A couple of notes.

- Cheetah Swiftness would likely be a good comparable to monkey. Balance heal + auto stand + agility = 2 slot cyclic.

- Frostbite may be a good comparable for madness. Fatigue damage, knock down, -stamina 2 slot AOE.

- Ethereal Shield could be a good comparable for SWAN. 1 slot, group + AOE, and reduces most magic in a non-ablative way.

- Shatter doesn't have a knock-down. You need to add something like rebuke. It seems the effect is +1 slot cost.

- For the powermonger comparison, you really need to add in efficient harnessing and the other mana feat. It takes all four to see the best gains, and I'm not sure it'st still as strong as power-monger is. So you might want to add PoM, OM, Nexus, AUS, or Shadowling. It all depends on the numbers behind the scenes.

- Yogi is unique, but frankly that's not a barbarian thing. Meditations are akin to rituals. You can do those as an MU in combat. The reduced RT is a huge buff to barbarians though.

- Compare templar to compost. 0 cost ability.

- Compare avalanche to Zephyr. Pulsing, AOE, 2 slot fatigue heal. Room based though.

- Vertigo is probably a better comparison to anger of the earth, but it's also pulsing and includes a -OF for 3 slots. Maybe DEMA, but frankly it's a wasted slot right now. No one would use that in the current state since balance isn't a huge deal in PvE.

- Death's Embrace could be compared to rage of the clans. AOE, Pusling, +melee/ranged accuracy, 2 slots.

- Is MPP a good comparable to tenacity? How do the numbers align. Also look at the new trader spell which is just piercing + puncture for 2 slots, and it can be shattered with an impact attack. How do the numbers work for Duelist too?

- Wildfire and Volcano and Strategos and Wolverine and Prediction are barbarian unique utility, maybe comparable to thieves, but their slot costs are terrible.

- Guile is a bad comparison to rage due to thief slot costs, concentration costs, and how short the ability is. I'd instead point out HYH + MALE which lets you give an OF or DF or Hybrid debuff AOE. That's 4 slots for an AOE cyclic.

- You need to add slots for Aegis of Granite since its an elemental transformation. If you go AEG then you lose agility, melee weapon buffs, brawling buff, and bonus fire damage. Shield of Light is probably a better example. That's 3 slots for +shield + conjured shield (which you'll almost never use, you just want the buff). GoL can be used for the stamina comparison. That's +1 for courage.

- How do the numbers work for Tribalist? Do you need to compare it to AUS + Shadowling to get a comparable amount?

Also note that I believe Raesh went through and reduced the cost for AOE abilities. Frostbite, Tremor, DMRS, and others were reduced from 4 slots each to 2 slots each. It's also worth mentioning that most casters don't have the same progression flexibility as barbarians (they should!). So some spells have artificially reduced costs to reflect picking up worthless spells (YS) or other undesirables (IE: IP for Warmies to get Frost Bite - some use, but not everyone wants it). You should also add +1 slot for each cyclic you're comparing to since they get a slot bonus.

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Having said all of that, I wouldn't kick this ant hill. I agree that slot costs seem unreasonable, but barbarians are in the place that the old bards used to be in. They could do effectively anything, but fewer things at any one time. That was deemed too powerful. They still haven't regained all of their abilities or unique utility that was stripped in 3.0. Barbarians are likely the most versatile guild in the game, with unique combat utility and fantastic skillset placement too boot. That's on top of abilities that appear (?) stronger per experience point, and the amount of signature abilities you needed to pull from so many guilds just to find comparable for most (not all!) of your buffs. If you're not careful, you could easily get a nerf.

--@Uritel, you have Duelist and Tribalist mixed up on your chart.

>A couple of notes.
>- For the powermonger comparison,

I'm only arguing for the IF masteries to be reduced in cost, the rest I leave to others.

