So I tested this form, and I just counted seconds in my head so just estimations here.
But it appears to save you 1 second of advance time. So instead of like ~9 seconds it's ~8 seconds.
Is there any reason not to make it work better?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
MARTINCOTY77
RANDDOMNESS
Re: Wolverine
04/13/2013 10:25 PM CDT
I remember reading an old post by some gm that stated the whole entire engagement system needs an over-haul. For starters, (mentioned as an aside) to make melee weapons more viable for pvp, and to make snap auto-retreats less OP. They seem to have very briefly touched upon the auto-retreats, but I'm guessing it'll be awhile to see any improvement w/ regard to engagement ALL-around issues.
Also - should probably use a bit more precise of a tool than counting in your head if you're timing something and noticing a 1 sec difference outta 9 heh.
I'm curious why this bugs ya though, you killing stuff so often that you're engaging so quickly that it's noticeably affecting you? Please tell us your secrets, I certainly feel like I'm doing things wrong post-3.0
Don't make accounts while under the influence - it may lead to ridiculous spelling errors.
Also - should probably use a bit more precise of a tool than counting in your head if you're timing something and noticing a 1 sec difference outta 9 heh.
I'm curious why this bugs ya though, you killing stuff so often that you're engaging so quickly that it's noticeably affecting you? Please tell us your secrets, I certainly feel like I'm doing things wrong post-3.0
Don't make accounts while under the influence - it may lead to ridiculous spelling errors.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 03:39 AM CDT
>>I'm curious why this bugs ya though, you killing stuff so often that you're engaging so quickly that it's noticeably affecting you? Please tell us your secrets, I certainly feel like I'm doing things wrong post-3.0
I assume his primary complaint derives from PvP viability. With teleport-retreating and abilities like WD that auto-teleport to missile range, one second faster advance doesn't seem very beneficial.
Given proper IF cost, skillcheck, cooldown, RT or what-have you, I am surprised no teleport-to-melee ability has yet been designed. Barbs seems the obvious choice IMO.
I assume his primary complaint derives from PvP viability. With teleport-retreating and abilities like WD that auto-teleport to missile range, one second faster advance doesn't seem very beneficial.
Given proper IF cost, skillcheck, cooldown, RT or what-have you, I am surprised no teleport-to-melee ability has yet been designed. Barbs seems the obvious choice IMO.
RAIST
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 02:37 PM CDT
>Given proper IF cost, skillcheck, cooldown, RT or what-have you, I am surprised no teleport-to-melee ability has yet been designed. Barbs seems the obvious choice IMO.
It's been asked for before, and we received the polite version of "oh HELL no!"
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
It's been asked for before, and we received the polite version of "oh HELL no!"
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 03:47 PM CDT
Ok - I did a more formal test with a timer, advancing on ranged critters that do not advance so it was easier to gauge.
With wolverine, all advances were in seconds: 7 < advance time < 9
Without wolverine advances were in seconds: 10 < advance time < 12
When swan dance added a boost to advance time it added and instant jump to pole (3 second RT) and then normal advance from pole to melee. Which was a much faster advance time and what I expected wolverine to be when I picked it up. Every second counts of course and I am not saying it's useless, just that I expected more.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 05:46 PM CDT
>>It's been asked for before, and we received the polite version of "oh HELL no!"
I know. I think it's time to revisit the idea though, especially now that engagements last much longer, and getting in a shot or two before they become unstunned isn't that big a deal. I simply cannot understand how, with ranged already/still so dominant, abilities like WD or knockback effects like RoS would be allowed, but melee equivalents are conceptually treated as game-breaking.
That seems to ignore the realities of a combat system with teleport-retreating. Even assuming a system like Kodius' proposed engagement rewrite (complete with ranged/pole hangback and retreating that takes time) and also assuming it was well-balanced, limited or balanced instant-melee abilities would enrich PvP by making engagement a dynamic chase, and add value to avoidance-abilities that are currently neglected (for the most part) because of the lack of need.
I know. I think it's time to revisit the idea though, especially now that engagements last much longer, and getting in a shot or two before they become unstunned isn't that big a deal. I simply cannot understand how, with ranged already/still so dominant, abilities like WD or knockback effects like RoS would be allowed, but melee equivalents are conceptually treated as game-breaking.
That seems to ignore the realities of a combat system with teleport-retreating. Even assuming a system like Kodius' proposed engagement rewrite (complete with ranged/pole hangback and retreating that takes time) and also assuming it was well-balanced, limited or balanced instant-melee abilities would enrich PvP by making engagement a dynamic chase, and add value to avoidance-abilities that are currently neglected (for the most part) because of the lack of need.
COVERG
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 07:06 PM CDT
I have always believed that advance should be as fast as retreat. Fix one or the other!
