>I could give a lot more details and show tons of situations in spars, tourneys, invasions in the Barb folder if you want to know. Just holler over there.
Ok, Vinjince, I'm taking you up on your offer from the combat thread. :) I realized I've never looked in this folder before.
So just some background, having only played a barbarian to 9th circle, I pretty much have no clue about roars, dances, and berserks. To me, they look powerful when I read about them and I've seen one 60th circle barbarian immobilize an undead monstrosity with a roar. So it looks like pretty potent stuff.
MARSAIS
DGUTHRIE2
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 02:04 PM CST
Wow, I wish I had saved some of my logs. A dozen times or more I've been dancing Dragon, got MB'd by a moonmage, berserked out of the stun (this with a 150th circle barb) and instantly fallen stunned and prone on the ground from a severe loss of inner fire, and then shortly thereafter ended up dead to the moon mage.
A few factors came into play here. This was before the changes to RF and stealths, and pre-HUNT verb. Dragon dance sapped a lot of the Inner Fire to begin with, getting MB'd took more of it, and berserking out of the stun took the rest. All of that equates to one dead barbarian.
So much for some of our most vaunted barbarian abilities. I haven't PvP'd or used some of the higher level barbarian abilities in over a year, so I'm not sure what the results would be. My new barbarian is now 136th, and with some of the changes that have taken place, I think is better trained.
Finally, at 130th circle or so, I've been able to dance Wolverine back to back, meaning when it drops (because every dance has a time limit) I can put it right back up again. I can't do this with Dragon yet.
My roars are largely ineffective against other characters at the same level, especially those that have some form of intimidation defense or boost to stats that resist intimidation. My roars against critters almost always succeed.
I'm not complaining, I love playing barbarians and like everyone else that plays this game, when changes come down from above, I deal with them and learn to adjust. Could barbarians be better? Yes. They could use some serious re-work on their dances, berserks, roars, abilities, inner fire, BMR, etc, but overall, I'm happy with the way things have gone so far.
If I manage to save any logs of dances wearing off, roars being ineffective, berserks leaving me stunned for lack of inner fire, I'll be sure to post them.
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
A few factors came into play here. This was before the changes to RF and stealths, and pre-HUNT verb. Dragon dance sapped a lot of the Inner Fire to begin with, getting MB'd took more of it, and berserking out of the stun took the rest. All of that equates to one dead barbarian.
So much for some of our most vaunted barbarian abilities. I haven't PvP'd or used some of the higher level barbarian abilities in over a year, so I'm not sure what the results would be. My new barbarian is now 136th, and with some of the changes that have taken place, I think is better trained.
Finally, at 130th circle or so, I've been able to dance Wolverine back to back, meaning when it drops (because every dance has a time limit) I can put it right back up again. I can't do this with Dragon yet.
My roars are largely ineffective against other characters at the same level, especially those that have some form of intimidation defense or boost to stats that resist intimidation. My roars against critters almost always succeed.
I'm not complaining, I love playing barbarians and like everyone else that plays this game, when changes come down from above, I deal with them and learn to adjust. Could barbarians be better? Yes. They could use some serious re-work on their dances, berserks, roars, abilities, inner fire, BMR, etc, but overall, I'm happy with the way things have gone so far.
If I manage to save any logs of dances wearing off, roars being ineffective, berserks leaving me stunned for lack of inner fire, I'll be sure to post them.
________________________________________
<<DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG. >>
You flat out, absolutely, 100% have no idea what you're talking about.
Solomon
VEE-REX
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 02:58 PM CST
Suuuuuuuuuuper long post incoming. Ok, I'll do my best to explain both the advantages and disadvantages to roars, dances, and berserks. I'll detail how useful I find them in invasions, sparring, hunting, and tourneying. Barbarian abilities are powerful indeed (this entire post is not a complaint), but hopefully you can come to a better understanding of how inflexible they are.
Berserks and dances are governed by inner fire which isn't static - meaning that certain actions will forever plague a Barbarian. b
1. Berserks -
Berserks are great for instant power. To me, there are less advantages to using them vs. disadvantages. Some advantages of berserks that I love are the fact that they all restore fatigue with each pulse, and they all break you out of stuns though at the cost of inner fire. a When a berserk ends with low inner fire, a Barbarian drops down on the ground fatigued and with a lonnnnng stun. Dead meat basically. Their disadvantages hinder me from using them hardly at all in a lot of situations. For example:
Invasions - All berserks lower perception from a decrease in mentals. This makes it harder to both defend against spells and search out critters/GMPCs that hide. Some of the more powerful berserks prevent you from retreating. This is a huge disadvantage in invasions especially when you're part of a group going around and killing critters. I'm sure you can imagine Marsais how annoying it can be. Since we can only dance or berserk, why should I bother too much with berserking during invasions when I have access to another powerful set of abilities without the downsides that berserking have?