Imagine if magic users needed 1 feat for debil cyclics, 1 for warding cyclics,1 for augmentation cyclics, and they each had a cost of 4 slots. That's where Barbs are. Tribalist helps with forms (think 1 set of cyclics), Titan helps with Berserks (there's a second set of cyclics), Powermonger helps with everything. Deep Attunement helps with everything, Efficient Channeling helps with cyclics, Efficient Harnessing helps with everything as well. Magic users get an effective 30% buff to mana usage, I'm positive that's comparable to what Barbs are seeing, but without knowing the actual numbers it's all a guessing game. What I do know is that barbs are crippled until they get those masteries, just like MU's are crippled without their feats.

Magic users need a feat to use universal foci that costs 1 slot, Barbs need to spend 4 slots for a Mastery that let's them start meditations while standing and/or in combat.

Barbarians cost: 16 slots plus massive prerequisites. Can only forget 1 ability per month.
Magic User cost: 5 slots if we get Debilitation Mastery to be on completely equal footing, and no prereqs. Can be forgotten at will as well when they become outgrown.

How is that anywhere near fair?

>You guys should really make better informed arguments

Eh, it's about as informed as it can get seeing as I have an MU with 1400+ in all magics. I don't think you understand at all what's going on with Barbs and their slot costing, you should probably play one and see how limited they are in comparison. Direct comparisons between the feats/masteries results in Barbs getting the short end of the stick. The feats for MU's cost 1 slot because they're needed, the feats for barbs (aka masteries) are also needed but cost 4x as much for the same exact effect... enlighten me on what you don't understand about this?

Can feats me unlearned at no cost and with no cooldown? I wasn't aware of that.

As I said elsewhere, slot costing is something we will continue to iterate on. When time allows I am inclined to buff the base IF regen/cost in exchange for less useful/expensive masteries.

But this will not occur until the Barrier review and other magic reviews are done - simply because I do not have the time to do the work twice.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

Tribalist: reduction in form cost + debil buff, accounted for that in my slot comparisons. An MU gets the same effect for 2 slots, I'd gladly trade off the debil buff for a slot refund.

Titan: reduction in berserk cost, nothing else. MU gets the same effect for 1 slot.

Powermonger: precise readings which MU's get that for free with POWER, +PM ok so we're at 1 slot, +Passive limit, so we're at 2 slots now.

Yogi: Don't have to sit to use meditations 1 slot, reduces RT 1 slot, reduces IF cost 1 slot. So we're at 3 slots for this one. Equivalent MU would be universal ritual foci + faster rituals, the cost reduction MU's get is covered for all spells by Efficient Harnessing, barbs need a cost reduction for each of their ability types.

Barbarians: 16 slots, should be 8, and I'd give up the meditation RT reduction for another slot refunded.
Magic User: 6 slots (I forgot about raw channeling in my previous post).

Kodius, appreciate you letting us know slot costing is at least on the board to be looked at. A nifty IF bar for the UI would be amazing too... just saying! (it's Christmas time, might as well ask for it all!)

>>No cooldown, cost of some coins, not prohibitively expensive iirc.

This is more because the "preview" wasn't turned off yet. It's supposed to function like Throne City's spell forgetting system.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>>Can (magical) feats be unlearned at no cost and with no cooldown? I wasn't aware of that.

>>No cooldown, cost of some coins, not prohibitively expensive iirc.

>>>This is more because the "preview" wasn't turned off yet. It's supposed to function like Throne City's spell forgetting system.

Have a source for that, TEVESHSZAT? I could not find any posts that stated magical feats were intended to function on a cooldown timer like TC's spell forgetting system.

It would be cool if Barbarians could forget masteries outside of their normal ability forgetting timer for coins like MUs can forget magical feats.

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https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page

>>Let's also not forget that barbarian abilities are significantly faster than spells, instant in some cases. They're also not dispellable. That has value, especially in pvp.

I agree on the PVP aspect, however, barbs cannot dispel MUs either. So I put that as a fairly equal exchange between barbs/thieves and MUs.


>>I'd be willing to bet that most casters would happily trade an extra spell slot or two for an instant debilitation spell that never backfired.

Sure, I wouldn't mind trading an extra slot or two on a spell to make it instant. Every single one of them? No.


