I find it really bad that grapple works off of tactics for barbarians, for the most part pretty much guarantees no grappling for us against, well everyone but rangers? Really disheartening to learn that someone who has well under 100 ranks in brawling to me is avoiding grapples because of tactics alone. Would love this to move to expertise, atleast let the weapons guild be the weapons guild everywhere.
FATBOY30269
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 01:08 AM CDT
Tactics contests the victim's Defending skill, not their tactics.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
FATBOY30269
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 01:22 AM CDT
Alright that makes a bit more sense now, my tactics wasn't complete garbage, but sadly that means im still not going to get close to grabbing anyone with how easy defending is to learn.
SHADOWCHIEF2
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 04:38 AM CDT
I never seem to have a problem, and whining can go to the 6 o'clock cuz really its pretty ridiculous if you can't train your character right.
NINEVAH1
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 08:40 AM CDT
>>my tactics wasn't complete garbage, but sadly that means im still not going to get close to grabbing anyone with how easy defending is to learn.
The majority of guilds are Armor tert, and Tactics is just as easy to keep moving as Defending. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them. Grappling isn't a simple move to pull off anyways. Use the other Tactics moves and put yourself into a better position to make grappling easier.
The majority of guilds are Armor tert, and Tactics is just as easy to keep moving as Defending. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them. Grappling isn't a simple move to pull off anyways. Use the other Tactics moves and put yourself into a better position to make grappling easier.
RCHIGHT
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 09:24 AM CDT
>Tactics is just as easy to keep moving as Defending. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them.
Um, you must not play a barbarian then if you think this is true. I just checked on Elanthia Profiles to make sure what I'm thinking is correct and sure enough. Even with the highest barbarians listings there tactics falls ~300 ranks behind defending and ~500 ranks behind weapons.
Since my return, I've been backtraining all weapons up to reach the same ranks as my primary two. I've kept all armor skills, tactics, expertise, and non-weapon weapons skills locked for the whole time. My lowest weapon at the start was 70 ranks. Now all weapons but two are at 536 ranks. In that time my Expertise has grown to 900, my Defending to 700 and my Tactics to 600. This is at circle 108. It appears the gap will continue to widen as I grow.
Of course, this is to be expected since we are Lore terts. However, it validates the OPs concern and I agree with the post. It has nothing to do with "training" the tactics skill.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Um, you must not play a barbarian then if you think this is true. I just checked on Elanthia Profiles to make sure what I'm thinking is correct and sure enough. Even with the highest barbarians listings there tactics falls ~300 ranks behind defending and ~500 ranks behind weapons.
Since my return, I've been backtraining all weapons up to reach the same ranks as my primary two. I've kept all armor skills, tactics, expertise, and non-weapon weapons skills locked for the whole time. My lowest weapon at the start was 70 ranks. Now all weapons but two are at 536 ranks. In that time my Expertise has grown to 900, my Defending to 700 and my Tactics to 600. This is at circle 108. It appears the gap will continue to widen as I grow.
Of course, this is to be expected since we are Lore terts. However, it validates the OPs concern and I agree with the post. It has nothing to do with "training" the tactics skill.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 10:28 AM CDT
Of course there's a gap - it's a tert skill. But that said, this isn't a bad thing. Tactics is just another offensive skill, that happens to be in the Lore skillset.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 04:40 PM CDT
>Tactics is just as easy to keep moving as Defending. There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them.
>>Um, you must not play a barbarian then if you think this is true. I just checked on Elanthia Profiles to make sure what I'm thinking is correct and sure enough. Even with the highest barbarians listings there tactics falls ~300 ranks behind defending and ~500 ranks behind weapons.
I think his point was that tactics is just as easy to keep moving as defending, not that barbarians can keep tactics (tertiary) in line with defending (secondary). It's accurate that tactics is just as easy to train defending. I keep it locked indefinitely in combat with even bigger lore exp pools.
>>Um, you must not play a barbarian then if you think this is true. I just checked on Elanthia Profiles to make sure what I'm thinking is correct and sure enough. Even with the highest barbarians listings there tactics falls ~300 ranks behind defending and ~500 ranks behind weapons.
