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Yes, tis I once again with anopther rant against magic....TA DA!
This time I'd like to present an idea about our general place in the world. Ya see, recently I've finally met my dream of being totatally (well, almost) magic free, by ditching empathic help.
How'd I do it? Herbs my friends herbs.....and.... something special. Now herbs were doing just fine until I had a hand chopped off by a box. I sat there for about 45 minutes (Tog stamina) trying to figure out how to get rid of it (herbs couldn't help) without just going and committing suicide. I finally remembered that Dokt uses ointments and that was that. But that's only going to work if I stay around the Crossings... so ya.
Anyways, this is besides the point and just illustrates something I was thinking about. As a guild with a focus on anti-magic, whether or not any given barbarian chooses to be an extreme nutcase like me, we should be advocating for non-magic alternatives to as much as we can.
I'm not asking they be as cheap/easy as the magic alternatives, I mean this is high magic fantasy, but it should be at least AVAILABLE so that there is the option. And for those who would shout about catering to a small proportion of the population, I would respond that it is a small population BECAUSE it's so poorly supported. Very few people would place RP about effectiveness like I do (which all things considered is probably smart).
So here's two areas I think need work:
Healing: Herbs don't cut it. While removing death scars was a step in the right direction, right now the there's only two solutions to severe wounds (empaths, death/depart). I would like to see other healing methods made available, whether it's very expensive NPC autopaths like Dokt that use herbs or the like or very powerful and expensive herbs. Another alternative would be to add healing, ya know that thing real people do that our characters don't for some strange reason? I have the stamina to spend a couple weeks waiting for a bleeder to vanish, would be nice if that was rewarded.
Enchanting: I suspect even mentioning this is going to derail this entire topic, but here we go. As of my reading so far, everyone is going to have access to all creation, except of course us non-magic folk are missing out on anything requiring magic. So I propose this: there should be a type of craft that people with magic can't do.
* Have a material be found that naturally resists having mana lines moved (much like living things) or has none running through them. This stuff can't be worked by mages because they can't feel how to shape it due to years of perceiving mana lines make them unsensitive. Allow it to be turned into anti-cambrinth, provides protection against spells.
* Discover a way to bring out the Inner Fire of animals through their skins or bits. Obviously, a mage working with them would destroy the Inner Fire within. There is already precedent for this in the Barbarian-only weapons that burn non-Barbs.
I don't want to see a case where Barbarians make stuff only for Barbarians, thieves only for thieves, ect. Why? Because if you're a mage, you can sell your enchanted objects to a MUCH wider market. The non-magic guilds should have just as much choice as the magic guilds. Let them have penalties for their magic choices for once.
Okay, I'm done for now.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
RAIST
DGUTHRIE2
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/16/2008 06:29 PM CDT
>>by ditching empathic help.<<
followed later in the post by...
>>I would like to see other healing methods made available, whether it's very expensive NPC autopaths like Dokt<<
If you choose to roleplay that way, I will rejoice every time you depart so as to avoid the empathic touch, which I don't see as being "magic". The means by which they heal themselves is through the use of magic, but the healing of other players is done by what used to be called "transferrence" which is an empathic ability, similar to a barbarian's inner fire, or a paladin's soul pool, or a thief's khri. Would you also turn down a locksmith popping boxes for you simply because they have a special ability that you do not possess? Because regardless of how good you may become at popping boxes, you will never equal the prowess of a trained locksmith from the thieves' guild. I would have to assume that you would also reject resurrection, rejuvenation, vigil, or other such things such as a blessed weapon during an invasion of say... hmmm... undead critters? You might as well not ever get a glyph of warding before you depart or have that forged weapon bonded either, since I suppose... although that is a paladin ability and not a "spell" per se, that it could be considered magic and therefore you must instead dig your grave, provided nobody has robbed it. Don't join a ranger's group either, because who knows when they might scout a trail and run it dragging you along with them. While I don't believe scouting trails is magic, you might think it is.
While I roleplay my barbarian as anti-magic, I don't see certain guild abilities as magic, they are merely... guild abilities. Empaths can heal, barbarians can berserk...
And I'll make sure my empath never offends you by offering to heal your death awaits bleeder...
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
followed later in the post by...
>>I would like to see other healing methods made available, whether it's very expensive NPC autopaths like Dokt<<
If you choose to roleplay that way, I will rejoice every time you depart so as to avoid the empathic touch, which I don't see as being "magic". The means by which they heal themselves is through the use of magic, but the healing of other players is done by what used to be called "transferrence" which is an empathic ability, similar to a barbarian's inner fire, or a paladin's soul pool, or a thief's khri. Would you also turn down a locksmith popping boxes for you simply because they have a special ability that you do not possess? Because regardless of how good you may become at popping boxes, you will never equal the prowess of a trained locksmith from the thieves' guild. I would have to assume that you would also reject resurrection, rejuvenation, vigil, or other such things such as a blessed weapon during an invasion of say... hmmm... undead critters? You might as well not ever get a glyph of warding before you depart or have that forged weapon bonded either, since I suppose... although that is a paladin ability and not a "spell" per se, that it could be considered magic and therefore you must instead dig your grave, provided nobody has robbed it. Don't join a ranger's group either, because who knows when they might scout a trail and run it dragging you along with them. While I don't believe scouting trails is magic, you might think it is.