Some people have mentioned that barbs have the "best buffs in the game", but when I compare them vs clerics and warrior mages I don't see a whole lot of difference in the buffs themselves - just the costs that it takes to acquire them. Barbs are also capped in the number of buffs they can have up, MUs are not. Masteries are expensive and are bundled together - can't pick and choose what you want like you can with magical feats. Tribalist? At 1k+ debilitation, what is the +debilitation good for? It also has the ability to reduce the maintenance cost (something akin to efficient channeling?) of only forms, and passive regen reduction of forms. That costs four slots and a big investment in prereqs just to get there. People get stuck with the +debil which is useless on the upper end. Shouldn't be four slots for that (and others.)

>Have a source for that, TEVESHSZAT?

Now that it was brought up, I have to agree with Tev, I wanna say Raesh was talking about putting it onto some timer. And I wanna say it was here in the barb folders when we were complaining about XXX a few years ago.

> Imagine if magic users needed 1 feat for debil cyclics, 1 for warding cyclics,1 for augmentation cyclics, and they each had a cost of 4 slots

MUs can’t have multiple cyclics up at once, have four mana control feats, additional slots for mana control spells, have six slots for spell type masteries, and require 1-2 more slots for Cyclics. I’m pretty sure that the feats only grant 10% too, and I’m not sure if that double dips with magic skill set placement. So MUs are paying as much or more for less.

I think the ritual one could be looked at. I do wonder if you should have long prep times, high resource usage, mutually exclusive meditations, and material components to start barb rituals too, since we’re homogenizing.

We’d need numbers to compare effectiveness between all of that and the barb masteries.

>>merging some buffs together into more expensive spells

Are these helpful/possibly vital buffs mixed with buffs that are useless mid to late game? Or ones that are helpful throughout?

>>Are these helpful/possibly vital buffs mixed with buffs that are useless mid to late game?

I donno, how useful is an Int buff to a Paladin?

On the specific example of a spellskill buff being useless in the midgame, it could be Barbarians need harder and more exotic abilities to grow into? Just as a game balance / concept note, we're not against giving Magic Terts powerful, neat abilities. See: Traders getting a spell tied for hardest spell in the game.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

Personally, I don't to this day understand the punishingly hard cooldowns for forgetting spells/abilities. This is the ONLY game I play that still uses such a mechanic. Coin cost? Fine, but 30 DAYS per? Eesh.

Samsaren

>IMO, it's because you're [almost?] never at a point of no return for learning spells. "Man, I wish I learned X instead of Y" can be solved by circling more to get the slots needed for X, as opposed to starting a whole new build.

That assumes no future ability/spell development. Spells/abilities are supposed to be hard choices and slots will probably always be limited to ensure that stays the case. I agree that the penalty for changing abilities should not be severe. Making spell erasure available only in one province and cost some amount of coin is fine. Long timers are a dated concept from when people (gamers) had a longer attention span.

That’s not true. If I wear the wrong flavor of argyle socks from my awesome collection (don’t judge — it’s the hardest choice), nobody’s gonna kill me or force me to wear the same socks for a month. Removing a timer from ability/spell forget won’t ruin anyone’s enjoyment of the game and clearly it hasn’t been an issue for MUs yet. Should there be a cost? Sure, just like I should be mocked for my sock choice until I get the chance to remove them.

> What I do know is that barbs are crippled until they get those masteries, just like MU's are crippled without their feats.

I've played multiple Barbarians and MUs of primary/secondary/tert Magic. Strictly comparing pre-Mastery Barb to pre-Feats MU, the MUs have a much better time.

Related, but distinct, is that the MUs can get to their "must have" buffs a lot faster due to their prereq arrangement. Barbs have to climb multiple trees for the same buff coverage, which is compounded by their extra long due to their slow slot gain.

>On the specific example of a spellskill buff being useless in the midgame, it could be Barbarians need harder and more exotic abilities to grow into? Just as a game balance / concept note, we're not against giving Magic Terts powerful, neat abilities. See: Traders getting a spell tied for hardest spell in the game.

I'm keen on more exotic stuff for NMUs (or expansion of the non-magical repertoire of magic tertiary guilds), but I struggle to think up ways to give Barbarians new, useful utility that I'd use that doesn't involve TM ranks.