Sparring - This is where I'd most likely use berserking if at all. The situation is linear, and most spars take place in only one room. The disadvantages still apply - no retreating, and pretty big penalty when defending against spellcasters and people that hide because of the hit to mentals. So all in all, still not a great choice for sparring. Also, when berserks break us out of stuns, it saps our inner fire which means a facing a Moon Mage or Cleric or another guild that chain stuns can be suicidal if you use berserks because you'll pass out when it ends.
Hunting - No retreating can be annoying for this, but generally once you reach a certain point, dancing becomes better. The other penalties to berserking really don't come into play for this especially since the decrease in mentals don't affect learning rates.
Tourneying - Not a great scenario for berserking either since tourneys are generally stealth and disabler heavy. Getting stunned just once with 6+ people around gunning for you can end in a quick death.
Now, put all of the above together and then realize that we can't end a berserk on our own. After using one, we just gotta deal with it until it ends. Some berserks only last briefly, others last longer but are much weaker in power. So in conclusion with berserks, I feel they're best used as an instant increase in power in an attempt to kill something quickly. If that does not work, we have no room to adjust to the situation. This is the major problem with all our abilities.
Dancing -
Dancing is probably our best in the long run. Berserking seems to attract younger characters until they develop the stats to see good results in dancing.
Invasions - Dragon dance is our best dance, but probably only after you reach a high circle. It saps inner fire and unless you are a 120+ Barbarian, I doubt you can activate Dragon again after it ends. This poses a problem in invasions that last hours long for me. I think it lasts 13 minutes for me. So while everyone else is able to buff themselves and with each other's spells, rub cjs, recast and such if it ends, I must take a timeout after Dragon ends to stay fighting the toughest monsters. b My inner fire simply hasn't grown.
For example: One time Sahfra killed our entire group. Everyone departed, rebuffed, then wondered why I needed 20+ minutes for my inner fire to recover before I could dance and join them again. b So in invasions, dancing our almighty Dragon is very short lived. The problem comes when I don't want the multi boost, when I don't want the melee boost, when I don't want the parry boost, when I don't want the magic resistance boost, the strength and stamina boost and so everything is inflexible (inner fire is drained + can't use berserks and most other dances when 13 minutes passes) just because I may only want an evasion and ranged boost.
Sparring - Dragon dance is great for sparring. This is probably what most people outside the Barbarian guild experiences, and so they automatically think it's just the best thing ever despite not dealing with it in tons of other situations. Spars usually don't last more than 13 minutes and usually the choice of dance I make before the spar determines the outcome. So if I choose Dragon dance before sparring, I may not have a need for any perception or stealth boosts.
Hunting - We have a multitude of dances that are useful for hunting. Dancing the stronger dances back to back to back isn't an issue for higher circle Barbarians (100+) as long as they can kill constantly (killing critters that teach the weapon you use SLOWLY helps restore inner fire).
Tourneying - This is partially where not being flexible shows. Battle constantly changes when there isn't just a singular target. I am faced with a huge dilemma before the start of just about every single tournament. Do I dance Eagle or do I dance Dragon? I have no need for the multi boost, etc... and lots others that Dragon provides. Yet, Eagle only boosts perception (a small boost at that) and ranged weapon, so I'm missing out on defenses and others. If I want to be stealthy, I have to dance Panther and therefore give up any chance for a shield or perception or BMR or direct ranged boost.
The above sort of explains some problems with berserking and dancing. They're powerful abilities but not very user friendly at all. And a lot of times it can be frustrating to get denied future abilities just because we have Dragon, which does a lot of things that we don't necessarily need at the moment.
Roaring -
An entirely different issue. Roars are broken in a lot of ways. You can read a few GM posts on it but the main problem to me boils down to group roaring vs. roaring groups. It's like a double edged sword. Meaning, give a Barbarian a group of 20 people and he/she can pretty much roar any single person on the game. A 50th Barbarian can immobilize + stun + roar anything on a 150th MM with maxed out stats IF that Barbarian has 20 people in his group.
At the same time, a 150th Barbarian is going to find roaring literally impossible in a room full of 30 people because the power of the roar is divided to hit all of them. So a lot of times, I don't roar at all in invasions or tourneys or spars because of the crowd gathered. Potentially powerful ability, but not really useful when you only use it once or twice a month (unless you use it for hunting). I imagine different Barbs have different uses. If I even had a few roars that could single target someone, I'd use them way more often.