While I roleplay my barbarian as anti-magic, I don't see certain guild abilities as magic, they are merely... guild abilities. Empaths can heal, barbarians can berserk...
And I'll make sure my empath never offends you by offering to heal your death awaits bleeder...
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
GODKIN
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 12:22 AM CDT
>* Have a material be found that naturally resists having mana lines moved (much like living things) or has none running through them. This stuff can't be worked by mages because they can't feel how to shape it due to years of perceiving mana lines make them unsensitive. Allow it to be turned into anti-cambrinth, provides protection against spells.
Elemental Chakrel
Blackfire Chakrel
Lunar Chakrel
UnHoly Chakrel
Chakrel Craftsmanship
Chakrel Spellbooks
Chakrel Armor
Chakrel Weapons
Chakrel Mounts
Teleportation Chakrel
Healing Chakrel
Life Chakrel
Arcane Chakrel
Ship to Ship Chakrel
Forging Chakrel
Khri Chakrel
Baking Chakrel
Chakrel Stores
and
Consent Chakrel!
If I were to spite my face, in my opinion, cutting off my nose would be a reasonably good start.
Elemental Chakrel
Blackfire Chakrel
Lunar Chakrel
UnHoly Chakrel
Chakrel Craftsmanship
Chakrel Spellbooks
Chakrel Armor
Chakrel Weapons
Chakrel Mounts
Teleportation Chakrel
Healing Chakrel
Life Chakrel
Arcane Chakrel
Ship to Ship Chakrel
Forging Chakrel
Khri Chakrel
Baking Chakrel
Chakrel Stores
and
Consent Chakrel!
If I were to spite my face, in my opinion, cutting off my nose would be a reasonably good start.
RAIST
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 01:35 AM CDT
>>DGUTHRIE2's post
And....? You're right, transferrence isn't magical, I mean it's a supernatural extension of what people can already do like..... errr.... that thingie with the..... Hey I've got an idea, if its not a more powerful or "heroic" exaggeration of something people in the real world can do, lets call it "maaaaaaagic." Funny that. Oh oh oh, no one is good at finding woodland paths in the real word, or being really quiet and hard to see.... and those glyphs of warding? The police officer who lives down the street does that all the time.
I love sarcasm, it's so fun and gets no one anywhere. Shall we continue? Like I said, in my opinion, any powers that are not heroic exaggerations of realistic activities, they fall under "magic." Regardless of whether they actually manipulate lines of mana. I'm not going to debate cleric abilites because that's a can of worms I don't even want to go near.
For whatever it matters, no I don't get raises, rejuvenations, vigils, blessings or any other magic I can possibly avoid. I depart, I have an exp penalty, and I'm fine with that, it's not easy, but it's reasonable. The only magic I'm forced to deal with is uncurse on trapped boxes, because as far as I can tell that curse never expires (I gave up after 4 days of waiting).
I don't do incorporeal undead because I won't get my weapons blessed. I think it "sucks" but I can't honestly think of a justifcation based on current undead theory about how a nonmagic item could hit undead. If I do, THEN I'll complain.
Now if there was the same situation with healing, I'd be fine with it. But like I mentioned in the original posts, the only current non-magic solution to severe wounds is death. That's a bit much. There are currently existing precendents for non-magic healing: herbs, Dokt, a couple crazy potions and unguents for the old days, and natural healing.
If you disagree, I'd be happy to debate it on the merits of logical conversation, game theory and place of the barbarian guild as advocates of non-magic. I only cater to fallacious exaggerations out of sheer annoyance, but not for long.
>>GODKIN's post
....? I seem to have missed the point of that post. Are you in support of it, or against it?
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
And....? You're right, transferrence isn't magical, I mean it's a supernatural extension of what people can already do like..... errr.... that thingie with the..... Hey I've got an idea, if its not a more powerful or "heroic" exaggeration of something people in the real world can do, lets call it "maaaaaaagic." Funny that. Oh oh oh, no one is good at finding woodland paths in the real word, or being really quiet and hard to see.... and those glyphs of warding? The police officer who lives down the street does that all the time.
I love sarcasm, it's so fun and gets no one anywhere. Shall we continue? Like I said, in my opinion, any powers that are not heroic exaggerations of realistic activities, they fall under "magic." Regardless of whether they actually manipulate lines of mana. I'm not going to debate cleric abilites because that's a can of worms I don't even want to go near.
For whatever it matters, no I don't get raises, rejuvenations, vigils, blessings or any other magic I can possibly avoid. I depart, I have an exp penalty, and I'm fine with that, it's not easy, but it's reasonable. The only magic I'm forced to deal with is uncurse on trapped boxes, because as far as I can tell that curse never expires (I gave up after 4 days of waiting).
I don't do incorporeal undead because I won't get my weapons blessed. I think it "sucks" but I can't honestly think of a justifcation based on current undead theory about how a nonmagic item could hit undead. If I do, THEN I'll complain.
Now if there was the same situation with healing, I'd be fine with it. But like I mentioned in the original posts, the only current non-magic solution to severe wounds is death. That's a bit much. There are currently existing precendents for non-magic healing: herbs, Dokt, a couple crazy potions and unguents for the old days, and natural healing.
