Seeing as charisma has always been the red headed step child of stats I was wondering if the influence of it to power roars has diminished since the implementation of debilitation?

http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Magic_3.0


Charisma is listed as the primary attribute used in fear based contests, which are what roars fall in under. Its not that charisma is devalued, its just that a raw attribute contest went to a modified skill/attribute contest (similar to how agility helps your offense score, but in conjunction with your actual weapon ranks).

I'm not sure how voice falls into it. I presume it replaces 'mana' in the spell contest and was your voice pool diminishes so does the amount of 'mana' being thrown into the contest.

>>Debilitation is akin to TM, yes? As in, 200 ranks of debilitation means I should have a hard time affecting a critter that requires 500 ranks of combats to work with.

It's learning model is similar to TM in that to train it you need a critter of appropriate difficulty to your debilitation ranks, but it's scaling of success/failure is quite different. With 70 charisma and about 300 debilitation I've never actually failed a roar in PvE, even though I'm fighting critters with twice that many combat ranks.

We can't "put more mana into it" so the two aren't really comparable. In fact, the inverse of your statement is true: since it's tertiary compared to our other combats, it will always be easy to train.

>>In fact, the inverse of your statement is true: since it's tertiary compared to our other combats, it will always be easy to train.

This is correct. Its fairly easy as long as you work on your debil that you should be able to keep it in line to hit creatures your level. In general striking something with a debil effect seems easier than hitting it with a TM attack (testing vs the big celpeze in ratha, I can stun them with a smite foe with about 40 less ranks of debil than my TM, but cant strike them with a high mana/full target FST). TM goes through the combat model (and feels more like a weapon in terms of the training) where Debils contest in general seems a bit more binary (and easier) for PvE training.

I'm curious as to how voice pool and roar power work together. I wonder if your at full power until your out of voice or if it starts very high and scales down (i.e is it 100% until you cant roar, or does it start at say, 120% and then goes down there in terms of potency).

With slightly less than 400 Debilitation I'm able to easily affect assassins and intercessors with my roars. You're not in any danger of your hunting outgrowing your Debilitation, at least as long as you put the slightest effort into training it as your character grows. If I had been able to train Debilitation through my character's whole lifespan he would have many more ranks by now.

I will add the caveat that my stats heavily favor Fear contests, but I honestly don't think it's having a large enough effect that lower Fear stats would skew the results.

---

Ogdaro
"Take chances and see what you can get away with, it only costs you a favor or two if you mess up." -Issus

>> Charisma's still the godstat for roars. I wouldn't worry too much about getting it super high unless you plan on PvPing a lot, though don't neglect it too heavily.

TBH I don't see too much of a difference between Charisma and Strength for roaring. Unless Charisma acts as a multiplier, I don't see how its much more beneficial than Strength. Haven't actually played around with changing stats, my data is strictly from comparing Bear to Cyclone.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>>TBH I don't see too much of a difference between Charisma and Strength for roaring. Unless Charisma acts as a multiplier, I don't see how its much more beneficial than Strength. Haven't actually played around with changing stats, my data is strictly from comparing Bear to Cyclone.

Roar success is so easy that you probably won't see any difference at high levels of skill. It's much easier to see the difference with a noob barbarian.

Assuming fear isn't any different than the other stat contests, however, the success modifier for the primary stat (in this case, charisma) is probably 2-3x greater than for the secondary stat (strength in this case). So, if we're discussing how to power roar, charisma's still the obvious choice, though there is something to be said for the additional benefits of strength outside of roar power.

>>When I tested WAIL against Leilond's FEAR barrier, it shattered in 1 with Cyclone. Think it was 2 with Bear. Without either of them, took a lot - like 7-10.

That sounds about right.

Whats at level for you? Just curious.

I know I cant for instant stun elder gryphons with a debilitation spell with debil ranks just a little south of yours, so there seems to be a debilitation VS some other skill contests going on (I can stun mature gryphons just fine).

After chatting with folks about how debil effects work, what you are doing makes sense. It more a modified stat contest, so if you got awesome stats (you do) then the amplification from skill is not necessary to succeed.

>>I never thought the debilitation skill actually affected the stat contests. IIRC, it only determines how adept one is with the usage of their own abilities.

It should modify the stat contests, if indirectly, in the sense that the stat contest and your debilitation ranks combine to form a debilitation "offensive force."

