high?
ANARCHIE
Re: Future
07/07/2018 10:53 PM CDT
Calcified Hide (Necromancer)
Enrichment (Trader)
Spite of Dergati (Cleric)
All 4 slot spells, granted they're not 'basic functionality' whatever thats defined as, but I'd argue they're widely considered 'must-have' spells for each guild.
THESAVAGE
Re: Future
07/08/2018 12:00 AM CDT
The point here being that it took 3 different guilds to come up with 3 'must have' 4 slot abilities. Barbarians have, depending on perspective, 16-24 slots worth of things that bring baseline functionality to a reasonable level. (IF cost reduction on individual ability types, the ability to 'cast area' with a roar, IF pool regen to even be able to maintain the 4-5 forms, at CAP, that we can, and so on)
THESAVAGE
Re: Future
07/08/2018 12:12 AM CDT
And to be fair, it doesn't seem to matter much when we get a confirmation from GMs that we're lacking(in some opinions heavily), but just get the same five-years-running pat on the back with no remedy in sight. GMs have been crossing guild boundaries. The staff to have a GM oversee every guild's development exclusively doesn't exist right now, and even if the current class was huge, and all being trained on the coding aspect of the game, it would be a long time before any are likely ready to delve into this mess, or even allowed.
What is very interesting is that people are so carefully skirting around the whole "when" topic with their hands in the air, while acknowledging we're in a bad spot. It lends that there might be some more underlying issues as to why no-one will(or can?) work on Barbarians. So how about it? Do we get any actual info, or continue to wait blindly lodged in between 'boats' and 'moar treehouse pls'?
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Future
07/08/2018 12:14 AM CDT
>Lay ward + Essence of Yew measure up easily with comparable ranks, and they're also tert.
Turtle (unless it's been fixed) acts as both an integrity and a potency barrier, and even stacking something simple like Swan can require an additional 30+% mana as well as additional prep time, though a 1v1 comparison can be difficult because EoY is ablative whereas Turtle isn't. But then you're not mentioning the five other barriers that Barbs have, most of which can be stacked on top of Turtle. I don't seriously think you're arguing Ranger barriers are better? Nothing anyone has is like old SoD.
>Best magic wards belong to clerics and war mages, though. Hands down.
They have more powerful wards for specific circumstances, I wouldn't say "hands down." WM barriers are useless against Barbarians and Thieves for example, but yes against a Moon Mage AC is more effective than any single tool Barbs have (largely at the cost of the WM's own TM). Clerics have damage reduction in MiPP and Ghost Shroud but the "good stuff" is again limited to other MUs.
Barb wards follow a different philosophy. There's a lot of them, they're fairly powerful, they're straight-forward, and they're all stackable. They are not as conditionally powerful as some of the WM/Cleric wards, but outside Serenity they have no conditions, and are more universally applicable.
>This just leads me to believe you don't play a barb, or maybe you don't play a magic prime? Very far off the mark.
Who has better disablers? WMs probably (IP hax), Clerics probably (CS hax). Maybe Thieves now. That would still put us in the top third.
So we're looking at something like...
Skillset: 1-2
Wards: Somewhere between 1-3 overall, variable on matchup.
Disablers: Ehh, I'm calling it 4th. I would personally disagree, but it's fine if you wanna slot it down somewhere towards the middle.
What happened to us being "broken and half-released?" That's my point. Please stop being so dramatic, it detracts from constructive conversation about what we'd like for the guild's future.
>All 4 slot spells, granted they're not 'basic functionality' whatever thats defined as, but I'd argue they're widely considered 'must-have' spells for each guild.
I'm with Futility on this one. Barbarian masteries cost 4 slots each, and there are about 5 (maybe 6) I'd consider mandatory that drastically affect every-day usability of guild skills. Imagine having to spend 20 spells slots on magic feats, and it's amplified because we learn spell slots at a tertiary rate. Masteries are definitely something I think need revisiting at some point.