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
______
Kertig Heart Magdar Bluefletch, Forging Guru of M'Riss
HEITAK
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 09:48 PM CDT
Really advance should be faster, unless they turn tail and run lol.
JARAGONA
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 10:13 PM CDT
>>I have always believed that advance should be as fast as retreat. Fix one or the other!
^^ Word.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
^^ Word.
"If swords ever cross, the Barbarian shall be the one left standing." - Guild Leader Agonar
SPIRITFLARE
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 10:22 PM CDT
@DiminishedAngel + anyone else with illusions as to the ACTUAL functionality of Whole Displacement
Please refer yourselves to the Moonmage Folder, General Discussions and check the last page or so if you intend to point to WD as a flagbearer in your crusade for a "teleports to melee" type function. Clearly either A) - You actually have no idea what restrictions/functions are practically disabled by an active WD OR B) - You are intentionally not mentioning the downsides so as to misrepresent the spell as some sort of justification for what you want. If in all honesty you are simply unaware as to what limitations are placed on Whole Displacement, allow me to enlighten you.
While WD is active you cannot:
use targeted magic - targeting is interrupted/cancelled on a teleport
use aim-able ranged weaponry - aim is interrupted/cancelled on teleport
use melee - quite obviously you are no longer at melee on teleport
WD is good for exactly TWO things, 1 - looking spiffy when moving room to room via teleporting and 2 - running, as in getting to missile range and LEAVING combat. WD with the intent to stay in combat only buys some time while you really can't accomplish very much at all aggressively. Surely someone will say, "But you can use debilitation!" Well guess what, diminishing returns says hi in addition to you STILL arent accomplishing aggression. Debilitation via stuns will allow you to get some spells off whether you have WD up or not, better if not so when someone gets out of the stun your spell can actually finish targeting rather than getting interrupted at the last moment by an advancing opponent. If you want to combat WD, use ranged or pole weaponry of your own while deteriorating WD via advancing. WD, in and of itself, is not justification for its opposite ignoring the restrictions that are in fact BUILT INTO THE SPELL.
In true mirror fashion, what manner of melee teleport would be useful if it disabled your ability to melee? And if it doesnt have some similar drawback, how can you keep a straight face while pointing out a spell that basically does this for RANGED combat. That is all.
Please refer yourselves to the Moonmage Folder, General Discussions and check the last page or so if you intend to point to WD as a flagbearer in your crusade for a "teleports to melee" type function. Clearly either A) - You actually have no idea what restrictions/functions are practically disabled by an active WD OR B) - You are intentionally not mentioning the downsides so as to misrepresent the spell as some sort of justification for what you want. If in all honesty you are simply unaware as to what limitations are placed on Whole Displacement, allow me to enlighten you.
While WD is active you cannot:
use targeted magic - targeting is interrupted/cancelled on a teleport
use aim-able ranged weaponry - aim is interrupted/cancelled on teleport
use melee - quite obviously you are no longer at melee on teleport
WD is good for exactly TWO things, 1 - looking spiffy when moving room to room via teleporting and 2 - running, as in getting to missile range and LEAVING combat. WD with the intent to stay in combat only buys some time while you really can't accomplish very much at all aggressively. Surely someone will say, "But you can use debilitation!" Well guess what, diminishing returns says hi in addition to you STILL arent accomplishing aggression. Debilitation via stuns will allow you to get some spells off whether you have WD up or not, better if not so when someone gets out of the stun your spell can actually finish targeting rather than getting interrupted at the last moment by an advancing opponent. If you want to combat WD, use ranged or pole weaponry of your own while deteriorating WD via advancing. WD, in and of itself, is not justification for its opposite ignoring the restrictions that are in fact BUILT INTO THE SPELL.
In true mirror fashion, what manner of melee teleport would be useful if it disabled your ability to melee? And if it doesnt have some similar drawback, how can you keep a straight face while pointing out a spell that basically does this for RANGED combat. That is all.
VEE-REX
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 10:52 PM CDT
Now you're in our folders.
>>use targeted magic - targeting is interrupted/cancelled on a teleport
False. You can use TM, you just cannot get the target/aim bonus.
>>use aim-able ranged weaponry - aim is interrupted/cancelled on teleport
False. You can use aim-able ranged, you just cannot get the target/aim bonus.
>>use melee - quite obviously you are no longer at melee on teleport
Anyone spamming retreat cannot use melee either. This is not a good point from you at all.
Quite honestly, the targeting/aiming interruption is better than the stacking penalty imposed by retreating. People (or shall I say players of MMs) bring it up constantly while failing to realize that the penalty to ranged/melee from retreating is worse.