>>Is that just a barb thing since you don't have mana? I've never heard of that either. My understanding, from a MU perspective, is that debil skill allows you to put more mana into your spell (this indirectly making it more powerful) and allows you to cast faster, but that's it. Assuming one person has 400 debil and second person has 700 and they cast the same spell at the same prep time with the same stats, they should see identical results.

That is essentially my understanding of it, that more debilitation ranks automatically put "more mana" into the roar. If they don't then it's just a stat contest and what's the point?

>>I'm just guessing, but I think your voice pool contributes the 'mana' which dries up as you repeat roar, but I could be super wrong.

Not sure if voice pool is a good analogy for mana, you don't get a power penalty for casting a spell at lower mana.

>>Not sure if voice pool is a good analogy for mana, you don't get a power penalty for casting a spell at lower mana.

You do with things like TM (more mana=bigger effect).

With debils, I certainly stun better with more mana in the spell with smite foe, so it certainly adjusts more than the TO HIT. I guess it depends what you consider a 'penalty'. I imagine anything less than your full potency might be considered a penalty(?). I'm not saying they share a model but there seems to be a general parallel that when i have lots of mana I can cast at full power, and get awesome effects, as my pool lessens I have to reduce my mana (or stop casting) so I generally get less impressive effects.

My assumption as to voice replacing mana in the contest is because I feel that makes the most sense (since spells have three parts on offense (skill, stats, mana)). Otherwise Kodius had to bring in another element or modify skill or stats to compensate for the factor that mana plays in debilitation contests with spells.

Its an interesting discussion. Short of Kodius telling us though not sure its really provable in any sense so its all theory craft.

>>You do with things like TM (more mana=bigger effect).

>>Uh, what? Every spell is less powerful with less mana. That's the whole point of mana. Until you cap the spell's potency, you are receiving a power penalty for casting a spell at lower mana.

Poor choice of words.

You don't get a penalty for casting a spell with lower mana POOL, i.e. you don't get a penalty for casting a 20-mana Fireball when you have 30% attunement vs. casting a 20-mana Fireball at 70% attunement. That is what I meant, as that is how voice pool functions for roars (in theory, I'm not sure it's functioning properly at the moment).

>> So in terms of actually affecting things, they work identically. In terms of max duration, roars currently have an edge, but I hope to resolve that soon.

From what I've seen, roars are being beaten out in duration by that bardic immobilizer.

A thin wisp of breeze sails past, tickling your ear and chilling it with a momentary arctic touch. It is followed by another, and another... until they build into the fierce winds of a gale! Your voice is drowned out by the vicious barrage, leaving little room for coherent thought amidst the ceaseless onslaught...
You fall down, cowering fearfully.

w/e it's called.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

Well it felt like a 45 second stun(sorry, not an immobilization) which imo was kinda long :-/ This was after it was weakened by Turtle.

>> Single pulse effect only.

What do you mean exactly? It seemed like a spell, not a cyclic.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

>From what I've seen, roars are being beaten out in duration by that bardic immobilizer.

I think that spell has roughly 20-30 seconds duration, and I'm landing max success against you with capped spells.

We should test again to see what a Barbarian using a roar mask, Cyclone, Bear and xxx can do. I think even with a capped Redeemer's Pride, you were shattering that Fear/Will barrier entirely from full strength and still managing something like a minute or longer duration with Wail.

Now I'm not sure if that was because Voice levels were still funky, and also, are the Charisma and Strength bonuses from Cyclone/Bear capped at the same In Sphere bonus as spells? Regardless, I -think- you have mid 80's for the relevant stats when we did the test. I had 100 and over for the relevant defending stats, and a capped barrier, so if anything I'm thinking things are a bit too generous on your end in terms of success and duration :P

~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg

I am routinely getting immobilization of several minutes using unbuffed Wail. If I throw in a roar helm and Cyclone I can immobilize critters for 4+ minutes.

>>Are you using roar quiet? It might be breaking somewhere. I've never seen a normal roar against a player go over 30 seconds. My quiet anger/embrace in inters seems to only last for 15-20 seconds, but they're pretty high up on the SvS chain. Maybe its not checking cap?

Yes, roar quiet. I haven't tried roaring a player since test instance closed, it might very well be a bug with roar quiet.