Turtle (unless it's been fixed) acts as both an integrity and a potency barrier, and even stacking something simple like Swan can require an additional 30+% mana as well as additional prep time, though a 1v1 comparison can be difficult because EoY is ablative whereas Turtle isn't. But then you're not mentioning the five other barriers that Barbs have, most of which can be stacked on top of Turtle. I don't seriously think you're arguing Ranger barriers are better? Nothing anyone has is like old SoD.
>Best magic wards belong to clerics and war mages, though. Hands down.
They have more powerful wards for specific circumstances, I wouldn't say "hands down." WM barriers are useless against Barbarians and Thieves for example, but yes against a Moon Mage AC is more effective than any single tool Barbs have (largely at the cost of the WM's own TM). Clerics have damage reduction in MiPP and Ghost Shroud but the "good stuff" is again limited to other MUs.
Barb wards follow a different philosophy. There's a lot of them, they're fairly powerful, they're straight-forward, and they're all stackable. They are not as conditionally powerful as some of the WM/Cleric wards, but outside Serenity they have no conditions, and are more universally applicable.
>This just leads me to believe you don't play a barb, or maybe you don't play a magic prime? Very far off the mark.
Who has better disablers? WMs probably (IP hax), Clerics probably (CS hax). Maybe Thieves now. That would still put us in the top third.
So we're looking at something like...
Skillset: 1-2
Wards: Somewhere between 1-3 overall, variable on matchup.
Disablers: Ehh, I'm calling it 4th. I would personally disagree, but it's fine if you wanna slot it down somewhere towards the middle.
What happened to us being "broken and half-released?" That's my point. Please stop being so dramatic, it detracts from constructive conversation about what we'd like for the guild's future.
>All 4 slot spells, granted they're not 'basic functionality' whatever thats defined as, but I'd argue they're widely considered 'must-have' spells for each guild.
I'm with Futility on this one. Barbarian masteries cost 4 slots each, and there are about 5 (maybe 6) I'd consider mandatory that drastically affect every-day usability of guild skills. Imagine having to spend 20 spells slots on magic feats, and it's amplified because we learn spell slots at a tertiary rate. Masteries are definitely something I think need revisiting at some point.
FUTILITY
Re: Future
07/08/2018 07:28 AM CDT
>>All 4 slot spells, granted they're not 'basic functionality' whatever thats defined as, but I'd argue they're widely considered 'must-have' spells for each guild.
Barbarians pay 4 slots for what is contained within the Magical Feats for MUs. Some of the masteries are clearly two feats put together, but none of them appears to be four feats at once. Which makes you wonder why they cost four slots. A quick look at 150+ Barbarians is going to show anyone who cares that they have 5-6 masteries, eating up 20-24 of the already limited slots.
>>But then you're not mentioning the five other barriers that Barbs have, most of which can be stacked on top of Turtle.
Arguing about current Warding abilities seems a bit silly considering there's an acknowledgement that they all need to be toned down and will, eventually, be toned down. Warding is supposed to be the thing Barbarians are very good at -- arguably best at, although there's a lot of skill set placement question marks there. For what it's worth, Clerics probably have the strongest Ward set thanks primarily to Lay Ward. Without Lay Ward the MU guilds would be noticeably worse at Warding by comparison to Barbarians.
Insofar as better Debilitation? Barbarians are alright. Middle of the pack. It largely has to do with the paucity of contests Barbarians can engage in compared to MUs, where the primary guilds tend to have access to all but one contest without talking about sorcery. Clerics and WMs are, as usual, up at the top of the list. In this case so are Moon Mages.
But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Barbarian features being five years overdue for release and that being a source of continuing frustration.
Barbarians pay 4 slots for what is contained within the Magical Feats for MUs. Some of the masteries are clearly two feats put together, but none of them appears to be four feats at once. Which makes you wonder why they cost four slots. A quick look at 150+ Barbarians is going to show anyone who cares that they have 5-6 masteries, eating up 20-24 of the already limited slots.
>>But then you're not mentioning the five other barriers that Barbs have, most of which can be stacked on top of Turtle.