If you disagree, I'd be happy to debate it on the merits of logical conversation, game theory and place of the barbarian guild as advocates of non-magic. I only cater to fallacious exaggerations out of sheer annoyance, but not for long.
>>GODKIN's post
....? I seem to have missed the point of that post. Are you in support of it, or against it?
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
DANFORDS2
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 02:06 AM CDT
>in my opinion, any powers that are not heroic exaggerations of realistic activities, they fall under "magic."
While most of us understand your opinion, "magic" has a very specific definition and system in DragonRealms. Transference is not magical within the world of DragonRealms.
Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
While most of us understand your opinion, "magic" has a very specific definition and system in DragonRealms. Transference is not magical within the world of DragonRealms.
Elemancer Opieus, Journeyman Warrior Mage of Elanthia
>Aren't I pretty, now fall down on my ice, fool! ~ Axillus
JMF90
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 07:14 AM CDT
I'm not clear on why NPC empathic healing is less magical than PC empathic healing.
DGUTHRIE2
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 07:14 AM CDT
As I said in my original post... You can choose to roleplay your barbarian in whatever manner you desire. I was merely pointing out that getting healed by an empath is NOT magical, just like many other guild specific abilities are NOT magical, and if you would like to take it to the extreme, then barbarian dances, roars, and berserks are the equivalent to the empathic "magic" of transferring wounds.
Opieus said it much more succinctly than I did.
Enjoy your anti-magic crusade. I don't imagine there will be many that travel that path with you, but that's the beauty of DragonRealms... You can train and roleplay your character in any manner you choose.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
Opieus said it much more succinctly than I did.
Enjoy your anti-magic crusade. I don't imagine there will be many that travel that path with you, but that's the beauty of DragonRealms... You can train and roleplay your character in any manner you choose.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
LOFTONM1
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 12:43 PM CDT
>>Enchanting: I suspect even mentioning this is going to derail this entire topic, but here we go. As of my reading so far, everyone is going to have access to all creation, except of course us non-magic folk are missing out on anything requiring magic. So I propose this: there should be a type of craft that people with magic can't do.
This will fall under Enchanting. Conceptually, the GMs originally had plans for like 3 dozen distinct systems but after looking at the code it was found out that mechanically there was only room for about 7 or so were each one to have its own skill. So, the Great Compromise was to make the creation skills generic umbrellas able to work for and make sense in the use of multiple related systems. Thus, Enchanting has absolutely lost it's connotation as a magic-exclusive imbuing-items-with-power skill in favor of a definition that also includes inner fire and other non-mana forms of mystic power.
True, you will not be able to enchant magical items. You will, of course, have the potential to enchant IF-compatible items. They obviously have not decided this issue, but they have already said that if this is approved it would be under the Enchanting umbrella.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
This will fall under Enchanting. Conceptually, the GMs originally had plans for like 3 dozen distinct systems but after looking at the code it was found out that mechanically there was only room for about 7 or so were each one to have its own skill. So, the Great Compromise was to make the creation skills generic umbrellas able to work for and make sense in the use of multiple related systems. Thus, Enchanting has absolutely lost it's connotation as a magic-exclusive imbuing-items-with-power skill in favor of a definition that also includes inner fire and other non-mana forms of mystic power.
True, you will not be able to enchant magical items. You will, of course, have the potential to enchant IF-compatible items. They obviously have not decided this issue, but they have already said that if this is approved it would be under the Enchanting umbrella.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
RAIST
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 01:52 PM CDT
>>I'm not clear on why NPC empathic healing is less magical than PC empathic healing.
Dokt uses ointments.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Dokt uses ointments.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
RAIST
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 02:58 PM CDT
>>While most of us understand your opinion, "magic" has a very specific definition and system in DragonRealms. Transference is not magical within the world of DragonRealms.
You are taking an OOC system distinction and trying to bring it into IC perspectives.
You could, make the arguement that Empathy is magical, as PERCEIVE HEALTH, which is unarguably part of the Empath transferrance/link type ability set, teaches and uses Power Perception skill, a magical one.
Manipulate: Empath skill, invokes creature Magic Resistance.
Empathic Shock: Directly affects spellcasting.
In addition, I would argue that Empathy's inclusion in the Lore skillset has nothing to do with its nature and everything to do with it being the Empath primary skillset.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
You are taking an OOC system distinction and trying to bring it into IC perspectives.
You could, make the arguement that Empathy is magical, as PERCEIVE HEALTH, which is unarguably part of the Empath transferrance/link type ability set, teaches and uses Power Perception skill, a magical one.
Manipulate: Empath skill, invokes creature Magic Resistance.
Empathic Shock: Directly affects spellcasting.
In addition, I would argue that Empathy's inclusion in the Lore skillset has nothing to do with its nature and everything to do with it being the Empath primary skillset.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
XOSS
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 03:05 PM CDT
>>You are taking an OOC system distinction and trying to bring it into IC perspectives.
>>You could, make the arguement that Empathy is magical, as PERCEIVE HEALTH, which is unarguably part of the Empath transferrance/link type ability set, teaches and uses Power Perception skill, a magical one.
>>Manipulate: Empath skill, invokes creature Magic Resistance.