Also, intimidation + charisma boosts roar power. So I may often find myself in a dilemma on which dance or berserk to use if I want to roar something. Of course the way dances and berserks are set up (as explained in this entire post), I have to live with my choice and die with it, heh. Hardly any room for switching based on circumstances.
Berserking out of dancing kills inner fire (remember, inner fire is static and doesn't grow) which usually ends in a prone and stunned Barbarian. Attempting to do this while dancing Dragon is suicidal.
I didn't cover everything (that would be impossible), so if you have any specific questions feel free to ask. Sort of started getting lazy towards the end.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Berserks and dances are governed by inner fire which isn't static - meaning that certain actions will forever plague a Barbarian. b
1. Berserks -
Berserks are great for instant power. To me, there are less advantages to using them vs. disadvantages. Some advantages of berserks that I love are the fact that they all restore fatigue with each pulse, and they all break you out of stuns though at the cost of inner fire. a When a berserk ends with low inner fire, a Barbarian drops down on the ground fatigued and with a lonnnnng stun. Dead meat basically. Their disadvantages hinder me from using them hardly at all in a lot of situations. For example:
Invasions - All berserks lower perception from a decrease in mentals. This makes it harder to both defend against spells and search out critters/GMPCs that hide. Some of the more powerful berserks prevent you from retreating. This is a huge disadvantage in invasions especially when you're part of a group going around and killing critters. I'm sure you can imagine Marsais how annoying it can be. Since we can only dance or berserk, why should I bother too much with berserking during invasions when I have access to another powerful set of abilities without the downsides that berserking have?
Sparring - This is where I'd most likely use berserking if at all. The situation is linear, and most spars take place in only one room. The disadvantages still apply - no retreating, and pretty big penalty when defending against spellcasters and people that hide because of the hit to mentals. So all in all, still not a great choice for sparring. Also, when berserks break us out of stuns, it saps our inner fire which means a facing a Moon Mage or Cleric or another guild that chain stuns can be suicidal if you use berserks because you'll pass out when it ends.
Hunting - No retreating can be annoying for this, but generally once you reach a certain point, dancing becomes better. The other penalties to berserking really don't come into play for this especially since the decrease in mentals don't affect learning rates.
Tourneying - Not a great scenario for berserking either since tourneys are generally stealth and disabler heavy. Getting stunned just once with 6+ people around gunning for you can end in a quick death.
Now, put all of the above together and then realize that we can't end a berserk on our own. After using one, we just gotta deal with it until it ends. Some berserks only last briefly, others last longer but are much weaker in power. So in conclusion with berserks, I feel they're best used as an instant increase in power in an attempt to kill something quickly. If that does not work, we have no room to adjust to the situation. This is the major problem with all our abilities.
Dancing -
Dancing is probably our best in the long run. Berserking seems to attract younger characters until they develop the stats to see good results in dancing.
Invasions - Dragon dance is our best dance, but probably only after you reach a high circle. It saps inner fire and unless you are a 120+ Barbarian, I doubt you can activate Dragon again after it ends. This poses a problem in invasions that last hours long for me. I think it lasts 13 minutes for me. So while everyone else is able to buff themselves and with each other's spells, rub cjs, recast and such if it ends, I must take a timeout after Dragon ends to stay fighting the toughest monsters. b My inner fire simply hasn't grown.
For example: One time Sahfra killed our entire group. Everyone departed, rebuffed, then wondered why I needed 20+ minutes for my inner fire to recover before I could dance and join them again. b So in invasions, dancing our almighty Dragon is very short lived. The problem comes when I don't want the multi boost, when I don't want the melee boost, when I don't want the parry boost, when I don't want the magic resistance boost, the strength and stamina boost and so everything is inflexible (inner fire is drained + can't use berserks and most other dances when 13 minutes passes) just because I may only want an evasion and ranged boost.
Sparring - Dragon dance is great for sparring. This is probably what most people outside the Barbarian guild experiences, and so they automatically think it's just the best thing ever despite not dealing with it in tons of other situations. Spars usually don't last more than 13 minutes and usually the choice of dance I make before the spar determines the outcome. So if I choose Dragon dance before sparring, I may not have a need for any perception or stealth boosts.
Hunting - We have a multitude of dances that are useful for hunting. Dancing the stronger dances back to back to back isn't an issue for higher circle Barbarians (100+) as long as they can kill constantly (killing critters that teach the weapon you use SLOWLY helps restore inner fire).