Arguing about current Warding abilities seems a bit silly considering there's an acknowledgement that they all need to be toned down and will, eventually, be toned down. Warding is supposed to be the thing Barbarians are very good at -- arguably best at, although there's a lot of skill set placement question marks there. For what it's worth, Clerics probably have the strongest Ward set thanks primarily to Lay Ward. Without Lay Ward the MU guilds would be noticeably worse at Warding by comparison to Barbarians.
Insofar as better Debilitation? Barbarians are alright. Middle of the pack. It largely has to do with the paucity of contests Barbarians can engage in compared to MUs, where the primary guilds tend to have access to all but one contest without talking about sorcery. Clerics and WMs are, as usual, up at the top of the list. In this case so are Moon Mages.
But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Barbarian features being five years overdue for release and that being a source of continuing frustration.
HASTALUEGO
Re: Future
07/08/2018 08:56 AM CDT
>>Barbarians pay 4 slots for what is contained within the Magical Feats for MUs. Some of the masteries are clearly two feats put together, but none of them appears to be four feats at once. Which makes you wonder why they cost four slots. A quick look at 150+ Barbarians is going to show anyone who cares that they have 5-6 masteries, eating up 20-24 of the already limited slots.
On top of this, you have to master the "Path" (by spending a ton of slots) to even unlock the masteries. As a Circle 50 Barbarian who was told to dive headfirst into Flame to get Powermonger, I only have one of those Masteries. Its going to take me quite some time to unlock the rest of them.
I don't agree that the Guild is half-released, because most of the abilities do function and it was designed this way on purpose. But I do believe this design is not tenable, and some of the abilities seem pointless. Mana Torment comes to mind.
On top of this, you have to master the "Path" (by spending a ton of slots) to even unlock the masteries. As a Circle 50 Barbarian who was told to dive headfirst into Flame to get Powermonger, I only have one of those Masteries. Its going to take me quite some time to unlock the rest of them.
I don't agree that the Guild is half-released, because most of the abilities do function and it was designed this way on purpose. But I do believe this design is not tenable, and some of the abilities seem pointless. Mana Torment comes to mind.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Future
07/08/2018 10:03 AM CDT
>>On top of this, you have to master the "Path" (by spending a ton of slots) to even unlock the masteries.
TBH, having "path masteries" is a kinda cool thing. I like that Traders also ended up adopting that when their spellbooks got rolled out.
I can understand why some feel that certain things should just be "this is the way it works" or "a magical feat would do this instead" when it comes to those specific masteries, though. But the general concept of them? Pretty neat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TBH, having "path masteries" is a kinda cool thing. I like that Traders also ended up adopting that when their spellbooks got rolled out.
I can understand why some feel that certain things should just be "this is the way it works" or "a magical feat would do this instead" when it comes to those specific masteries, though. But the general concept of them? Pretty neat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FUTILITY
Re: Future
07/08/2018 01:28 PM CDT
I'd argue that the Barbs SvS situation is pretty silly at the moment.
Why Barbs don't have any Finesse contests is beyond me. That leaves Strength and Charisma as the only things they can boost for offensive SvS and Stamina as the only thing they can boost for SvS defense.
So on top of a narrower availability of contests Barbarians can't boost relevant stats for most of the contests, but in particular for the defensive contests.
That's a problem. It's a pretty big problem on the whole because any skill-for-skill contest is generally going to find the Barbarian with lower circle totals and thus lower TDP totals.
In that sense it feels like very little attention was paid to the outcomes of SvS for Barbarians and a lot more on whether things "fit thematically." I seriously doubt that are more than a handful of Barbarians who have Mage's Lash or Mana Torment because they are, functionally, useless. Mage's Lash at least has a contest that mildly favors the Barbarian, but lowering Primary Magic does absolutely nothing. It's a mastery skill. The chance to interrupt is not great, either.
War stomp was supposed to give Barbarians a very reliable, very favorable contest but it never materialized.
The alpha strike or secondary damage stream never materialized.
A lot of "never materialized" that, to me, sounds an awful lot like half-released.
Why Barbs don't have any Finesse contests is beyond me. That leaves Strength and Charisma as the only things they can boost for offensive SvS and Stamina as the only thing they can boost for SvS defense.