This is a list of what WD does:
1. Virtually eliminates melee as an option unless the aggressor outclasses the MM by hundreds and hundreds of ranks.
2. Unaffected by stuns.
3. Unaffected by immobilization.
4. Bypasses the stacking ranged/melee penalty associated with using 'retreat', and instead imposes a relatively meager penalty by not allowing the MM to target/aim.
5. The decay is easily offset by a 'refreshment' if there's any delay to the attacker's advancing. Meaning, after one attack, after one disabler by the MM, after one hesitation, the decay resets and no longer decays until the next round.
6. Has a long duration of 10 minutes when capped.
7. Does not affect thrown weapons - a HT trained MM can reap all the benefits of WD with no penalty whatsoever and still has virtual immunity from melee. Too bad aimables were so hax in 2.0 that most MMs didn't bother with thrown.
8. Unaffected by stealth advancing.
These 'restrictions' are being blown out of proportion for a spell that goes against design decisions to make melee more practical in PvP.
Bring up ROS or other 'anti-melee' spells all you want, but WD is OP. It does much more than just let someone run and can be used extremely effectively in spars and PvP. I've seen it happen more than once.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
>>use targeted magic - targeting is interrupted/cancelled on a teleport
False. You can use TM, you just cannot get the target/aim bonus.
>>use aim-able ranged weaponry - aim is interrupted/cancelled on teleport
False. You can use aim-able ranged, you just cannot get the target/aim bonus.
>>use melee - quite obviously you are no longer at melee on teleport
Anyone spamming retreat cannot use melee either. This is not a good point from you at all.
Quite honestly, the targeting/aiming interruption is better than the stacking penalty imposed by retreating. People (or shall I say players of MMs) bring it up constantly while failing to realize that the penalty to ranged/melee from retreating is worse.
This is a list of what WD does:
1. Virtually eliminates melee as an option unless the aggressor outclasses the MM by hundreds and hundreds of ranks.
2. Unaffected by stuns.
3. Unaffected by immobilization.
4. Bypasses the stacking ranged/melee penalty associated with using 'retreat', and instead imposes a relatively meager penalty by not allowing the MM to target/aim.
5. The decay is easily offset by a 'refreshment' if there's any delay to the attacker's advancing. Meaning, after one attack, after one disabler by the MM, after one hesitation, the decay resets and no longer decays until the next round.
6. Has a long duration of 10 minutes when capped.
7. Does not affect thrown weapons - a HT trained MM can reap all the benefits of WD with no penalty whatsoever and still has virtual immunity from melee. Too bad aimables were so hax in 2.0 that most MMs didn't bother with thrown.
8. Unaffected by stealth advancing.
These 'restrictions' are being blown out of proportion for a spell that goes against design decisions to make melee more practical in PvP.
Bring up ROS or other 'anti-melee' spells all you want, but WD is OP. It does much more than just let someone run and can be used extremely effectively in spars and PvP. I've seen it happen more than once.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
SPIRITFLARE
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 11:04 PM CDT
And you are being obtuse in your own folder. No aim/target means you arent going to hit an at-level opponent. If you get taken down by tm that cannot be targetted or bows that cannot be aimed your defenses are NOT at level with your opponent. Argue that till you are blue in the face and try to prove it otherwise.
#1 is an out-n-out lie, the only thing required to beat WD is advancing, circle 1 to 200 can do that, it deteriorates quickly
#4 is ridiculous. Removal of target/aim is not a "meager" penalty, its practical removal of all function. Against an at level opponent, you will miss half the time WITH full aim/target. Removal of aim/target is practical removal of that facet of combat as a whole UNLESS you so far outclass your opponent in which case your point is entirely MOOT.
#5 also a lie. There is no "refresh" - you have to recast
#6 That duration is assuming zero decay - WD after it starts taking 30+ seconds to kick in is equal to absolutely nothing.
Your entire post is full of blatant ignorance and misdirection and you should be ashamed of writing it, given your reputation. The ONLY valid point in the entirety of it is that a MM could bypass the ranged penalty by using thrown weaponry. So in exchange for neutering all other missile options, you are left with thrown. End of story.
TLDR - assuming equal offenses and defenses, removal of target from tm and aim from ranged leaves absolutely zero functionality, that is NOT meager. About half the time in at level pvp right now is consumed by MISSES on either side. And thats WITH aim/targeting for the ranged options. And YOU have done enough pvp to know this.
#1 is an out-n-out lie, the only thing required to beat WD is advancing, circle 1 to 200 can do that, it deteriorates quickly
#4 is ridiculous. Removal of target/aim is not a "meager" penalty, its practical removal of all function. Against an at level opponent, you will miss half the time WITH full aim/target. Removal of aim/target is practical removal of that facet of combat as a whole UNLESS you so far outclass your opponent in which case your point is entirely MOOT.
