Just wondering if there was going to be, or already is, a method to avoid learning arcana from seeing hidden spell preparations? So far, it seems extremely difficult (at best) to avoid in any populated area, even just running through rooms.
Is there going to be a method to have the ranks removed (or is this going to wait until we have a general method to achieve this)?
I am --- Navak
VROTSOSJ
ABSOLON
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 12:07 AM CDT
<<Just wondering if there was going to be, or already is, a method to avoid learning arcana from seeing hidden spell preparations?
There is a method to avoid this in place. You will not learn any Arcana from seeing hidden spell preparations if you are at 0 ranks in Arcana. Once you take the step to learn some Arcana by some other means then the floodgate is open.
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There is a method to avoid this in place. You will not learn any Arcana from seeing hidden spell preparations if you are at 0 ranks in Arcana. Once you take the step to learn some Arcana by some other means then the floodgate is open.
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SHELTIM
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 09:17 AM CDT
I don't think that's a very good method and I'd like to see something else in place.
In my case, all it took was one moment of listening to the wrong class and now I'm stuck with a fair number of ranks of Arcana.
ABSOLON
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 09:19 AM CDT
Write better triggers?
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DR-ANNWYL
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning ::NUDGE::
08/29/2016 09:21 AM CDT
Kindly keep your responses civil and constructive.
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SPACEUNICORN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 10:12 AM CDT
>>Write better triggers?
upon conversion in 3.0, my barb was granted around a rank in all magics, including arcana and TM. I assisted about it, noone could explain why and they told me not to worry about it. I know of a few other this happened to as well. Now the arcana ranks pour in.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 11:09 AM CDT
While I appreciate wanting to be a purist about things, are there even any penalties associated with knowing Arcana anymore? From what I understand, there's potentially an eventual Agonar-update where he makes fart noises at you in the event that you ask him a specific question about magic, but that's about it. If anyone asks, just say you're learning how to better chew runestones.
It's not like Paladins and stealing (and isn't that going away eventually... or did it already and I just forgot?).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It's not like Paladins and stealing (and isn't that going away eventually... or did it already and I just forgot?).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
SPACEUNICORN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 11:13 AM CDT
Kodius clearly said more than once that there will be definite mechanical penalties to knowing these ranks; in the least, when interacting with the guild (Maybe kicked out, unable to circle?) at the most, inner fire related penalties.
DERIUM
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 12:39 PM CDT
> Kodius clearly said more than once that there will be definite mechanical penalties to knowing these ranks; in the least, when interacting with the guild (Maybe kicked out, unable to circle?) at the most, inner fire related penalties.
I'm sure some sort of repentence mechanism would happen if that was to be put into place. Look at empaths with shock or paladins with thievery.
SPACEUNICORN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 12:43 PM CDT
>>I'm sure some sort of repentence mechanism would happen if that was to be put into place. Look at empaths with shock or paladins with thievery.
Yes, he mentioned that as well. When the Empath shock quest was mentioned in parallel to it, he seemed to infer it would be MUCH worse. That being said, that is all well and good for someone who learns these ranks at some fault of their own. Hopefully when said system is introduced, there will be a one time granting of amnesty for those of us screwed by the system that don't want the ranks.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 03:18 PM CDT
>>Kodius clearly said more than once that there will be definite mechanical penalties to knowing these ranks; in the least, when interacting with the guild (Maybe kicked out, unable to circle?) at the most, inner fire related penalties.
I would double check that. I'm pretty sure that mindset changed from being an actual penalty to Agonar giving a message that amounts to acknowledging Agonar has an issue with magic. Nothing about being kicked out, being unable to circle, etc. Just Agonar, and possibly only Agonar, huffing about it if you ask him a particular thing.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I would double check that. I'm pretty sure that mindset changed from being an actual penalty to Agonar giving a message that amounts to acknowledging Agonar has an issue with magic. Nothing about being kicked out, being unable to circle, etc. Just Agonar, and possibly only Agonar, huffing about it if you ask him a particular thing.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 03:33 PM CDT
I dont think he said that. I think he said there might be RP repercussions but nothing mechanical. Furthermore, he offered that before any penalties or repercussions were enacted there would be also a way to UNLEARN said ranks.