So on top of a narrower availability of contests Barbarians can't boost relevant stats for most of the contests, but in particular for the defensive contests.
That's a problem. It's a pretty big problem on the whole because any skill-for-skill contest is generally going to find the Barbarian with lower circle totals and thus lower TDP totals.
In that sense it feels like very little attention was paid to the outcomes of SvS for Barbarians and a lot more on whether things "fit thematically." I seriously doubt that are more than a handful of Barbarians who have Mage's Lash or Mana Torment because they are, functionally, useless. Mage's Lash at least has a contest that mildly favors the Barbarian, but lowering Primary Magic does absolutely nothing. It's a mastery skill. The chance to interrupt is not great, either.
War stomp was supposed to give Barbarians a very reliable, very favorable contest but it never materialized.
The alpha strike or secondary damage stream never materialized.
A lot of "never materialized" that, to me, sounds an awful lot like half-released.
FUTILITY
Re: Future
07/08/2018 01:30 PM CDT
In fairness, I forgot to mention we can boost Agility and Reflex for Reflex contests, which is not nothing. But it's a lot less than most guilds can boost for these contests. In particular, Barbarians can't boost anything for Willpower, which is going to be an abiding problem.
RCHIGHT
Re: Future
07/10/2018 07:17 PM CDT
>Why Barbs don't have any Finesse contests is beyond me. That leaves Strength and Charisma as the only things they can boost for offensive SvS and Stamina as the only thing they can boost for SvS defense.
Maybe I'm showing my ignorance but I don't remember what a "Finesse" contest is. These are what our roars (offensive) contest. What do Finesse attacks contest?
Roars
Anger (-Balance) : Fear v Reflex
Embrace: (-Attack) : Fear v Fortitude
Rage: (-EDF) : Power v Willpower
Screech: (-Discipline/Reflex) : Power v Fortitude
Hiss: (Enemies flee) : Fear vs Willpower
Strike: (Stun/knockback) : Power vs Reflex
Lash: (-Primary Magic/Interrupt): Fear vs Fortitude
Wail: (Immobilize) : Fear vs Fortitude
Torment: (-Attunement) : Fear vs Willpower
Slash: (-Hiding) : Power vs Reflex
Shriek: (-Shield, kneel) : Power vs Willpower
>In fairness, I forgot to mention we can boost Agility and Reflex for Reflex contests, which is not nothing. But it's a lot less than most guilds can boost for these contests. In particular, Barbarians can't boost anything for Willpower, which is going to be an abiding problem.
I agree with this 100%. My suggestion is to make Wolverine a +Discipline and advance speed boost, cost 2.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Maybe I'm showing my ignorance but I don't remember what a "Finesse" contest is. These are what our roars (offensive) contest. What do Finesse attacks contest?
Roars
Anger (-Balance) : Fear v Reflex
Embrace: (-Attack) : Fear v Fortitude
Rage: (-EDF) : Power v Willpower
Screech: (-Discipline/Reflex) : Power v Fortitude
Hiss: (Enemies flee) : Fear vs Willpower
Strike: (Stun/knockback) : Power vs Reflex
Lash: (-Primary Magic/Interrupt): Fear vs Fortitude
Wail: (Immobilize) : Fear vs Fortitude
Torment: (-Attunement) : Fear vs Willpower
Slash: (-Hiding) : Power vs Reflex
Shriek: (-Shield, kneel) : Power vs Willpower
>In fairness, I forgot to mention we can boost Agility and Reflex for Reflex contests, which is not nothing. But it's a lot less than most guilds can boost for these contests. In particular, Barbarians can't boost anything for Willpower, which is going to be an abiding problem.
I agree with this 100%. My suggestion is to make Wolverine a +Discipline and advance speed boost, cost 2.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
HASTALUEGO
Re: Future
07/10/2018 08:08 PM CDT
>>Maybe I'm showing my ignorance but I don't remember what a "Finesse" contest is. These are what our roars (offensive) contest. What do Finesse attacks contest?