Tourneying - This is partially where not being flexible shows. Battle constantly changes when there isn't just a singular target. I am faced with a huge dilemma before the start of just about every single tournament. Do I dance Eagle or do I dance Dragon? I have no need for the multi boost, etc... and lots others that Dragon provides. Yet, Eagle only boosts perception (a small boost at that) and ranged weapon, so I'm missing out on defenses and others. If I want to be stealthy, I have to dance Panther and therefore give up any chance for a shield or perception or BMR or direct ranged boost.
The above sort of explains some problems with berserking and dancing. They're powerful abilities but not very user friendly at all. And a lot of times it can be frustrating to get denied future abilities just because we have Dragon, which does a lot of things that we don't necessarily need at the moment.
Roaring -
An entirely different issue. Roars are broken in a lot of ways. You can read a few GM posts on it but the main problem to me boils down to group roaring vs. roaring groups. It's like a double edged sword. Meaning, give a Barbarian a group of 20 people and he/she can pretty much roar any single person on the game. A 50th Barbarian can immobilize + stun + roar anything on a 150th MM with maxed out stats IF that Barbarian has 20 people in his group.
At the same time, a 150th Barbarian is going to find roaring literally impossible in a room full of 30 people because the power of the roar is divided to hit all of them. So a lot of times, I don't roar at all in invasions or tourneys or spars because of the crowd gathered. Potentially powerful ability, but not really useful when you only use it once or twice a month (unless you use it for hunting). I imagine different Barbs have different uses. If I even had a few roars that could single target someone, I'd use them way more often.
Also, intimidation + charisma boosts roar power. So I may often find myself in a dilemma on which dance or berserk to use if I want to roar something. Of course the way dances and berserks are set up (as explained in this entire post), I have to live with my choice and die with it, heh. Hardly any room for switching based on circumstances.
Berserking out of dancing kills inner fire (remember, inner fire is static and doesn't grow) which usually ends in a prone and stunned Barbarian. Attempting to do this while dancing Dragon is suicidal.
I didn't cover everything (that would be impossible), so if you have any specific questions feel free to ask. Sort of started getting lazy towards the end.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 03:12 PM CST
<<To me, they look powerful when I read about them>>
They are, but there are so many restrictions that only the extreme top-end Barbarians get to use them with any regularity. And of course, by this point many of the game's systems (especially combat and those related to combat) begin to break down, so they're even more powerful than I think they were intended to be.
Thing is, you can't view the Barbarian guild through TFgoggles. Most of us probably don't even reach the capped boosts from Dragon, on top of not being able to use anything once it ends.
L: Why is the Trader's Guild so big?
V: I dunno.
L: It's huge!
V: Maybe they're compensating for something.
They are, but there are so many restrictions that only the extreme top-end Barbarians get to use them with any regularity. And of course, by this point many of the game's systems (especially combat and those related to combat) begin to break down, so they're even more powerful than I think they were intended to be.
Thing is, you can't view the Barbarian guild through TFgoggles. Most of us probably don't even reach the capped boosts from Dragon, on top of not being able to use anything once it ends.
L: Why is the Trader's Guild so big?
V: I dunno.
L: It's huge!
V: Maybe they're compensating for something.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 05:29 PM CST
>>I've seen one 60th circle barbarian immobilize an undead monstrosity with a roar. So it looks like pretty potent stuff.
This was one of those situations that Vinjince described.....20+ group of people. I can't remember if I went to jail for disturbing the peace with that......another downside. Roars are inflexible to the max.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
This was one of those situations that Vinjince described.....20+ group of people. I can't remember if I went to jail for disturbing the peace with that......another downside. Roars are inflexible to the max.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
MARSAIS
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 06:16 PM CST
>Vinjince's post
Thanks for taking the time to explain that. It really cleared alot up. Is there any plans to rewrite the whole inner fire issue? Seems like it should be based off of concentration or even treated as a type of mana pool with a skill tied to it.
>This was one of those situations that Vinjince described.....20+ group of people. I can't remember if I went to jail for disturbing the peace with that......another downside. Roars are inflexible to the max.
It's still pretty sweet you have the option of doing that at that circle against something so difficult.
Thanks for taking the time to explain that. It really cleared alot up. Is there any plans to rewrite the whole inner fire issue? Seems like it should be based off of concentration or even treated as a type of mana pool with a skill tied to it.
>This was one of those situations that Vinjince described.....20+ group of people. I can't remember if I went to jail for disturbing the peace with that......another downside. Roars are inflexible to the max.
It's still pretty sweet you have the option of doing that at that circle against something so difficult.
SUGARSNOUT
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 06:43 PM CST
>Is there any plans to rewrite the whole inner fire issue?