#5 also a lie. There is no "refresh" - you have to recast
#6 That duration is assuming zero decay - WD after it starts taking 30+ seconds to kick in is equal to absolutely nothing.
Your entire post is full of blatant ignorance and misdirection and you should be ashamed of writing it, given your reputation. The ONLY valid point in the entirety of it is that a MM could bypass the ranged penalty by using thrown weaponry. So in exchange for neutering all other missile options, you are left with thrown. End of story.
TLDR - assuming equal offenses and defenses, removal of target from tm and aim from ranged leaves absolutely zero functionality, that is NOT meager. About half the time in at level pvp right now is consumed by MISSES on either side. And thats WITH aim/targeting for the ranged options. And YOU have done enough pvp to know this.
VEE-REX
Re: Wolverine
04/14/2013 11:54 PM CDT
>>No aim/target means you arent going to hit an at-level opponent. If you get taken down by tm that cannot be targetted or bows that cannot be aimed your defenses are NOT at level with your opponent. Argue that till you are blue in the face and try to prove it otherwise.
You are exchanging the retreat penalty for non-target/aim. The retreat penalty is worse, and I just watched my character's wife down someone that would've otherwise won while using non-target TM while her WD was active.
>>#1 is an out-n-out lie, the only thing required to beat WD is advancing, circle 1 to 200 can do that, it deteriorates quickly
Apparently you don't understand how WD works.
WD deteriorates until there is a pause, at which point it 'refreshes' itself (not in total duration, but refreshes its own deterioration to its original state before it started deteriorating). Tested and proven already.
>>#4 is ridiculous. Removal of target/aim is not a "meager" penalty, its practical removal of all function. Against an at level opponent, you will miss half the time WITH full aim/target. Removal of aim/target is practical removal of that facet of combat as a whole UNLESS you so far outclass your opponent in which case your point is entirely MOOT.
So not only do you not understand how WD works, but you cannot read. I said relatively meager penalty. The stacking retreat penalty that WD completely bypasses is instead replaced by the non-target/aim penalty, which pales in comparison.
>>#5 also a lie. There is no "refresh" - you have to recast
You completely misunderstood what I was referring to.
>>#6 That duration is assuming zero decay - WD after it starts taking 30+ seconds to kick in is equal to absolutely nothing.
This is crap. A single charge gives a large enough roundtime to revitalize the decay/deterioration of WD, allowing it to perform back to its original rate after the initial cast. Anyone using WD's decay as a serious restriction either don't understand how it works or are being dishonest.
I've listed my counter points to both deterioration/decay and the no-target/aim penalties. Either address them or I'm not responding to you.
Also, feel free to ignore the fact that WD still allows you to ignore stuns, immobilizations (hell, maybe even unconciousness, I didn't test this one), and stealth advancing while trying to prove your point.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
You are exchanging the retreat penalty for non-target/aim. The retreat penalty is worse, and I just watched my character's wife down someone that would've otherwise won while using non-target TM while her WD was active.
>>#1 is an out-n-out lie, the only thing required to beat WD is advancing, circle 1 to 200 can do that, it deteriorates quickly
Apparently you don't understand how WD works.
WD deteriorates until there is a pause, at which point it 'refreshes' itself (not in total duration, but refreshes its own deterioration to its original state before it started deteriorating). Tested and proven already.
>>#4 is ridiculous. Removal of target/aim is not a "meager" penalty, its practical removal of all function. Against an at level opponent, you will miss half the time WITH full aim/target. Removal of aim/target is practical removal of that facet of combat as a whole UNLESS you so far outclass your opponent in which case your point is entirely MOOT.
So not only do you not understand how WD works, but you cannot read. I said relatively meager penalty. The stacking retreat penalty that WD completely bypasses is instead replaced by the non-target/aim penalty, which pales in comparison.
>>#5 also a lie. There is no "refresh" - you have to recast
You completely misunderstood what I was referring to.
>>#6 That duration is assuming zero decay - WD after it starts taking 30+ seconds to kick in is equal to absolutely nothing.
This is crap. A single charge gives a large enough roundtime to revitalize the decay/deterioration of WD, allowing it to perform back to its original rate after the initial cast. Anyone using WD's decay as a serious restriction either don't understand how it works or are being dishonest.
I've listed my counter points to both deterioration/decay and the no-target/aim penalties. Either address them or I'm not responding to you.
Also, feel free to ignore the fact that WD still allows you to ignore stuns, immobilizations (hell, maybe even unconciousness, I didn't test this one), and stealth advancing while trying to prove your point.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
VEE-REX
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 12:08 AM CDT
>>And you are being obtuse in your own folder.