Its not what they contest (which could be any of the 3 stat defenses), its that its an SvS attack where the primary stat is Agility, and I'm guessing they would rather pump TDPs into Agility than into Strength or Charisma.
Its not what they contest (which could be any of the 3 stat defenses), its that its an SvS attack where the primary stat is Agility, and I'm guessing they would rather pump TDPs into Agility than into Strength or Charisma.
RCHIGHT
Re: Future
07/11/2018 01:59 AM CDT
Ah, so we don't have any offensive abilities that are Agility prime, but only Charisma or Strength? That's somewhat fair... except there are no "magic" attacks that use Agility, at all, let alone in the primary attribute slot. Thanks for the clarification as I think you are correct in what the poster means.
One other thing, SvS and Barb buffs in regards to stats; The cap on buffs is 20% across the board so any buffs for any guild is the same. Just saying, as I read in one of the posts that stat buffs for barbs are not on par with other guilds (not going GvG here!). However, not having a Discipline, Intelligence, or Wisdom buff puts us at a disadvantage indeed as these are all either primary, secondary, or tertiary attributes for offensive and defensive magic (system) attacks/defense. If we are the guild that has the best defense against magic then we should have a boost in at least one of these stats. My vote is for Discipline at a minimum but Wisdom and Intelligence too. I think Gor'togs being built for our guild in the beginning of the game has hampered the lore/development of our guild in this case. Very few people would play a Gor'tog as a MU (not saying they don't, but it's a hard row to hoe). We should have abilities that boost all stats, in a perfect Elanthian world.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
One other thing, SvS and Barb buffs in regards to stats; The cap on buffs is 20% across the board so any buffs for any guild is the same. Just saying, as I read in one of the posts that stat buffs for barbs are not on par with other guilds (not going GvG here!). However, not having a Discipline, Intelligence, or Wisdom buff puts us at a disadvantage indeed as these are all either primary, secondary, or tertiary attributes for offensive and defensive magic (system) attacks/defense. If we are the guild that has the best defense against magic then we should have a boost in at least one of these stats. My vote is for Discipline at a minimum but Wisdom and Intelligence too. I think Gor'togs being built for our guild in the beginning of the game has hampered the lore/development of our guild in this case. Very few people would play a Gor'tog as a MU (not saying they don't, but it's a hard row to hoe). We should have abilities that boost all stats, in a perfect Elanthian world.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Future
07/11/2018 02:10 AM CDT
Clerics have one spell that boosts agility, reflex, and strength, so screw it why not. Give Barbs one form or meditation for discipline, intelligence, and wisdom, why not!
DRPLAYER1
FUTILITY
Re: Future
07/12/2018 02:31 PM CDT
>>Maybe I'm showing my ignorance but I don't remember what a "Finesse" contest is. These are what our roars (offensive) contest. What do Finesse attacks contest?
Finesse has Agi/Ref/Int as your contest factors. Often versus Reflex or Fortitude.
Finesse has Agi/Ref/Int as your contest factors. Often versus Reflex or Fortitude.
URITEL
Re: Future
07/25/2018 01:42 AM CDT
>>Kodius is not gone, but RL has been eating up enough of his time and energy that he's sort of on "critical fix duty" and only doing other things when he can.
What's defined as a critical fix duty? We've had abilities that haven't worked properly (or at all) since 3.x and they're still overlooked. And when issues are brought up because of the way they barbarians were designed in the first place, we're told "I don't want to do xyz until all these other things are done because I don't want to do the work twice" - which, well, I could understand, if these issues weren't going on five years old now with no real plans on when the other changes needed for him to consider giving the guild a little bit of dev time (barrier review, for example) are anticipated to happen.
Slot costs are still an issue and not something that should necessarily require specifically Kodius to fix. We're still hard capped on the number of forms and meditations that we can have up at a time so having more available slots isn't pushing the guild into an "OP" scenario, just one where we have more choices available to us to use depending on the situation - something that most guilds have as well. I'm not even necessarily talking about the nonsensical additions of +aug/debil/ward thrown into abilities and masteries and overcharging the cost of masteries for useless "perks" - but moreso things like eagle, which does the same exact thing as see the wind does, but for barbs, it costs more. Or meditate power, which does the same thing perceive does, but it costs us a slot while perceive is free for MUs. Or the various other things.