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SPACEUNICORN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 03:58 PM CDT
>>I dont think he said that. I think he said there might be RP repercussions but nothing mechanical. Furthermore, he offered that before any penalties or repercussions were enacted there would be also a way to UNLEARN said ranks.
From a post in january 2013-
>>The Guild DOES NOT condone magical item usage. Even learning about magic and magical items to better defeat their use is shunned to some extent. I have an idea for unlearning Arcana ranks that is horribly cruel and unusual... it will be interesting to see what comes of it.
>>From a balance/playability standpoint it doesn't make sense to block Barbarians from magic item usage. Making it socially unacceptable and applying weird messaging side-effects to your abilities might be enoughn to discourage most folks from pursuing that course, however.
Why even develop a horribly cruel way to unlearn arcana if it wasn't detrimental?
Also, side effects to abilities doesn't necessarily sound like a good thing, and he says flat out the intention is to discourage most people from pursuing the course.
Then in November 2014-
>>As a Barbarian you will have to learn some Inner Fire and Augmentation/Debilitation or Warding. You will never need to (or really be able to) learn Utility. You can even learn Arcana skill, though when Enchanting releases I expect there will be some (mostly RP) penalties introduced for doing so and ways to unlearn those ranks.
Mostly RP penalties definitely seems to point towards the existence of non-RP penalties.
If he's changed his mind since then, I don't remember reading anything from him specifically saying so.
From a post in january 2013-
>>The Guild DOES NOT condone magical item usage. Even learning about magic and magical items to better defeat their use is shunned to some extent. I have an idea for unlearning Arcana ranks that is horribly cruel and unusual... it will be interesting to see what comes of it.
>>From a balance/playability standpoint it doesn't make sense to block Barbarians from magic item usage. Making it socially unacceptable and applying weird messaging side-effects to your abilities might be enoughn to discourage most folks from pursuing that course, however.
Why even develop a horribly cruel way to unlearn arcana if it wasn't detrimental?
Also, side effects to abilities doesn't necessarily sound like a good thing, and he says flat out the intention is to discourage most people from pursuing the course.
Then in November 2014-
>>As a Barbarian you will have to learn some Inner Fire and Augmentation/Debilitation or Warding. You will never need to (or really be able to) learn Utility. You can even learn Arcana skill, though when Enchanting releases I expect there will be some (mostly RP) penalties introduced for doing so and ways to unlearn those ranks.
Mostly RP penalties definitely seems to point towards the existence of non-RP penalties.
If he's changed his mind since then, I don't remember reading anything from him specifically saying so.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 05:06 PM CDT
Penalties for barbarian arcana ranks is probably least likely thing to get development time this decade.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
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They're proud of them."
-Raesh
ULIAN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 06:27 PM CDT
If there is a penalty to learning Arcana, I'm sunk. I've been preparing for enchanting:
Arcana: 516 02.12% dabbling (1/34)
Arcana: 516 02.12% dabbling (1/34)
DAMIAN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/29/2016 09:25 PM CDT
>>Write better triggers?
This is a really poor OOC solution to an IC problem. Some method of forgetting ranks for this specific issue should be created especially if it will be detrimental to barbarians in the future to know this skill.
For future reference, if you are able to catch it quickly enough (ie. before the pulse) you can SLEEP and wait it out so you don't absorb any experience.
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
This is a really poor OOC solution to an IC problem. Some method of forgetting ranks for this specific issue should be created especially if it will be detrimental to barbarians in the future to know this skill.
For future reference, if you are able to catch it quickly enough (ie. before the pulse) you can SLEEP and wait it out so you don't absorb any experience.
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
ABSOLON
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 12:43 AM CDT
<<This is a really poor OOC solution to an IC problem.
It wouldn't be an IC problem in the first place in the specific situation I was responding to without the OOC problem first. For someone who was literally forced into Arcana ranks, as SPACEUNICORN says he was with the skill conversion, I'm much more sympathetic. On the other hand, I don't have much sympathy at all for a Barbarian who ends up with Arcana ranks from using #trigger {^(.+) begins to lecture you} {send listen $1}. That's entirely on them for using a listen trigger that doesn't exclude Arcana.