I'm just sick of all the bias.
WD outperforms RETREAT with the fact that it doesn't affect thrown weapons, it doesn't penalize TM/aimables as much as the stacking RETREAT penalty does, it doesn't get stopped by disablers like RETREAT does, and it doesn't get negated by stealth advancing like RETREAT does.
The only advantage RETREAT has over WD is that it can be used more quickly because of WD's reoccuring temporary decay, but I'd gladly exchange that for everything WD does. People complain about RETREAT still being unbalanced and extending fights far beyond what they should do, yet you honestly believes WD is perfectly balanced? Seriously, come on.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I'm just sick of all the bias.
WD outperforms RETREAT with the fact that it doesn't affect thrown weapons, it doesn't penalize TM/aimables as much as the stacking RETREAT penalty does, it doesn't get stopped by disablers like RETREAT does, and it doesn't get negated by stealth advancing like RETREAT does.
The only advantage RETREAT has over WD is that it can be used more quickly because of WD's reoccuring temporary decay, but I'd gladly exchange that for everything WD does. People complain about RETREAT still being unbalanced and extending fights far beyond what they should do, yet you honestly believes WD is perfectly balanced? Seriously, come on.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
SPIRITFLARE
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 12:31 AM CDT
I will agree with you on the point that WD outperforms retreat in regards to thrown weapons. But saying it doesnt penalize TM/aimables as much as stacking retreat penalty does is wrong. The inability to aim/target is equal to the INSTANT application of several layers of the retreat penalty. It does bypass disablers somewhat, but not entirely. When WD teleports you and you are stunned, you are STILL stunned. Same for immobilization etc. WD is also a spell and retreat is free for everyone, if WD served zero function whatsoever it would not exist.
Now as to your point about retreat being unbalanced and extending combat for longer than what they should do, I agree. WD serves a similar function in this regard. WD is perfectly balanced against retreat, and when/if GM's ever change retreat to make it more balanced for melee than it is now then maybe then it would need to be looked at for balance reasons. As it stands right now, in the CURRENT state of the game, WD is not unbalanced, nor is it even considered a great asset by MANY pvp-centric MM's because its so closely mirrored by just retreating.
Now as for bias, I suggest you look inward. While the ranged/melee balance may not be perfect right now, it is closer than it has ever been. There was a time not too long ago that those with a longbow ruled all others. Thankfully, now, that is not the case. The retreat penalties have gone a long way towards helping with that in addition to the dramatic increase in health for players across the board. The biggest problem with pvp, aside from some blatantly overpowered abilities here and there (NOT wd by a longshot) is the ability to just up and leave when the going gets tough since it takes so much longer to kill now. Does WD enable this? Yes it does. Does retreat enable this? Why yes, yes it does. WD is marginally better than retreat in this regard, as it should be since it is not simply something freely given to every character created. What you are really tired of is what retreat enables by itself, if that ever changes for the better in your opinion, THEN you can cry to have WD changed and Ill happily agree with you. Until then, WD is balanced by PLENTY of downsides, enough so that its most used function is that of sweet messaging when moving rooms. The fact that you have such a problem with it is a symptom of your own inability to see clearly what is wrong with the current state of things. If you want to crusade for change, I suggest you aim your fervor at BASE MECHANICS before you call out a spell that enables basically the same thing, with similar/equal downsides, and greater cost. (mana/spellslot/etc)
Now as to your point about retreat being unbalanced and extending combat for longer than what they should do, I agree. WD serves a similar function in this regard. WD is perfectly balanced against retreat, and when/if GM's ever change retreat to make it more balanced for melee than it is now then maybe then it would need to be looked at for balance reasons. As it stands right now, in the CURRENT state of the game, WD is not unbalanced, nor is it even considered a great asset by MANY pvp-centric MM's because its so closely mirrored by just retreating.
Now as for bias, I suggest you look inward. While the ranged/melee balance may not be perfect right now, it is closer than it has ever been. There was a time not too long ago that those with a longbow ruled all others. Thankfully, now, that is not the case. The retreat penalties have gone a long way towards helping with that in addition to the dramatic increase in health for players across the board. The biggest problem with pvp, aside from some blatantly overpowered abilities here and there (NOT wd by a longshot) is the ability to just up and leave when the going gets tough since it takes so much longer to kill now. Does WD enable this? Yes it does. Does retreat enable this? Why yes, yes it does. WD is marginally better than retreat in this regard, as it should be since it is not simply something freely given to every character created. What you are really tired of is what retreat enables by itself, if that ever changes for the better in your opinion, THEN you can cry to have WD changed and Ill happily agree with you. Until then, WD is balanced by PLENTY of downsides, enough so that its most used function is that of sweet messaging when moving rooms. The fact that you have such a problem with it is a symptom of your own inability to see clearly what is wrong with the current state of things. If you want to crusade for change, I suggest you aim your fervor at BASE MECHANICS before you call out a spell that enables basically the same thing, with similar/equal downsides, and greater cost. (mana/spellslot/etc)
VEE-REX
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 01:50 AM CDT
>>But saying it doesnt penalize TM/aimables as much as stacking retreat penalty does is wrong. The inability to aim/target is equal to the INSTANT application of several layers of the retreat penalty.