Quick cleanups like that would at least give a little hope in the barbarian world that the customers who play them actually matter to staff. At least in the MU world there can be slot costs balances made across a variety of guilds without needing to have a specific advocate over each of them to make any changes. We've been at the whim of someone who hasn't been wanting to make appropriate/in-line changes for our guild because "the mage GMs did things differently in 3.x than what I thought they were going to do, so it isn't my fault barbs are different" even when he was available before "critical fix duty."
THESAVAGE
Re: Future
08/01/2018 09:28 PM CDT
So, here we are a month later, still no real word other than 'Yeah you're broken, no idea when you're getting fixed, or how.' Can we get some kind of intention posted, at least? Where we fall in the scheme of things? Seeing the thief changes on test about to go live leaves us even further behind, and there's a good number of frustrated Barbs wanting to know what's going to be done, or even when.
DR-IOCANTHE
Re: Future
08/01/2018 11:28 PM CDT
We have some GMs in training right now. Once they've survived CE training, some of them will be heading into code, some at deeper levels than others. Every GM with any time or energy to spare is pouring their time and energy into getting folks trained.
Once we have our new coders writing stable code, we can start figuring out which systems and guilds are most desperately in need of attention while we work on the next next batch of GMs.
With the guild updates over the last year, we're in better shape than we were. I don't know for sure that we have any that are absolutely "broken" right now. Every guild has at least SOME stuff that makes it interesting enough to play, even if there are aspects that are overdue for updates to make them even better.
If I had a better answer, I'd have given it a month ago, but I don't.
When we have someone (or someones) ready to tackle some of the overdue stuff for your guild, we will be saying so.
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
Once we have our new coders writing stable code, we can start figuring out which systems and guilds are most desperately in need of attention while we work on the next next batch of GMs.
With the guild updates over the last year, we're in better shape than we were. I don't know for sure that we have any that are absolutely "broken" right now. Every guild has at least SOME stuff that makes it interesting enough to play, even if there are aspects that are overdue for updates to make them even better.
If I had a better answer, I'd have given it a month ago, but I don't.
When we have someone (or someones) ready to tackle some of the overdue stuff for your guild, we will be saying so.
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Future
08/02/2018 03:59 AM CDT
Iocanthe -
While we have your attention, can you do a (what I hope is semi-quick) fix of Juggernaut and Dervish masteries? They are currently inactive but still being taught by our dance masters, so they are broken in the literal sense, and have been for over a year now. I have bugged the rooms/assisted about this issue several times. I had to spend two months and my own plats unlearning them to free up those spell slots, which is brutal at a tertiary rate after circle 100.
Besides those, everything is functionally fine, and thank you for your forwardness regarding time tables for development.
While we have your attention, can you do a (what I hope is semi-quick) fix of Juggernaut and Dervish masteries? They are currently inactive but still being taught by our dance masters, so they are broken in the literal sense, and have been for over a year now. I have bugged the rooms/assisted about this issue several times. I had to spend two months and my own plats unlearning them to free up those spell slots, which is brutal at a tertiary rate after circle 100.
Besides those, everything is functionally fine, and thank you for your forwardness regarding time tables for development.
DRPLAYER1
DR-IOCANTHE
Re: Future
08/03/2018 11:15 PM CDT
Keeping in mind that I'm not a power-coder by any means, I did a scan through for scripts that call on, call for, or otherwise interact with Barbarian masteries. I stopped counting at 30.
It is possible that only some of those scripts would need edits and QCs, but from here it looks like a potentially labor-intensive thing.
Sorry that isn't good news for a quick and easy fix, but mebbe it gives a hint as to why it isn't already fixed?
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
It is possible that only some of those scripts would need edits and QCs, but from here it looks like a potentially labor-intensive thing.