I think his point was that tactics is just as easy to keep moving as defending, not that barbarians can keep tactics (tertiary) in line with defending (secondary). It's accurate that tactics is just as easy to train defending. I keep it locked indefinitely in combat with even bigger lore exp pools.
RCHIGHT
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 05:27 PM CDT
>I think his point was that tactics is just as easy to keep moving as defending, not that barbarians can keep tactics (tertiary) in line with defending (secondary). It's accurate that tactics is just as easy to train defending. I keep it locked indefinitely in combat with even bigger lore exp pools.
>There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them.
I read it that he was saying exactly that. Because it is a tert skill there are many reasons that I shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them. That was my point. I said in my post that I keep it locked all the time when I'm hunting. I also pointed out it is a tert and shouldn't be able to be kept on par. My problem was with saying that it is a "training" problem. No, it is not a training problem. It is a skill placement "problem", which I am fine with. Still doesn't negate the OP complaint though.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
>There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them.
I read it that he was saying exactly that. Because it is a tert skill there are many reasons that I shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them. That was my point. I said in my post that I keep it locked all the time when I'm hunting. I also pointed out it is a tert and shouldn't be able to be kept on par. My problem was with saying that it is a "training" problem. No, it is not a training problem. It is a skill placement "problem", which I am fine with. Still doesn't negate the OP complaint though.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
NINEVAH1
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/05/2016 07:00 PM CDT
Warbie was correct.
>There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them.
"them" = most other guilds since they are also Armor (Defending) tert.
Does it suck having Tactics as a tert skill? Yes, I can sympathize with that. Barbs aren't the only guild with Tactics as a tert skill, or the only guild with an offensive skill that is tert, either.
Does that mean Tactics, and thus grappling, is useless and impossible in at-level PvP with most guilds in the game? No, if you know what you are doing while training and PvPing.
>There is no reason you shouldn't be able to keep it on par with them.
"them" = most other guilds since they are also Armor (Defending) tert.
Does it suck having Tactics as a tert skill? Yes, I can sympathize with that. Barbs aren't the only guild with Tactics as a tert skill, or the only guild with an offensive skill that is tert, either.
Does that mean Tactics, and thus grappling, is useless and impossible in at-level PvP with most guilds in the game? No, if you know what you are doing while training and PvPing.
RCHIGHT
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/06/2016 12:13 PM CDT
Okay, if that is what was meant then I apologize. I agree with this. The pronoun was ambiguous and I thought it referred the other skills not other characters. We're all good an simpatico now.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
2DUMBARSE
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/06/2016 03:53 PM CDT
For whatever it's worth, I think there might be an argument for having a Tactics Form or adding Tactics to a current Form. Why would any warrior not try to develop a way of better utilizing combat tactics to his/her advantage?
RCHIGHT
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/06/2016 04:56 PM CDT
Good idea. I'd recommend...
Wolverine Form - +Tactics. Advancing speed bonus.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Wolverine Form - +Tactics. Advancing speed bonus.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/06/2016 07:37 PM CDT
I'd also like a tactic buff, though I'm not sure if tactics stuff is a binary.
SQUANTO
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/07/2016 05:43 AM CDT
Hmm. Assuming that the contests for tactical maneuvers is solely tactics vs defending, it'd be nice if when grappled, it's not all about tactics, since there is now contact, but perhaps an average of your tactics and your brawling for the offender and maybe something like evasion and defending for the defender. I can also definitely see a place for stat points modifying success for both the defender and the offender, just like how damage is modified by them, along with avoiding/minimizing damage. The stats that make sense in my mind are strength, reflex and agility. Something like this might create more evenness across guilds when grappled.
Damaging moves, when grappling, would still be dictated by the brawling skill.
The niche of just tactics could remain solely on non-grappling maneuvers, which definitely has a lot of uses.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
Damaging moves, when grappling, would still be dictated by the brawling skill.
The niche of just tactics could remain solely on non-grappling maneuvers, which definitely has a lot of uses.
