Rolled up a barb, got him to 35th circle, everything is great, except for the sheer lack of buffing ability. I set up triggers and a window to make sure I wasn't just feeling like buffs were super short lived, they are. It's very very painful as a barb. I can keep up one form and use roars to get debil moving, anything more than that and forms drop off fairly quickly. Here's an excerpt from my barb window:

Fresh into combat after being out with no forms/zerks up for a while...
[04:19] MONKEY Started.
[04:19] PIRANHA Started.
[04:24] PIRANHA Ended
[04:24] PIRANHA Started.
[04:26] MONKEY Ended
[04:27] MONKEY Started.
[04:27] PIRANHA Ended
[04:28] PIRANHA Started.
[04:28] MONKEY Ended
[04:29] MONKEY Started.
[04:31] MONKEY Ended
[04:32] PIRANHA Ended
[04:32] MONKEY Started.
[04:32] PIRANHA Started.
[04:34] MONKEY Ended
[04:34] PIRANHA Ended
[04:34] MONKEY Started.
[04:34] PIRANHA Started.
[04:37] PIRANHA Ended
[04:38] PIRANHA Started.
[04:40] PIRANHA Ended
[04:40] MONKEY Ended

Inner Fire: 202 54% enthralled (32/34)
Augmentation: 196 88% intrigued (16/34)
Debilitation: 196 59% analyzing (18/34)
Warding: 194 96% understanding (14/34)

Now I realize these are still fairly low skills, but compared to every other guild (that has buffs, sorry traders!), we are so extremely limited in what we can use. I think I remember Kodius saying a year or two ago about how magic feats were so cheap because MU's NEED them... looks to me like barbs NEED the masteries. Any way the costs can be looked at, either form IF costs or even lowering the mastery costs for like tribalist and whatever the berserk one is so they're attainable a bit earlier? I mean seriously my "magic" skills are pretty far ahead of circle reqs so I should be able to do more than one buff and debilitate stuff.

Considering we don't even reap the benefits of our buffs for a solid minute after starting them and they're dropping 5 minutes or less after that, feels pretty harsh. Heck, even if we could get a small bit of IF from successful hits instead of JUST from the killing blow it would help tremendously.

Do you have Meditate Power? I'd be curious to see a test out of combat where you get to full IF, kick off one Monkey and Meditate Power. Then wait a minute then Meditate Power. Then wait three minutes and Meditate Power again, posting the results.

Then test out of combat where you do the same thing but kicking off Monkey and Piranha then follow the same pattern. You appear to me to have enough skill to keep one form going full time without losing much if any IF but the second shouldn't drain you that fast even with a moderate pulsing cost on both.

This does seem wonky to me especially if you are hunting and killing to regain some IF per kill. Have you tried using Analyze Flame as well?

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

It looks like that time your Monkey lasted 63 minutes which at your level and skills is the full time. So, it didn't drop due to IF tanking. Throwing in the second form will show whether you are burning more IF than you are replenishing, which it appears you are. How fast you tank IF though is what concerned me with your initial post. It shouldn't happen that fast with two forms based on your data. Also, roars don't drain IF at all so don't worry about roaring to figure out what's going on.

Also, are you using any meditations? They have an initial cost to put up but no maintenance IF cost. If so, you might want to start them before you start a form (meditations will drop your IF with start up cost and then forms will lower your regen max which should equal out to a full bar or close to the "new" max regen limit).

If you aren't using meditations then I'd recommend you get tenacity and contemplation as fast as you can. Contemplation is an awesome buff for defenses because it increases armor skill which directly reduces damage taken and Tenacity is a great ward because when you take a hit you'll not get any physical wounds (for the most part).

Since they don't have a maintenance cost to maintain they won't drop if you tank your IF and you won't be left hanging defenseless especially if you are pushing overhunting. If you never get Yogi then when you have a lull in hunting (no critters) check if they are up and kneel then put them back up then giving priority to Contemplation over Tenacity since it gives a bonus to Augmentation skill as well (Monkey/Pirahna time will increase with this bonus)

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Forgot the forum formatting messes up the IF bar when we cut/paste it, also that was all out of combat, just standing there in town.
And again, here's the magics:


Inner Fire: 204 79%
Augmentation: 199 00%
Debilitation: 198 72%
Warding: 197 15%

Should be able to keep up two buffs easily, but since the Barb guild was written and follows it's own set of rules one buff it is. That really needs looked at and tweaked, masteries are clearly a must have for barbs to be able to use their toolbox at all, 4 slots for a mastery is ridiculous for something we need.

>Barbs are basically 'Traders + a buff or two' in terms of 'how they fight' for a long time.

Could you explain that a bit more for me? Even a level 20 barb should be able to use a couple of roars, and then a berserk+form, possibly a meditation too, which is not terrible. It's not 'throw up 400 spells' like mages, mind, but not really trader style hunting either.

I play a thief, so I get the frustration, since thieves don't have the IF thing but do have concentration walls, and the 'sit to start' abilities, depending on skill.

I understand that Elanthipedia says that roars use IF (though I'd never read the Roar page before), however after testing I don't believe that is the case anymore.

I can keep three forms and one berserk going full time without losing any IF (I gain IF without the berserk up).
IF skill: 664
Relevant Masteries: Powermonger, Titan
Tests:
1.) At full IF, roar multiple times in a row switching between targets (four at melee) then check Power. Still at full IF.
2.) Purposely tank IF with five forms and five berserks up. Once tanked (two forms/four berserks dropping) roar as many times as possible between targets. All four roars went off successfully.
3.) Purposely tank IF with five forms and five berserks up. Once tanked (two forms/four berserks dropping) roar quiet. Roar went off successfully against all four targets.

I have never ever seen the message "Strain though you might, you cannot muster enough inner fire to vocalize your fighting spirit" since I came back after 3.0 was released. Based on what I've read (except the Barb Roars page) on Elanthipedia and in these forums Roars operate on a different system, Voice, than our abilities, IF.

Maybe, behind the scenes, they do use a tad bit of IF so that IF is trained when you roar but based on my playing and testing I've never experience roars draining IF at all, even insignificantly.

I'd be curious if any others can/would test roars to see if at lower circles IF is drained or the messaging when you can't roar reflects IF is involved.

Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!

Same result with 4 mobs engaged, looks like no drop in IF roaring 5 times in a row using roar quiet.

So bottom line, 2 forms is impossible to keep up with ~200 magics at circle 35, without spamming analyze flame as the only means to attack. That's bad for a guild, it really is, so I'll ask a question again, can we get either IF usage looked at or the prerequisites and slot costs for masteries dealing with IF usage checked out?