At level PvP battles don't last a short time at all. The retreating stacking penalty will easily surpass the non-targeting/aiming in no time. The retreating penalty will eliminate hundreds of ranks, I remember being completely unable to hit assassins at due to this penalty. I believe the retreat penalty (which affects thrown and can have a more devastating effect on ranged) is far worse than being unable to target/aim (while still being able to use thrown). Is this unreasonable? No.
>>When WD teleports you and you are stunned, you are STILL stunned. Same for immobilization etc. WD is also a spell and retreat is free for everyone, if WD served zero function whatsoever it would not exist.
Umm, of course? That doesn't give it the right to be OP. You cannot retreat when you are disabled - WD works when you are disabled.
>> As it stands right now, in the CURRENT state of the game, WD is not unbalanced, nor is it even considered a great asset by MANY pvp-centric MM's because its so closely mirrored by just retreating.
Many pvp-centric MM's as in who? No one is perfect, no one knows everything that is available to them.
As an example: Many PvP-centric Barbarians didn't believe roaring was OP or even worth the charisma in 2.0. Guess what? Roaring was OP.
We're still learning about stuff in 3.0 that is unbalanced. While WD isn't practical in every situation, it still does quite a number of things against melee and debilitation and stealth that might be overlooked by some of these pvp-centric MMs.
>>Now as for bias, I suggest you look inward. While the ranged/melee balance may not be perfect right now, it is closer than it has ever been.
When did I say it wasn't?
>> There was a time not too long ago that those with a longbow ruled all others.
Yeah, tell me about it. I got horror stories I could share about this.
>> The fact that you have such a problem with it is a symptom of your own inability to see clearly what is wrong with the current state of things. If you want to crusade for change, I suggest you aim your fervor at BASE MECHANICS before you call out a spell that enables basically the same thing, with similar/equal downsides, and greater cost.
I left it alone in the MM folder. You're the one waltzing in here claiming people have illusions on the functionality of WD just because they don't agree that it's perfectly balanced, and then going on to bring a bunch of meaningless nonsense such as 'reputation' into the discussion even though you obviously failed at understanding how WD works in the first place.
Get out of here, dude. I made my points, you tried to make yours, so we'll just disagree. Not worth my time from here on out so I'll only respond to you in the conflicts folder should you decide to take it there. Goodnight.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
At level PvP battles don't last a short time at all. The retreating stacking penalty will easily surpass the non-targeting/aiming in no time. The retreating penalty will eliminate hundreds of ranks, I remember being completely unable to hit assassins at due to this penalty. I believe the retreat penalty (which affects thrown and can have a more devastating effect on ranged) is far worse than being unable to target/aim (while still being able to use thrown). Is this unreasonable? No.
>>When WD teleports you and you are stunned, you are STILL stunned. Same for immobilization etc. WD is also a spell and retreat is free for everyone, if WD served zero function whatsoever it would not exist.
Umm, of course? That doesn't give it the right to be OP. You cannot retreat when you are disabled - WD works when you are disabled.
>> As it stands right now, in the CURRENT state of the game, WD is not unbalanced, nor is it even considered a great asset by MANY pvp-centric MM's because its so closely mirrored by just retreating.
Many pvp-centric MM's as in who? No one is perfect, no one knows everything that is available to them.
As an example: Many PvP-centric Barbarians didn't believe roaring was OP or even worth the charisma in 2.0. Guess what? Roaring was OP.
We're still learning about stuff in 3.0 that is unbalanced. While WD isn't practical in every situation, it still does quite a number of things against melee and debilitation and stealth that might be overlooked by some of these pvp-centric MMs.
>>Now as for bias, I suggest you look inward. While the ranged/melee balance may not be perfect right now, it is closer than it has ever been.
When did I say it wasn't?
>> There was a time not too long ago that those with a longbow ruled all others.
Yeah, tell me about it. I got horror stories I could share about this.
>> The fact that you have such a problem with it is a symptom of your own inability to see clearly what is wrong with the current state of things. If you want to crusade for change, I suggest you aim your fervor at BASE MECHANICS before you call out a spell that enables basically the same thing, with similar/equal downsides, and greater cost.