Sorry that isn't good news for a quick and easy fix, but mebbe it gives a hint as to why it isn't already fixed?
Iocanthe
Doing stuff
DIMINISHEDANGEL
GORTEOUS
Re: Future
08/07/2018 08:28 PM CDT
An ice archon tromps into view, sending down a shower of ice and snow with every step.
An ice archon tromps into view, sending down a shower of ice and snow with every step.
The creaking of ice heralds the coming of an ice archon, which walks ponderously into the area.
R>
An ice archon raises its massive icy foot and brings it downward!
R>
An ice archon moves into view, dragging its feet and leaving huge snowy scratches behind it.
R>
The ice archon begins to advance on you!
The ice archon is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
R>
The ice archon begins to advance on you!
The ice archon is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
R> roar quiet rage
The fury of Everild's Rage burns in your soul, and your roar is filled with that fury. Rage intimidates, and fear weakens. Foes shall fall before you, weakened and humiliated by the expression of your strength.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
In case it isn't clear what you're looking at - things are advancing, but roars do not pick them up as valid targets.
I suspect that this ties back to a general bug with target acquisition that has existed since 3.0 went live that can be observed with bows, where AIM and FACE(both the command and auto-face) are not selecting the same target. In other words, you can be aiming at the 4th Archon while facing the 1st Archon. I suspect that this is the origin of the bug.
Nonetheless, this bug disproportionately affects Barbarians since we don't have access to magic, and a number of our abilities rely on this mechanic.
Earthquake is still completely broken in PvP and often broken in PvE because of this bug.
Shriek also still doesn't properly drop targets to their knees on high-end success, and I've never once seen it work in PvP, yet that's what it is supposed to do.
Slash the Shadows doesn't work, either - you have to be engaged to roar someone out of the shadows, but you can't face someone that you can't see and they don't register as engaged, thus preventing the ability from working.
I suspect the origin of the stealth bug that Thieves seem to often encounter is also tied into this bug.
So there's 5 bugs here that are all (IMO) tied to one underlying bug.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
An ice archon tromps into view, sending down a shower of ice and snow with every step.
The creaking of ice heralds the coming of an ice archon, which walks ponderously into the area.
R>
An ice archon raises its massive icy foot and brings it downward!
R>
An ice archon moves into view, dragging its feet and leaving huge snowy scratches behind it.
R>
The ice archon begins to advance on you!
The ice archon is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
R>
The ice archon begins to advance on you!
The ice archon is still a distance away from you and is closing steadily.
R> roar quiet rage
The fury of Everild's Rage burns in your soul, and your roar is filled with that fury. Rage intimidates, and fear weakens. Foes shall fall before you, weakened and humiliated by the expression of your strength.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
R>
In case it isn't clear what you're looking at - things are advancing, but roars do not pick them up as valid targets.
I suspect that this ties back to a general bug with target acquisition that has existed since 3.0 went live that can be observed with bows, where AIM and FACE(both the command and auto-face) are not selecting the same target. In other words, you can be aiming at the 4th Archon while facing the 1st Archon. I suspect that this is the origin of the bug.
Nonetheless, this bug disproportionately affects Barbarians since we don't have access to magic, and a number of our abilities rely on this mechanic.
Earthquake is still completely broken in PvP and often broken in PvE because of this bug.
Shriek also still doesn't properly drop targets to their knees on high-end success, and I've never once seen it work in PvP, yet that's what it is supposed to do.
Slash the Shadows doesn't work, either - you have to be engaged to roar someone out of the shadows, but you can't face someone that you can't see and they don't register as engaged, thus preventing the ability from working.
I suspect the origin of the stealth bug that Thieves seem to often encounter is also tied into this bug.
So there's 5 bugs here that are all (IMO) tied to one underlying bug.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
RCHIGHT
Re: Future
08/13/2018 05:56 PM CDT
I have never seen "roar quiet" affect critters at missile range. Once they get to pole and melee it works then. Don't know if it's a bug or not but that's been true since 3.0 came out as you've alluded to.
As for the rest of your post...I'm with you!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
As for the rest of your post...I'm with you!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