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
RCHIGHT
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/07/2016 10:13 AM CDT
I'm following you Squanto. Here's what I'm thinking as it relates to Barbarians. Not sure how this would play out with other guilds but perhaps replace Expertise with Brawling skill for offense.
Tackle/Grapple
Offense : Tactics skill 70%/Expertise skill 30%/Power (Str/Stam/Disc)
Defense : Defending skill 70%/Brawling skill 30%/Fortitude (Stam/Disc/Str)
This would just be associated with these initial moves, not the damaging moves after success/failure.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Tackle/Grapple
Offense : Tactics skill 70%/Expertise skill 30%/Power (Str/Stam/Disc)
Defense : Defending skill 70%/Brawling skill 30%/Fortitude (Stam/Disc/Str)
This would just be associated with these initial moves, not the damaging moves after success/failure.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
DISCOTEQ21
Grappling and Damage
04/07/2016 10:59 AM CDT
I don't even care about grappling, when you can just manuever supplex hax break it.
Barbarians CC in general needs a look, the diminishing returns on Wail and Strike is absurd. Not to mention they function on the same timer.
Also we still need a way to break through with at least SOME damage in an evenly matched fight. Roar rage + Maneuver sort of makes a smidge of a difference, but not really. We really have no effective tools to up and generate damage.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Barbarians CC in general needs a look, the diminishing returns on Wail and Strike is absurd. Not to mention they function on the same timer.
Also we still need a way to break through with at least SOME damage in an evenly matched fight. Roar rage + Maneuver sort of makes a smidge of a difference, but not really. We really have no effective tools to up and generate damage.
Don't forget to vote for dragonrealms:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
2DUMBARSE
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/07/2016 01:47 PM CDT
>I don't even care about grappling, when you can just manuever supplex hax break it.
I didn't even know about that one. I just use a lie, stand, retreat macro which isn't technically hax.
I didn't even know about that one. I just use a lie, stand, retreat macro which isn't technically hax.
RCHIGHT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/07/2016 02:22 PM CDT
I agree that Suplex = Hax. However, both it and the grapple/tackle are issues in their own right. I'm going to be posting in the suggestions folder pretty soon about a thought I have. I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water, and all that.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
DR-KODIUS
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/15/2016 02:15 PM CDT
>>Barbarians CC in general needs a look, the diminishing returns on Wail and Strike is absurd. Not to mention they function on the same timer.
CC from all Guilds should be using the same Core diminishing return mechanics. Would you please list which ones are not?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
CC from all Guilds should be using the same Core diminishing return mechanics. Would you please list which ones are not?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/15/2016 02:15 PM CDT
>>I agree that Suplex = Hax.
What is wrong with Suplex?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
What is wrong with Suplex?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/15/2016 02:37 PM CDT
>>CC from all Guilds should be using the same Core diminishing return mechanics. Would you please list which ones are not?
It might be a result of normally casting my debils at minimum, but it's not like I felt casting VS over and over made critters less immobilized after a series of casts to keep them in place.
It's also possible that I was immobilizing them at the floor from the get-go so it couldn't get much more floor-y.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It might be a result of normally casting my debils at minimum, but it's not like I felt casting VS over and over made critters less immobilized after a series of casts to keep them in place.
It's also possible that I was immobilizing them at the floor from the get-go so it couldn't get much more floor-y.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/15/2016 02:39 PM CDT
The diminishing returns only affects players IIRC.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
RCHIGHT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/15/2016 04:36 PM CDT
>What is wrong with Suplex?
Automatic get out of jail... err... grapple free card.
You break a grapple no matter what even if outclassed.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Automatic get out of jail... err... grapple free card.
You break a grapple no matter what even if outclassed.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
DR-KODIUS
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/17/2016 02:34 PM CDT
Interesting and unintended side effect. Would it be better if the grapple was maintained afterwards?
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
THAYET
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/17/2016 02:38 PM CDT
If you're fixing the myriad stuff that breaks grapple without a skillcheck, take a look at FALL too?