<<Some method of forgetting ranks for this specific issue should be created especially if it will be detrimental to barbarians in the future to know this skill.
Kodius already indicated it would be implemented.
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It wouldn't be an IC problem in the first place in the specific situation I was responding to without the OOC problem first. For someone who was literally forced into Arcana ranks, as SPACEUNICORN says he was with the skill conversion, I'm much more sympathetic. On the other hand, I don't have much sympathy at all for a Barbarian who ends up with Arcana ranks from using #trigger {^(.+) begins to lecture you} {send listen $1}. That's entirely on them for using a listen trigger that doesn't exclude Arcana.
<<Some method of forgetting ranks for this specific issue should be created especially if it will be detrimental to barbarians in the future to know this skill.
Kodius already indicated it would be implemented.
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SHELTIM
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 08:11 AM CDT
Wait, what? Who said anything about a trigger? I mistook Arcana for one of the other A skills and listened for a pulse before I realized my mistake. I stopped listening as soon as I noticed, but the damage was done.
Damian brought up a good point about SLEEP being an option, but I wasn't aware of it back then (I have since realized I could also have rubbed favor orbs until it went away). Since that happened at circle 5 or so I've gotten another 50-60 ranks, unavoidably, just from running around.
SPACEUNICORN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 09:03 AM CDT
>>Since that happened at circle 5 or so I've gotten another 50-60 ranks, unavoidably, just from running around.
What? Really? As the ability to passively learn arcana just went live with 3.2, and barbarians being magic tert and the extremely small amount granted in this situation, 50-60 ranks "just by running around" seems pretty impossible.
SHELTIM
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 09:45 AM CDT
SKILL: Rank/Percent towards next rank/Amount learning/Mindstate fraction
Arcana: 55 01.80% clear (0/34)
I may not have been clear, "just running around" was my way of saying "my usual training regime" (i.e. not trying to learn any Arcana), which includes time in town and therefore learning just from being around magic users.
SEPED
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 10:03 AM CDT
>What? Really? As the ability to passively learn arcana just went live with 3.2, and barbarians being magic tert and the extremely small amount granted in this situation, 50-60 ranks "just by running around" seems pretty impossible.
My trader is had about 60 ranks before 3.2 hit.
Arcana: 120 57.66% clear
Magic tert, learning only from hanging out where people are at in town, and two weeks back I moved to less populated areas for noise reasons.
SPACEUNICORN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 10:06 AM CDT
>>I may not have been clear, "just running around" was my way of saying "my usual training regime" (i.e. not trying to learn any Arcana), which includes time in town and therefore learning just from being around magic users.
Magic 3.2 is what started you being passively able to learn arcana through observation and spell recognition. Magic 3.2 was just released right around a month ago. What you're saying here, as a tert, is that through the TINY bits granted by observing spell preps, you actually gained 2 ranks of a tert magic a day, pretty much every single day, since then? I understood what you meant, I'm just having a real hard time believing it.
SPACEUNICORN
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 10:08 AM CDT
>>Magic tert, learning only from hanging out where people are at in town, and two weeks back I moved to less populated areas for noise reasons.
Hanging out in town around casters constantly keeps it running with 100% uptime. That is not the impression I was getting from the other description of their actions. I see it seems to be doing a whole lot more for terts than I thought, though. I guess I just don't spend enough time sitting in town.
SHELTIM
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 10:19 AM CDT
>> Magic 3.2 is what started you being passively able to learn arcana through observation and spell recognition. Magic 3.2 was just released right around a month ago. What you're saying here, as a tert, is that through the TINY bits granted by observing spell preps, you actually gained 2 ranks of a tert magic a day, pretty much every single day, since then? I understood what you meant, I'm just having a real hard time believing it.
Yes. Keep in mind that for the first 25 ranks, a tert has the same drain rate as a secondary. I spent a lot of time hanging out in the Ranger's guild - people are casting pretty much nonstop.
SEPED
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/30/2016 10:25 AM CDT
> is that through the TINY bits granted by observing spell preps,
It mind locks me, fairly quickly, if I hang out in a crowded room.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/31/2016 03:28 PM CDT
On one hand, that seems like... vastly more experience than something comparable like learning Perception around other players.