Basically everything Barbarian is being re-written. All of our abilities tie into one another somehow, and everything is either based off something that is broken, or is broken itself.
The inner fire pool, as Vin said, is static. It is not large enough to support some of our current abilities. Dances, Berserks, and BMR are based off our inner fire pool. Roars are broken in so many ways, beginning with the actual contests (base racial height is included). BMR, as I'm sure you know, scales horribly and is effectively broken at the low and high ends. So, yeah... everything is going to be re-written; at least that was Aurdun's plan (new guy over there has been oddly silent).
Also, to further explain the whole Dragon thing, below is the result of dancing Dragon for the duration of the dance start roundtime. It's great while it lasts, but after those 11-12ish minutes are up you're on the sidelines for a good bit of time.
>med amu
You begin to meditate upon the stone amulet, your inner fire swelling as you center your mind, body, and spirit.
Surrounding your reflection is a brilliant aura of pristine quality burning outward at twice your height.
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
R>dance dragon
Your movements feel completely unhindered.
You slowly center yourself, your mind growing quiet as a quickly building rage surges through your body, your limbs quaking with its boundless strength. A terrible roar of fury and bloodlust rips from your throat as the Form of the Dragon consumes you, only a thread of control fighting back the descent into a berserker's madness.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
R>dance stop
You slowly relax, letting the power of the dance fade from your core.
>med amu
You begin to meditate upon the stone amulet, your inner fire swelling as you center your mind, body, and spirit.
Surrounding your reflection is a brilliant aura of flames that extends nearly your full height again above you.
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
R>
R>dance panther
Your movements feel completely unhindered.
You are off center, and have trouble focusing.
Basically everything Barbarian is being re-written. All of our abilities tie into one another somehow, and everything is either based off something that is broken, or is broken itself.
The inner fire pool, as Vin said, is static. It is not large enough to support some of our current abilities. Dances, Berserks, and BMR are based off our inner fire pool. Roars are broken in so many ways, beginning with the actual contests (base racial height is included). BMR, as I'm sure you know, scales horribly and is effectively broken at the low and high ends. So, yeah... everything is going to be re-written; at least that was Aurdun's plan (new guy over there has been oddly silent).
Also, to further explain the whole Dragon thing, below is the result of dancing Dragon for the duration of the dance start roundtime. It's great while it lasts, but after those 11-12ish minutes are up you're on the sidelines for a good bit of time.
>med amu
You begin to meditate upon the stone amulet, your inner fire swelling as you center your mind, body, and spirit.
Surrounding your reflection is a brilliant aura of pristine quality burning outward at twice your height.
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
R>dance dragon
Your movements feel completely unhindered.
You slowly center yourself, your mind growing quiet as a quickly building rage surges through your body, your limbs quaking with its boundless strength. A terrible roar of fury and bloodlust rips from your throat as the Form of the Dragon consumes you, only a thread of control fighting back the descent into a berserker's madness.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
R>dance stop
You slowly relax, letting the power of the dance fade from your core.
>med amu
You begin to meditate upon the stone amulet, your inner fire swelling as you center your mind, body, and spirit.
Surrounding your reflection is a brilliant aura of flames that extends nearly your full height again above you.
You feel a jolt as your vision snaps shut.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
R>
R>dance panther
Your movements feel completely unhindered.
You are off center, and have trouble focusing.
VEE-REX
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 06:50 PM CST
>>It's still pretty sweet you have the option of doing that at that circle against something so difficult.
I agree, but it really is OP. The amount of boosts I can stack together (1 berserk, 1 roar helm, 1 warpaint) is pretty broken since it allows me to roar people I just shouldn't be able to affect at all. And that's just 1 on 1 roaring, not Barb + 20 vs. 1.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
I agree, but it really is OP. The amount of boosts I can stack together (1 berserk, 1 roar helm, 1 warpaint) is pretty broken since it allows me to roar people I just shouldn't be able to affect at all. And that's just 1 on 1 roaring, not Barb + 20 vs. 1.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
MARSAIS
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/30/2009 09:41 PM CST
>Basically everything Barbarian is being re-written. All of our abilities tie into one another somehow, and everything is either based off something that is broken, or is broken itself.
I really hope the guild gets balanced out for you guys soon. Seems like a pretty daunting task.
I really hope the guild gets balanced out for you guys soon. Seems like a pretty daunting task.
JOSHUAO
Re: Teach Me, O Wise One
12/31/2009 02:39 AM CST
>>>>Basically everything Barbarian is being re-written. All of our abilities tie into one another somehow, and everything is either based off something that is broken, or is broken itself.>>>
Welcome Kodius!
Welcome Kodius!
