>RT's shouldn't be set for specific weapon times. If I can swing a 102 stone greatsword with minimum RT, I shouldn't have the same RT on whirlwind as a gnome with 15 str. Just saying.
Why not? I'm just curious what your justification for this position is besides "I have higher strength, I want my advantage from it intact."

Strictly speaking, I imagine it would take everyone the same amount of time to whirlwind since there's essentially only one way to do it and the weapon being heavy doesn't hurt centrifugal force.

Not every skill roundtime has to be based on stats or skills of a character. Everyone loads a bow with the same roundtime, regardless of stats or skill. The benefits you get with high strength on a whirlwind should be factored into the damage side of things.

<<Not every skill roundtime has to be based on stats or skills of a character.>>

That's not really a great argument against a change, honestly. I could just point out that not every skill roundtime has to be fixed and we're back to square one.

Whirlwind could use some stat or skill-based RT reductions if only because the defensive penalty is so large that having to sit through six seconds of it is suicidal in most cases where the ability is intended to be used (read: surrounded by critters).

That said, I don't think that merely reducing the RT would allow it to break out of its very limited niche.

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Veralika: "dunt start Fly ya know all ya need is ask who yer mom "

Veralika says, "'att only dun work challenge and was att att like normal hunts."

Veralika says, "I bbad at this."

If anything I'd rather see Whirlwind lose the defensive penalty from last maneuver. The combination of how it unbalances and the 6 sec RT would be enough to keep anyone from abusing it.

It's too restricting. 6 secs of a penalty from last maneuver makes it almost unusable outside of regular hunting. It's a problem when trying to break out of webs.

Someone/something webs me. I whirlwind (fail to break web). I'm stuck with Whirlwind as my last maneuver despite not breaking free.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>Are you expecting it to be an ideal maneuver in PvP against a single opponent?

I'm expecting it to be a decent choice when trying to break out of a web (right now it really isn't). I'm also expecting it to be a decent choice when trying to hit a hidden target at melee or pole.

>>A defensive penalty makes sense when you consider the fact that you're spinning around while in RT. Hard to parry when your back is turned.

We really don't want to get into what makes sense, or we could have fun dismantling many abilities/spells in this game.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>Strictly speaking, I imagine it would take everyone the same amount of time to whirlwind since there's essentially only one way to do it and the weapon being heavy doesn't hurt centrifugal force.

This

>>I'd argue it's more agility than strength to spin around. If you aren't agile, strength or not, you're going to fall flat on your face. I know you trained strength pretty high but it's not the only thing factored into swing times.

and This.

If you ever actually swung a heavy two-handed weapon(like lets say a spanish claymore that almost six feet in length). You'd realize that despite how heavy it is, it swings just as quickly as a lighter weapon. Problem isn't how fast it swings, its stopping the swing. They also tend to pull you into their swings, which means they would do a move like whirlwind easier.

This is actually a bad thing when fighting as you never "full swing". You don't swing a sword like a baseball bat, doing so breaks your guard and upsets your balance. Greater strength wouldn't make you move quicker but it would make you recover your balance from such a move faster.


_______________________

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-Tsukiko OOTS

>Uh, it takes a lot more force/strength/energy to swing something heavier. I don't know what pseudo-physics you're using to dispute this.

It's not exactly that simple. When you consider that the energy can be applied in different ways, a lot at once or a little bit over time (leverage), or something in between. There's also differences in how the weapon is balanced and weighted.

Since most heavier weapons tend to rely on leverage more and difference balance points, this is not necessarily so simple in practice.

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>If you're applying a little bit of force over time, that slow "wind-up" would be part of the RT.

Agreed, up to a point. The other advantage leverage has is that it also has a higher maximum speed, which is a variable that could actually reduce the total RT. This is the problem with trying to be too realistic. Forget it.

It's probably going to be more sucessful to argue whether it's fair or not and forget the physics.

Wait, did I just write that?

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Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

Agreed for a round time decrease based on str/agil/refl. Could be something like crossbow rt decreases, with set ranks and stat requirements.

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Battle Lord Wartug Skullcleaver
Gor'Tog Barbarian

"You live and die by the only thing you can control: your choices. Choose wisely."

>>If you ever actually swung....

Once this conversation started stepping into reality it became a pointless discussion concerning barbarians text attack whirlwind.


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>So just to be clear, whirlwind must have static RT because we can't model the physics well enough for your liking?

Not really. More that without being able to see the exact biomechanical actions that go into a whirlwind attack, physics can be used to support either arguement. So it's probably time (long past time?) to ignore them and argue based on what's "good for the game."

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Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Blunts for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares

>So it's probably time (long past time?) to ignore them and argue based on what's "good for the game."

This.

It's much more productive to discuss game mechanics without proving who's the better computer chair swordsman or armchair physicist.

Whirlwind is fine as it is. Reducing the roundtime to 3 seconds effectively increases your damage output by two against every possible target. This makes Barbarians able to AoE often and easily with vastly higher damage capacity than they currently have. I understand AoE is not the intent of the guild. It's a very specialized maneuver, which is fine. A more useful discussion is "What other niche can we have a maneuver for" than "change whirlwind from the clear-out niche to the AoE niche."

>>"change whirlwind from the clear-out niche to the AoE niche."

?? what


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<<I know several Barbarians who swear by Whirlwind as a way to lock weapons fast. How is it crap?>>

The damage is crap compared to a regular attack, the exp gain is not. Don't confuse the two.

Think of it this way, with four critters at melee I can spend 5-6 seconds on 2 regular attacks, or whirlwind for 4-8 attacks. Even if all those attacks are deflected, it's still going to bring in more experience.

Just think of it as a poor man's CL.

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This isn't HuggleFurSnuggleKissySmoochRealms.

>>I'd love a crappy attack like that.

I'll trade it to you for the ability to moongate.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

>>I'd love a crappy attack like that.

Oh Copernicus, you're forgetting the primary rule:

If it isn't overpowered, it's crap.

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-Armifer de Dragonrealms

Vashir I agree with the, this ability doesn't suck, but this change won't make it OP, it just would be a useful weapon in the arsenal of weapons that barbarians SHOULD have.


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Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

<<You just want an RT reduction.>>

...

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This isn't HuggleFurSnuggleKissySmoochRealms.

>I stand by my assertion that whirlwind's damage potential per hit is lower than that of a normal attack, and that an RT reduction would not somehow turn Barbarians into an AoE powerhouse.

I'd argue against the first part, and I agree with the second part. I don't think ME or LE whirling needs a roundtime reduction, though.