On the other hand low-level arcana training is no fun.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
On the other hand low-level arcana training is no fun.
"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.
They're proud of them."
-Raesh
ODIN331
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
06/10/2017 12:45 AM CDT
Free TDP's at worst.. unique abilities at best.
SQUANTO
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
06/10/2017 11:31 AM CDT
I see this thread got resurrected a year later, but I have been thinking about this a lot recently. Kodius, if you are not going to associate a penalty with having arcana ranks, would you be willing to entertain some kind of bonus for remaining magic pure?
If not, I guess we should just open the floodgates to yet another source of TDPs? IDK. If not... maybe eliminate arcana completely from barbs, replacing it with some kind of damage-producing roaring skill like we talked about in the past (Targetted Rage, etc), converting arcana into that pool either like how mechanical lore conversion works or as an exp bonus pool?
Anyone? Anyone?
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
If not, I guess we should just open the floodgates to yet another source of TDPs? IDK. If not... maybe eliminate arcana completely from barbs, replacing it with some kind of damage-producing roaring skill like we talked about in the past (Targetted Rage, etc), converting arcana into that pool either like how mechanical lore conversion works or as an exp bonus pool?
Anyone? Anyone?
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
RCHIGHT
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
06/10/2017 12:56 PM CDT
My problem is that while hosting the Wyvern Trials I started learning Arcana, not of my own volition. Now I'm stuck with, "oh well, you might as well train it if you have it." I wish I was pure.
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CARAAMON
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
06/10/2017 01:01 PM CDT
I very much would like to see a benefit from not having arcana.
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SQUANTO
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
06/10/2017 01:46 PM CDT
Yeah, unfortunately, if you gain 1 rank in it, you start learning it with spell preps. I think some barbs mentioned out of the character generator, some of them had arcana? IDK can't remember totally TBH.
Either way, a benefit to being magic pure would be great. If a barbarian wanted to get to the point of being untainted by magic, perhaps completing a quest to get cleansed could be made available.
If not, I hate the idea of just exhaling on some crystal over and over or sitting around soaking up magic lessons from listening to spell preps only to get no actual benefit other than merely TDPs. It literally goes against the thematic goal of being the anti-magic guild. I would far prefer having a new skill replace arcana that has utility and have arcana shut off to us, rolling in any previous gains you acquired in arcana.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Either way, a benefit to being magic pure would be great. If a barbarian wanted to get to the point of being untainted by magic, perhaps completing a quest to get cleansed could be made available.
If not, I hate the idea of just exhaling on some crystal over and over or sitting around soaking up magic lessons from listening to spell preps only to get no actual benefit other than merely TDPs. It literally goes against the thematic goal of being the anti-magic guild. I would far prefer having a new skill replace arcana that has utility and have arcana shut off to us, rolling in any previous gains you acquired in arcana.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
06/11/2017 08:52 PM CDT
A long time ago Kodius said there would be a penalty for magic ranks, and it would be RP in nature I believe. He also said there would be a way to get rid of them if this ever happened. Personally I like some arcana ranks so I can id scrolls.
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ODIN331
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/28/2017 07:25 PM CDT
I had the thought that arcana might be nessesary in enchanting weapons... just a thought.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Unwanted Arcana Learning
08/28/2017 08:05 PM CDT
>>I had the thought that arcana might be nessesary in enchanting weapons... just a thought.
The enchanting skill is going to be the primary driver of enchanting, like forging for weapons/etc.
There is going to be a spell that will allow something to be done at some step – think using bellows to keeping the "fire" going at the proper strength when forging – but this can also be done by using a tool. That said, I don't know if the tool that circumvents having to use a spell is going to require Arcana to activate, instead (Arcana is only going to be involved with the activation of certain types of enchantments). I'm hoping this isn't the case, or at least for all versions of this tool.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The enchanting skill is going to be the primary driver of enchanting, like forging for weapons/etc.
There is going to be a spell that will allow something to be done at some step – think using bellows to keeping the "fire" going at the proper strength when forging – but this can also be done by using a tool. That said, I don't know if the tool that circumvents having to use a spell is going to require Arcana to activate, instead (Arcana is only going to be involved with the activation of certain types of enchantments). I'm hoping this isn't the case, or at least for all versions of this tool.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