I left it alone in the MM folder. You're the one waltzing in here claiming people have illusions on the functionality of WD just because they don't agree that it's perfectly balanced, and then going on to bring a bunch of meaningless nonsense such as 'reputation' into the discussion even though you obviously failed at understanding how WD works in the first place.
Get out of here, dude. I made my points, you tried to make yours, so we'll just disagree. Not worth my time from here on out so I'll only respond to you in the conflicts folder should you decide to take it there. Goodnight.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
SPIRITFLARE
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 02:11 AM CDT
Your venom is hilarious. Case and point, to quote you partially -
"While WD isn't practical in every situation, it still does quite a number of things against melee and debilitation and stealth"
It would seem that you would lobby that WD should do absolutely nothing whatsoever. Do not worry, I wont post again here or conflicts. As you deem me unworthy to respond to again, I share a similar sentiment in regards to you now.
As for the rest of you, WD isnt practical in any situation outside of escaping conflict or using thrown or looking spiffy while you move. It has penalties baked into it. If you expect something akin to WD in opposite, expect something baked into it to negate almost all advantages something like that would give you - JUST like WD.
"While WD isn't practical in every situation, it still does quite a number of things against melee and debilitation and stealth"
It would seem that you would lobby that WD should do absolutely nothing whatsoever. Do not worry, I wont post again here or conflicts. As you deem me unworthy to respond to again, I share a similar sentiment in regards to you now.
As for the rest of you, WD isnt practical in any situation outside of escaping conflict or using thrown or looking spiffy while you move. It has penalties baked into it. If you expect something akin to WD in opposite, expect something baked into it to negate almost all advantages something like that would give you - JUST like WD.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 09:06 AM CDT
SPIRITFLARE
>>I simply cannot understand how, with ranged already/still so dominant, abilities like WD or knockback effects like RoS would be allowed, but melee equivalents are conceptually treated as game-breaking.
This little side comment that was off-topic is what caused you to go on a crusaude over WD
>>@DiminishedAngel + anyone else with illusions as to the ACTUAL functionality of Whole Displacement
Wow you are way too defensive
Anyways, Back on topic: I would consider the thief advancement while hidden ability (whatever the name) a better comparison to what I would like to see in Wolvering (except not hidden). I don't really know or understand how that ability works though so I could be wrong. I did see it in action before and it looks to be pretty quick/effective at reaching melee.
It probably should NOT work while hidden and only work while unhidden. I assume the thief ability only works while hidden?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
>>I simply cannot understand how, with ranged already/still so dominant, abilities like WD or knockback effects like RoS would be allowed, but melee equivalents are conceptually treated as game-breaking.
This little side comment that was off-topic is what caused you to go on a crusaude over WD
>>@DiminishedAngel + anyone else with illusions as to the ACTUAL functionality of Whole Displacement
Wow you are way too defensive
Anyways, Back on topic: I would consider the thief advancement while hidden ability (whatever the name) a better comparison to what I would like to see in Wolvering (except not hidden). I don't really know or understand how that ability works though so I could be wrong. I did see it in action before and it looks to be pretty quick/effective at reaching melee.
It probably should NOT work while hidden and only work while unhidden. I assume the thief ability only works while hidden?
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
NEELD
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 09:41 AM CDT
FWIW:
<<As for the rest of you, WD isnt practical in any situation outside of escaping conflict or using thrown or looking spiffy while you move.
This is how I have viewed it as OP. If you can avoid the retreat mechanics (and penalties) and still get the benefit of thrown, that is probably out of whack presently. Not sure if that is a WD issue or the fact that thrown is the bees knees right now. Probably both.
Madigan
You sense the Clarity spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-six roisaen.
You sense the Anti-Stun spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-five roisaen.
<<As for the rest of you, WD isnt practical in any situation outside of escaping conflict or using thrown or looking spiffy while you move.
This is how I have viewed it as OP. If you can avoid the retreat mechanics (and penalties) and still get the benefit of thrown, that is probably out of whack presently. Not sure if that is a WD issue or the fact that thrown is the bees knees right now. Probably both.
Madigan
You sense the Clarity spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-six roisaen.
You sense the Anti-Stun spell upon you, which will last for about seven thousand eight hundred thirty-five roisaen.
SPIRITFLARE
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 01:54 PM CDT
@MARTINCOTY77
Now that, I think, is something that could be mirrored. The way it works is its khri shadowstep and I dont think anyone considers it to be out of balance. Whenever you are in stealth and advance, you start from pole range and get a 3 second roundtime. Usually by the time the roundtime is up you are at melee. I believe you had something like that in 2.0, or atleast very similar? So, while wolverine is up you could be able to instantly leap to pole range and incur a 3 second roundtime and end up at melee much much faster, you just wouldnt be able to take advantage of a pole ranged weapon to instantly start striking. Shadowstep used to not have a roundtime but I think they considered instant ambush slash OP with poleranged weapons. Infact, I think it sounds very barbarian to have something like this - +1 vote.