>>Empathic Shock: Directly affects spellcasting.
>>In addition, I would argue that Empathy's inclusion in the Lore skillset has nothing to do with its nature and everything to do with it being the Empath primary skillset.
You can call it what ever you want according to the Game Masters Transference is not Magic, supernatural yes but still not magic. In Dragon Realms while all Magic is Supernatural not all that is Supernatural is Magic. There are several Barbarian abilities that are Supernatural but not Magic just like transference.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
>>You could, make the arguement that Empathy is magical, as PERCEIVE HEALTH, which is unarguably part of the Empath transferrance/link type ability set, teaches and uses Power Perception skill, a magical one.
>>Manipulate: Empath skill, invokes creature Magic Resistance.
>>Empathic Shock: Directly affects spellcasting.
>>In addition, I would argue that Empathy's inclusion in the Lore skillset has nothing to do with its nature and everything to do with it being the Empath primary skillset.
You can call it what ever you want according to the Game Masters Transference is not Magic, supernatural yes but still not magic. In Dragon Realms while all Magic is Supernatural not all that is Supernatural is Magic. There are several Barbarian abilities that are Supernatural but not Magic just like transference.
---Thya Telle
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
DOUGLASSE1
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 03:21 PM CDT
>> Empathic Shock: Directly affects spellcasting.
It's important to note that not all Empath spells are negatively impacted by being shocked. The implication: Empathic sensitivity is required to fuel some forms of Life magic, but Life magic is not necessary to fuel Empathic feats.
Kudos to your character concept that you shun all form of Empathic healing, but it's my understanding that Empathy is a trait inherent in all Elanthians -- you merely do not have the ability to take wounds from others because you have desensitized yourself to your inherent Empathy so that you can bring pain and destruction to your foes and whatnot.
In the world of Elanthia, Empathy... the ability to feel the pain of others, and then use that ability to further take the wounds of others for yourself... is natural, not magical. It's as natural to the world of Elanthia as S'Kra Mur, Gor'Togs, and Prydaen, none of which exist in our real world. It would make as much sense to me if you were to swear off playing anything but a Human Barbarian -- by my understanding of your logic, a Kaldar could be a "heroic" extension of a natural human form, but a Gor'Tog? That's just wacky... you don't see Gor'Togs walking down the street, ergo, they're magical. :P
Anyway, you can obviously play your character as being ignorant as to the true nature of Empathy as non-magical, and I agree with your general point that it should be possible to heal all wounds ultimately without Empathic assistance, but the prevailing lore of the DR Elanthian universe puts Empathy on the same level as Roars, Berserks, and Dances -- clearly supernatural by our RL understanding, but not "magic" in a way that Barbarians find so abrasive to their burning mojo.
-- Reike
It's important to note that not all Empath spells are negatively impacted by being shocked. The implication: Empathic sensitivity is required to fuel some forms of Life magic, but Life magic is not necessary to fuel Empathic feats.
Kudos to your character concept that you shun all form of Empathic healing, but it's my understanding that Empathy is a trait inherent in all Elanthians -- you merely do not have the ability to take wounds from others because you have desensitized yourself to your inherent Empathy so that you can bring pain and destruction to your foes and whatnot.
In the world of Elanthia, Empathy... the ability to feel the pain of others, and then use that ability to further take the wounds of others for yourself... is natural, not magical. It's as natural to the world of Elanthia as S'Kra Mur, Gor'Togs, and Prydaen, none of which exist in our real world. It would make as much sense to me if you were to swear off playing anything but a Human Barbarian -- by my understanding of your logic, a Kaldar could be a "heroic" extension of a natural human form, but a Gor'Tog? That's just wacky... you don't see Gor'Togs walking down the street, ergo, they're magical. :P
Anyway, you can obviously play your character as being ignorant as to the true nature of Empathy as non-magical, and I agree with your general point that it should be possible to heal all wounds ultimately without Empathic assistance, but the prevailing lore of the DR Elanthian universe puts Empathy on the same level as Roars, Berserks, and Dances -- clearly supernatural by our RL understanding, but not "magic" in a way that Barbarians find so abrasive to their burning mojo.
-- Reike
DIVINEWIND
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 03:40 PM CDT
>>You can call it what ever you want according to the Game Masters Transference is not Magic, supernatural yes but still not magic. In Dragon Realms while all Magic is Supernatural not all that is Supernatural is Magic. There are several Barbarian abilities that are Supernatural but not Magic just like transference.
This needed to be said again.
It is certainly fine to RP not wanting to get healed by an empath due to the perception that it might be evil magic - however it is important to note that regardless of what the character's perception is, at the end of the day, transferring a wound is not "magic" in the same sense that lightning bolt is magic.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
This needed to be said again.
It is certainly fine to RP not wanting to get healed by an empath due to the perception that it might be evil magic - however it is important to note that regardless of what the character's perception is, at the end of the day, transferring a wound is not "magic" in the same sense that lightning bolt is magic.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
ZIMPLYBEST
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 04:11 PM CDT
At some point I think a person's RP needs to flex to meet game mechanics rather then have mechanics flex to meet someones RP. Adding a lot of full service herbs/ointments steals from a guilds primary focus. Akin to making a NPC Cleric you can drag your friend to that gets raised, or an NPC Cleric that blesses any weapon you give to him.
Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!
Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!
LOFTONM1
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 04:41 PM CDT
>>I'm not clear on why NPC empathic healing is less magical than PC empathic healing.
Dokt is either actually not an empath, or is an empath choosing to not use his empathic abilities in favor of herbs/alchemical mixtures.
His relationship to the rest of us is about like a warmage preferring to use an ilmenite wand (LB wand?) instead of using magic to call down the lightning bolt directly.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
Dokt is either actually not an empath, or is an empath choosing to not use his empathic abilities in favor of herbs/alchemical mixtures.
His relationship to the rest of us is about like a warmage preferring to use an ilmenite wand (LB wand?) instead of using magic to call down the lightning bolt directly.
J'Lo, I'm a ranger.. I'd believe anything.....
The Manipulation List -- http://symphaena.com/index.html
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 05:13 PM CDT
>>It's important to note that not all Empath spells are negatively impacted by being shocked. The implication: Empathic sensitivity is required to fuel some forms of Life magic, but Life magic is not necessary to fuel Empathic feats.
If it's just an implication, I'll go ahead and make it explicit. Yes, some Empath spells require access to empathic sensitivity to function.
All magic users have a confound, a force or attribute that is not itself magical but impacts how they use magic. Empathy is the Empath confound, just as Devotion is the Cleric confound. It's one of the major things that separates the single discipline of magic use into so many shapes and sizes.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
If it's just an implication, I'll go ahead and make it explicit. Yes, some Empath spells require access to empathic sensitivity to function.
All magic users have a confound, a force or attribute that is not itself magical but impacts how they use magic. Empathy is the Empath confound, just as Devotion is the Cleric confound. It's one of the major things that separates the single discipline of magic use into so many shapes and sizes.
-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre
JMF90
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 06:37 PM CDT
>Dokt uses ointments.
Those ointments must be magical if they heal missing limbs.
Those ointments must be magical if they heal missing limbs.
RAIST
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 08:03 PM CDT
I concede defeat then, though I severely dislike the narrowness of the definition of magic. Then again, it's a bit of a good thing. Now people can't complain if we suggests powerful barbarian abilities. As long as they don't use mana, they aren't magic.
>>Adding a lot of full service herbs/ointments steals from a guilds primary focus
Following that logic, please give up your weapons, that takes away from the Barbarian's focus. Oh, stealth too, ya know Rangers and Thieves. Time to close down the pawnshops, Traders and all that.
Before, I might have agreed with you, but then empaths got manipulation, guardian spirits, and perceive health. They are no longer forced to be cookie cutter healers relying solely on patients. We shouldn't be forced to be cookie cutter patients relying solely on empaths.
I don't believe it's unfair to ask for more options for severe wounds than: empath, npc empath, die.
>>Those ointments must be magical if they heal missing limbs.
I see a statement but no evidence.
I still dislike the damn curse traps.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
>>Adding a lot of full service herbs/ointments steals from a guilds primary focus
Following that logic, please give up your weapons, that takes away from the Barbarian's focus. Oh, stealth too, ya know Rangers and Thieves. Time to close down the pawnshops, Traders and all that.
Before, I might have agreed with you, but then empaths got manipulation, guardian spirits, and perceive health. They are no longer forced to be cookie cutter healers relying solely on patients. We shouldn't be forced to be cookie cutter patients relying solely on empaths.
I don't believe it's unfair to ask for more options for severe wounds than: empath, npc empath, die.
>>Those ointments must be magical if they heal missing limbs.
I see a statement but no evidence.
I still dislike the damn curse traps.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
JMF90
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 08:23 PM CDT
What I'm getting from your post is that you hate forced reliance on other players. And I agree with that completely. I just don't think the 'I hate magic' angle is going to get anything changed.
GODKIN
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 10:43 PM CDT
>...? I seem to have missed the point of that post. Are you in support of it, or against it?
I would like to see more uses for chakrel. I just wanted to add chakrel to everything I could think of in 20 seconds like how WM's did with the "Arcane" and "Elemental" titles some time ago.
If I were to spite my face, in my opinion, cutting off my nose would be a reasonably good start.
I would like to see more uses for chakrel. I just wanted to add chakrel to everything I could think of in 20 seconds like how WM's did with the "Arcane" and "Elemental" titles some time ago.
If I were to spite my face, in my opinion, cutting off my nose would be a reasonably good start.
VAWN
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/17/2008 11:17 PM CDT
>>Enjoy your anti-magic crusade. I don't imagine there will be many that travel that path with you
I am not taking any sides here, but I just wanted to say that I love this total non-magic RP and have borrowed ot for myself. I am as yet undecided on my personal stance on empathic healing and am using it thus far, but that may yet change. Anyhow thanks, Caraamon, for the inspiration.
>>They are no longer forced to be cookie cutter healers relying solely on patients. We shouldn't be forced to be cookie cutter patients relying solely on empaths.
I think this is well put and makes perfect sense. Magic or no magic.
--Player of many, master of none--
I am not taking any sides here, but I just wanted to say that I love this total non-magic RP and have borrowed ot for myself. I am as yet undecided on my personal stance on empathic healing and am using it thus far, but that may yet change. Anyhow thanks, Caraamon, for the inspiration.