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
RCHIGHT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/17/2016 03:34 PM CDT
>Interesting and unintended side effect. Would it be better if the grapple was maintained afterwards?
It should, as Thayet posted, do a skill check to see if grapple should be broken or not.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
It should, as Thayet posted, do a skill check to see if grapple should be broken or not.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/17/2016 03:42 PM CDT
>>It should, as Thayet posted, do a skill check to see if grapple should be broken or not.
At the same time, I liked trying to use suplex as a way to make a melee mob prone, and doing this would mean I'm grappled and kneeling and have to break the grapple I started.
I also noticed that mobs I suplex tend to stand up almost immediately.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
At the same time, I liked trying to use suplex as a way to make a melee mob prone, and doing this would mean I'm grappled and kneeling and have to break the grapple I started.
I also noticed that mobs I suplex tend to stand up almost immediately.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
RCHIGHT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/17/2016 06:23 PM CDT
>I also noticed that mobs I suplex tend to stand up almost immediately.
This is true for SHOVE as well.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
This is true for SHOVE as well.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/17/2016 08:29 PM CDT
>>This is true for SHOVE as well.
Agreed, but normally I just immobilize those. Having immobilization last while the maneuver waits to trigger is a bit harder.
Definitely would like being shoved to make someone suffer a bit before getting back up (and a way to knock someone down at melee intentionally), though.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Agreed, but normally I just immobilize those. Having immobilization last while the maneuver waits to trigger is a bit harder.
Definitely would like being shoved to make someone suffer a bit before getting back up (and a way to knock someone down at melee intentionally), though.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
RCHIGHT
Re: Grappling and Damage
04/17/2016 08:46 PM CDT
Agreed but I know that PVE is different than PVP in regards to balance.
Great if you are on the giving end but bad on the receiving. I don't mind it with PVE so much as the balance is still bad even though they stand up fast. Haven't played around much with grapple/suplex much in PVE though.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Great if you are on the giving end but bad on the receiving. I don't mind it with PVE so much as the balance is still bad even though they stand up fast. Haven't played around much with grapple/suplex much in PVE though.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
GORTEOUS
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/26/2016 10:31 PM CDT
>> Does that mean Tactics, and thus grappling, is useless and impossible in at-level PvP with most guilds in the game? No, if you know what you are doing while training and PvPing.
I would go so far as to say that Tactics, at-level, as a lore tert guild without a buff, is basically useless. Like virtually every other 3.x system I can think of, it has major problems with scaling.
It should be monumentally easier to employ non-physical tactical maneuvers(bobbing, weaving, analyze, etc..) than it is to employ physical ones(grappling, the actual combos for analyze). In the case of non-physical ones, there is simply no reason for them to sit on the same skill-to-effectiveness ladder as weapons.
If they sit on that same ladder, why would someone bother wasting the time trying to get them to land when they can instead opt for the more effective choice, and simply smash their foes over the head with a weapon(or backstab, magic, or whatever)?
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I would go so far as to say that Tactics, at-level, as a lore tert guild without a buff, is basically useless. Like virtually every other 3.x system I can think of, it has major problems with scaling.
It should be monumentally easier to employ non-physical tactical maneuvers(bobbing, weaving, analyze, etc..) than it is to employ physical ones(grappling, the actual combos for analyze). In the case of non-physical ones, there is simply no reason for them to sit on the same skill-to-effectiveness ladder as weapons.
If they sit on that same ladder, why would someone bother wasting the time trying to get them to land when they can instead opt for the more effective choice, and simply smash their foes over the head with a weapon(or backstab, magic, or whatever)?
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
GORTEOUS
Re: Brawling and Grappling
04/26/2016 10:36 PM CDT
To be clear, I'm not advocating a Tactics buff for Barbs - I don't believe in band-aid solutions, and besides that, it wouldn't be a very good band-aid since most of the skill would still be (practically) useless.
I would instead opt for what I outlined above - Tactics is not a weapon and shouldn't be treated like one.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I would instead opt for what I outlined above - Tactics is not a weapon and shouldn't be treated like one.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