Now that, I think, is something that could be mirrored. The way it works is its khri shadowstep and I dont think anyone considers it to be out of balance. Whenever you are in stealth and advance, you start from pole range and get a 3 second roundtime. Usually by the time the roundtime is up you are at melee. I believe you had something like that in 2.0, or atleast very similar? So, while wolverine is up you could be able to instantly leap to pole range and incur a 3 second roundtime and end up at melee much much faster, you just wouldnt be able to take advantage of a pole ranged weapon to instantly start striking. Shadowstep used to not have a roundtime but I think they considered instant ambush slash OP with poleranged weapons. Infact, I think it sounds very barbarian to have something like this - +1 vote.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 03:00 PM CDT
>>The way it works is its khri shadowstep and I dont think anyone considers it to be out of balance. Whenever you are in stealth and advance, you start from pole range and get a 3 second roundtime. Usually by the time the roundtime is up you are at melee. I believe you had something like that in 2.0, or atleast very similar?
Yeah old swan was exactly like this, except unhidden. Actually I never even thought to test if it would worked while hidden...
But I wish wolverine worked like this.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Yeah old swan was exactly like this, except unhidden. Actually I never even thought to test if it would worked while hidden...
But I wish wolverine worked like this.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 05:42 PM CDT
>>@DiminishedAngel + anyone else with illusions as to the ACTUAL functionality of Whole Displacement
You project way too much dude. I made zero comment about WD's functionality, didn't claim it was OP or anything of the sort. It was merely mentioned by name. Thank you for informing me about its "ACTUAL functionality," of which I was completely aware.
The actual topic at hand is that there are already many ways to avoid melee engagement in a system with teleport-retreating, so it's puzzling why Shadowstep is the only ability that teleports closer.
You project way too much dude. I made zero comment about WD's functionality, didn't claim it was OP or anything of the sort. It was merely mentioned by name. Thank you for informing me about its "ACTUAL functionality," of which I was completely aware.
The actual topic at hand is that there are already many ways to avoid melee engagement in a system with teleport-retreating, so it's puzzling why Shadowstep is the only ability that teleports closer.
APATHETICSMILE
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 05:54 PM CDT
>>The actual topic at hand is that there are already many ways to avoid melee engagement in a system with teleport-retreating, so it's puzzling why Shadowstep is the only ability that teleports closer.
PW can be used to push a target to melee, it's sort of the same thing as teleporting to melee.
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/PW
PW can be used to push a target to melee, it's sort of the same thing as teleporting to melee.
http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/PW
SPIRITFLARE
Re: Wolverine
04/15/2013 08:31 PM CDT
Im not sure PW is a fair comparison to any of the others since its the only one of the lot that actually DOES have a contest of skills.
Anywho, Im all for a return of barbarian leaps-to-pole functionality with a roundtime to prevent instant attacks from poleranged, just like shadowstep. I honestly cannot understand why it was lost in transition in the first place. Perhaps Kodius could chime in on why it wasnt ported over to 3.0? Wasnt old swan exactly this?
Anywho, Im all for a return of barbarian leaps-to-pole functionality with a roundtime to prevent instant attacks from poleranged, just like shadowstep. I honestly cannot understand why it was lost in transition in the first place. Perhaps Kodius could chime in on why it wasnt ported over to 3.0? Wasnt old swan exactly this?
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Wolverine
04/16/2013 03:54 AM CDT
>>PW can be used to push a target to melee, it's sort of the same thing as teleporting to melee.
Thanks for the reminder, I had completely forgotten about that. I'd still like to see barbs get some such.
Thanks for the reminder, I had completely forgotten about that. I'd still like to see barbs get some such.
MOCKERJB
Re: Wolverine
04/17/2013 07:27 PM CDT
Barbarians should absolutely have a jump to melee ability. Paladins should absolutely have a "keep at melee" ability. Maybe some of each should be shared via skill. And both should have attendant drawbacks, if any, to reflect similar "stay at ranged" abilities, if needed.
The WD argument is premature and incorrect all over the place. I personally think WD is worthless without SLS. Whether or not you see flocks of mms owning barbs via WD use will probably be the best testament to its utility. And I'm confident you won't see that.
The WD argument is premature and incorrect all over the place. I personally think WD is worthless without SLS. Whether or not you see flocks of mms owning barbs via WD use will probably be the best testament to its utility. And I'm confident you won't see that.