>>They are no longer forced to be cookie cutter healers relying solely on patients. We shouldn't be forced to be cookie cutter patients relying solely on empaths.
I think this is well put and makes perfect sense. Magic or no magic.
--Player of many, master of none--
RAIST
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 03:26 AM CDT
For those who care, I'll state my IC reasons.
"Either you're a barbarian who simply avoids magic because it hurts your Inner Fire, or your a barbarian who refuses to use it as a crutch and should discard ALL magic trappings. Anything in between isn't a barbarian, it's a hypocrite. In my opinion, magic is the act of perverting the natural way of things in order to selfishly boost your own power. I refuse to be part of it, or to contribute to the problem. Even if letting Empaths heal me is not directly magic, they have to use it to fix themselves."
My out of character reasons? I like to be distinctive. I don't really care one way or another about magic, except to feel far too much of DR centers around it.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
"Either you're a barbarian who simply avoids magic because it hurts your Inner Fire, or your a barbarian who refuses to use it as a crutch and should discard ALL magic trappings. Anything in between isn't a barbarian, it's a hypocrite. In my opinion, magic is the act of perverting the natural way of things in order to selfishly boost your own power. I refuse to be part of it, or to contribute to the problem. Even if letting Empaths heal me is not directly magic, they have to use it to fix themselves."
My out of character reasons? I like to be distinctive. I don't really care one way or another about magic, except to feel far too much of DR centers around it.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
MEDWARDL1
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 07:27 AM CDT
i usualy rp my barb in a way in which he refuses to believe magic stuff that doesnt mess with my inner fire and that i actualy want use isnt actualy magic however things like gates ill only use if i have to or if im already dead.
DIVINEWIND
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 08:24 AM CDT
While I'm not as radical as my friend Caraamon I do agree there need to be options.
Medicines to rebuild limbs and the like. I'm all for being self sufficient. On that note, I'll bring up an idea I had a loooooong time ago.
Let us heat up our weapons and cauterize our wounds. It certainly doesn't heal anything - it just stops the bleeding and leaves you with some really wicked scarring.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
Medicines to rebuild limbs and the like. I'm all for being self sufficient. On that note, I'll bring up an idea I had a loooooong time ago.
Let us heat up our weapons and cauterize our wounds. It certainly doesn't heal anything - it just stops the bleeding and leaves you with some really wicked scarring.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
DGUTHRIE2
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 08:33 AM CDT
>>Let us heat up our weapons and cauterize our wounds. It certainly doesn't heal anything - it just stops the bleeding and leaves you with some really wicked scarring.<<
I really like this idea. Would you propose using IF to provide the heat source? I can see how this would work on external bleeders very easily by laying the flat of the heated blade on the wound, incurring a roundtime for doing so, then experiencing a temporary health or stamina loss, but the internal bleeder poses some challenges. Perhaps healing an internal bleeder requires you to puncture the skin, and when healed you have nasty internal AND external cauterization scars? Hmmmm. Very interesting.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
I really like this idea. Would you propose using IF to provide the heat source? I can see how this would work on external bleeders very easily by laying the flat of the heated blade on the wound, incurring a roundtime for doing so, then experiencing a temporary health or stamina loss, but the internal bleeder poses some challenges. Perhaps healing an internal bleeder requires you to puncture the skin, and when healed you have nasty internal AND external cauterization scars? Hmmmm. Very interesting.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 08:51 AM CDT
>>Would you propose using IF to provide the heat source?
While I am all for the expansion of inner fire applications beyond "combat self-buff," like ritual enchanting to allow Barbarians to make warpaint or to actively thwart magic to some degree, I think this might be taking the "fire" part of inner fire too literally. It's "fire" nature is a metaphor for inner strength and resolve, not evidence that this power can be used to ignite naphtha.
****
Seeing as a fully spelled-up Cleric is lit up like the bloody Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center, I really don't think anyone want to see more realistic stealth penalties applied to every spell that gives off some kind of light.
-IDONS-BUDDY
While I am all for the expansion of inner fire applications beyond "combat self-buff," like ritual enchanting to allow Barbarians to make warpaint or to actively thwart magic to some degree, I think this might be taking the "fire" part of inner fire too literally. It's "fire" nature is a metaphor for inner strength and resolve, not evidence that this power can be used to ignite naphtha.
****
Seeing as a fully spelled-up Cleric is lit up like the bloody Christmas tree at Rockefeller Center, I really don't think anyone want to see more realistic stealth penalties applied to every spell that gives off some kind of light.
-IDONS-BUDDY
CAROLINT
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 09:12 AM CDT
It would be rather hard to light a fire with a blade and flint if you only have one arm.
________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
________
________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
________
DIVINEWIND
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 09:16 AM CDT
>>It would be rather hard to light a fire with a blade and flint if you only have one arm.
I disagree. Grab some tinder. Embed your sword in the middle. Use one good hand to strike embedded sword with the flint and create the sparks needed to get a fire going. :D
Or you could always rush back to town, find a fire somewhere, heat up your sword and go to town.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
I disagree. Grab some tinder. Embed your sword in the middle. Use one good hand to strike embedded sword with the flint and create the sparks needed to get a fire going. :D
Or you could always rush back to town, find a fire somewhere, heat up your sword and go to town.
- Galren
>>The Rippentropps are a mysterious collective of well-known individuals whose primary charge is to initiate the advancing task of not stopping.
CAROLINT
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 09:28 AM CDT
I'm just saying that current mechanics don't really support that. I think it's a good idea though.
________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
________
________
"I for one welcome our new Lithping Overlordth."
________
VROTSOSJ
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/18/2008 07:43 PM CDT
I'd say believe in whatever you want as Caraamon, just ensure you're objective as a mentor.
I don't know how you handle that, but barbs do run quite the gambit and Caraamon is definitely on one extreme.
Other than that, it's good to argue things even if you're "wrong" or you "lose".
I am --- Navak
I don't know how you handle that, but barbs do run quite the gambit and Caraamon is definitely on one extreme.
Other than that, it's good to argue things even if you're "wrong" or you "lose".
I am --- Navak
EPICK
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/20/2008 01:10 AM CDT
So I thought I'd put this up to see Cara (who I DO consider a friend) argue with it. Agonar got up from his chair very recently and I was able to talk to him. So! For your consideration....
You say, "That brings up a question of my own that you could weigh in on, if you don't mind, boss."
>'Its kind of a recent debate in the winds of the guild.
You say, "Its kind of a recent debate in the winds of the guild."
>
Agonar says, "Go ahead."
>
Mekrurkanth finishes humming a confident ballad.
>'Empathic healing. Yes or no?
You ask, "Empathic healing. Yes or no?"
>
Agonar says, "There is nothing wrong with it at all."
>'In your oppinion.
You say, "In your oppinion."
>grin
You grin.
>
Agonar says, "If I detested it, they would be outside city gates with the other mages."
>lau
>
You laugh!
>
Mekrurkanth laughs!
>'I wish Caraamon coulda heard that.
You say, "I wish Caraamon coulda heard that."
>
Mekrurkanth smiles at you.
>'He'd probably debate it with you till you got tired and sat back down.
You say, "He'd probably debate it with you till you got tired and sat back down."
>sni
You snicker.
>
Agonar asks, "Is he the loud, green one that isn't Mo?"
>nod ago
You nod to Agonar.
>'That'd be him.
You say, "That'd be him."
~Asdiel
You ask, "Empathic healing. Yes or no?"
Agonar says, "There is nothing wrong with it at all."
Agonar says, "If I detested it, they would be outside city gates with the other mages."
You say, "That brings up a question of my own that you could weigh in on, if you don't mind, boss."
>'Its kind of a recent debate in the winds of the guild.
You say, "Its kind of a recent debate in the winds of the guild."
>
Agonar says, "Go ahead."
>
Mekrurkanth finishes humming a confident ballad.
>'Empathic healing. Yes or no?
You ask, "Empathic healing. Yes or no?"
>
Agonar says, "There is nothing wrong with it at all."
>'In your oppinion.
You say, "In your oppinion."
>grin
You grin.
>
Agonar says, "If I detested it, they would be outside city gates with the other mages."
>lau
>
You laugh!
>
Mekrurkanth laughs!
>'I wish Caraamon coulda heard that.
You say, "I wish Caraamon coulda heard that."
>
Mekrurkanth smiles at you.
>'He'd probably debate it with you till you got tired and sat back down.
You say, "He'd probably debate it with you till you got tired and sat back down."
>sni
You snicker.
>
Agonar asks, "Is he the loud, green one that isn't Mo?"
>nod ago
You nod to Agonar.
>'That'd be him.
You say, "That'd be him."
~Asdiel
You ask, "Empathic healing. Yes or no?"
Agonar says, "There is nothing wrong with it at all."
Agonar says, "If I detested it, they would be outside city gates with the other mages."
RAIST
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/20/2008 02:47 AM CDT
I'll put it this way:
I've had belches more powereful than the stuff Agonar teaches. Ask me if I care how he feels about empaths?
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
I've had belches more powereful than the stuff Agonar teaches. Ask me if I care how he feels about empaths?
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
BEVERAGEK
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/23/2008 01:19 AM CDT
Keep up the awesome RP Caraamon.
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
__
~Leilond - Working up to Galren and Mazrian
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/leicollagefinal.jpg
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com/bard_planner_v3.xls
WRAITH760
Re: Anti-Magic World
06/23/2008 02:29 AM CDT
<<I see a statement but no evidence.>>
It seems a bit silly to believe that there are naturally occurring sources of complete cellular regeneration, and that the only person who is hip to this is one Gor'Tog in Knife Clan. Dokt's messaging should probably be changed, or he shouldn't be able to regrow limbs.
<< My out of character reasons? I like to be distinctive. I don't really care one way or another about magic, except to feel far too much of DR centers around it. >>
That's a trope of the heroic fantasy genre, although Elanthia is not as extreme as some other examples, like, say, Faerun. Its not something you can really hope to avoid in most cases, unless you look for a setting which downplays it or goes a more Robert E. Howard route.
It seems a bit silly to believe that there are naturally occurring sources of complete cellular regeneration, and that the only person who is hip to this is one Gor'Tog in Knife Clan. Dokt's messaging should probably be changed, or he shouldn't be able to regrow limbs.
<< My out of character reasons? I like to be distinctive. I don't really care one way or another about magic, except to feel far too much of DR centers around it. >>
That's a trope of the heroic fantasy genre, although Elanthia is not as extreme as some other examples, like, say, Faerun. Its not something you can really hope to avoid in most cases, unless you look for a setting which downplays it or goes a more Robert E. Howard route.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Anti-Magic World
07/06/2008 06:47 AM CDT
<<It seems a bit silly to believe that there are naturally occurring sources of complete cellular regeneration, and that the only person who is hip to this is one Gor'Tog in Knife Clan. Dokt's messaging should probably be changed, or he shouldn't be able to regrow limbs.>>
Dokt is just an example of what we are going to be able to do once alchemy craft system comes out, he has it figured out. But not teaching anyone else until he got his retirement fund in order.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Dokt is just an example of what we are going to be able to do once alchemy craft system comes out, he has it figured out. But not teaching anyone else until he got his retirement fund in order.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
GODKIN
Re: Anti-Magic World
07/06/2008 01:30 PM CDT
>Dokt is just an example of what we are going to be able to do once alchemy craft system comes out, he has it figured out. But not teaching anyone else until he got his retirement fund in order.
No, he still has a ton of herbs from BETA that still work the way herbs should work.
>warn DragonRealms interact
*
* Connection to the game has been dropped.
*
No, he still has a ton of herbs from BETA that still work the way herbs should work.
>warn DragonRealms interact
*
* Connection to the game has been dropped.
*
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Anti-Magic World
07/07/2008 05:28 PM CDT
Personally, I'd say that mages have it a little too easy. From what I've heard/read (and I do see the reasoning behind it) the excuse that "magic" can do whatever it wants is used quite a bit. A little too much, in my opinion.
Thieves have it pretty bad... they don't get BMR. True, they get stealth, but there are plenty of anti-stealth abilities out there - many of which I'd bet money take MR into account over anything else.
One tweak I'd like to see is for the intel and wis penalties of 'zerks to go away... the abilities BOOST BMR but reduce two attributes that account for a large part of actual MR. Another way to make 'zerks more desirable, since by all accounts I've heard they are generally shunned in favor of dances at higher circles.
Anyway, just my two cents for now.
Every broken enemy will know
That their opponent had to be invincible;
Take a last look around while you're alive,
I'm an indestructible Master of War!
~Disturbed: Indestructible, unofficial Barbarian Theme Song. YouTube it.
Thieves have it pretty bad... they don't get BMR. True, they get stealth, but there are plenty of anti-stealth abilities out there - many of which I'd bet money take MR into account over anything else.
One tweak I'd like to see is for the intel and wis penalties of 'zerks to go away... the abilities BOOST BMR but reduce two attributes that account for a large part of actual MR. Another way to make 'zerks more desirable, since by all accounts I've heard they are generally shunned in favor of dances at higher circles.
Anyway, just my two cents for now.
Every broken enemy will know
That their opponent had to be invincible;
Take a last look around while you're alive,
I'm an indestructible Master of War!
~Disturbed: Indestructible, unofficial Barbarian Theme Song. YouTube it.
DGUTHRIE2
Re: Anti-Magic World
07/07/2008 09:11 PM CDT
>>Thieves have it pretty bad... they don't get BMR. <<
Not true. EVERY character regardless of guild has some degree of BMR. Put a 20th circle warmie in a room with a 120th thief and the warmie will find his spells fizzling.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
Not true. EVERY character regardless of guild has some degree of BMR. Put a 20th circle warmie in a room with a 120th thief and the warmie will find his spells fizzling.
Life is too short to drink cheap beer.
MARTINCOTY77
Re: Anti-Magic World
07/07/2008 10:14 PM CDT
<<Not true. EVERY character regardless of guild has some degree of BMR. Put a 20th circle warmie in a room with a 120th thief and the warmie will find his spells fizzling.>>
Not true. EVERY character regardless of guild has some degree of MR. Put a 20th circle warmie in a room with a 120th thief and the warmie will find his spells fizzling.
fixed.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
Not true. EVERY character regardless of guild has some degree of MR. Put a 20th circle warmie in a room with a 120th thief and the warmie will find his spells fizzling.
fixed.
Vote DR as TOP MUD: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-cemm.html
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Anti-Magic World
07/07/2008 11:40 PM CDT
Yeah, I was referring to the B part of BMR ;)
I know my thief was having less problems with magic users after training up disc for the new khri/concentration, but they won't see as much resistance as a barb of equivalent stats/circle/whatever goes into normal MR.
Every broken enemy will know
That their opponent had to be invincible;
Take a last look around while you're alive,
I'm an indestructible Master of War!
~Disturbed: Indestructible, unofficial Barbarian Theme Song. YouTube it.
I know my thief was having less problems with magic users after training up disc for the new khri/concentration, but they won't see as much resistance as a barb of equivalent stats/circle/whatever goes into normal MR.
Every broken enemy will know
That their opponent had to be invincible;
Take a last look around while you're alive,
I'm an indestructible Master of War!
~Disturbed: Indestructible, unofficial Barbarian Theme Song. YouTube it.
