I'm not sure why people think ranged is bad on a zerk barb either, as long as you keep a buckler as your arm-worn shield.

I've also never had an issue when I need to leave. If the battle isn't going well, I add another zerk, kill all the mobs and leave.

I'm already well aware of all the arguments from people who think dancing is the only way to go at the high end. And again, I also have a decently-trained dancing barb. I'm switching over to zerks because I'm interested in seeing whether that spec can shine now, especially since a combat rewrite may change things even more in favor of it. Sure you can zerk and dance, but since we don't know exactly the formula for zerk duration and effectiveness, you don't know what you're losing compared to if you went 100% into the spec. Some people have complained about a drop in zerk effectiveness and duration with more discipline. Even if we assumed the penalty was on a three-way threshold level, and not linear per discipline point, it still needs testing.

It's a long time before Barbs can dance dragon back-to-back. If zerks offer a somewhat more continuous progression, and if there is a way to make it effective at the high end-- it is totally worth it. As for the big PVP weakness, I'll use the OP abilities on my cleric for PvP, or my other barb.

>>I think people sorely underestimate the way my character performs or possibly overestimate the bad points of berzerking and having low mentals.<<

No, we've just been there and have gone past that already. What kind of pulse sizes do you see in the 480s?

>>I don't know why it would make someone horrible at using ranged weapons, I don't tend to have an issue with it. Heavy Crossbow allows me to stand at melee using an arm-worn shield and I can brawl while aiming. <<

Eagle provides a boost, letting you hit harder. More hard hits=faster locking. Eagle with a stick bow and more than 201 ranks of that bow lets you dual load and hit twice in less time with one fire.

>>As for open rolls, I've been killed once in celps by an open roll, but that's it, and it would have done it whether I was dancing dragon or berzerking stone. After learning 80 ranks from celps, one death isn't too bad. Usually stone can take out the damage and make open rolls lowered to a light bleeder hit and high stamina keeps me from being stunned. In fact, I usually have a single bleeder once every couple of days and that's the worst of it. I can't remember the last time I was stunned in combat or beaten down other than that one random open roll.<<

That changes very quickly. The next few steps up the critter ladder all open roll fairly often, especially super celps. The penalties to perception will come back to bite you against dillos.

>>Not sure why people think high strength is useless, though, that's confusing to me. At only 439 ranks of 2HE I can almost always one-shot celps swinging a 102 stone greatsword at minimum rt without the use of any abilities and never feeling any fatigue. With 477 perception, I don't have issues searching out people around my level even with bad mentals, either. <<

One shotting critters isn't the best way to lock weapons or defenses. I can do it also if I wanted to, I'd rather get 3-4 big hits per critter and get more experience then one shot a critter and potentially have to wait for more to come in.

>>PROS: Can hunt above level with 4 creatures easily without taking damage, can kill things in very few hits, don't take stuns, very rarely killed, higher combat stats circle for circle than most<<

None of those are pros to strictly berserking. I was able to overhunt all day as well. I can kill things in very few hits, don't take stuns, very rarely killed and can swap what bonuses I want when I want without possible death with the berserk wearing off.

>>CONS: BMR is lower than it could be with higher mentals as they count twice as much as physical stats, I don't learn as quickly as someone with high mentals, can't retreat when desired, not as viable for PVP due to stealths/no retreat<<

You forgot you can't switch which bonuses you want when you want.

>>For comparison purposes, it really should be (any combo of zerks that is sustainable here) vs (any non-dragon dance), as Dragon dance isn't infinitely sustainable. However, when most people compare zerks to high-end dances, they usually tend to compare it to dragon dance.<<

Yeah I'm not comparing them to Dragon. Overall, dances are more easily swapped when needed and provide far better benefits.

>>I'm really curious to know if Eagle let's you hit harder than if you would have taken those points spent in disc, and put them in agility and strength, and then zerk on top of that for added damage. This is an empirical question ;)<<

Two arrows>one arrow. The zerk doesn't add anywhere near the rank boost Eagle does. It doesn't allow dual load which makes locking up ranged very easy.

>>Dancers can't stack bonuses when they want.<<

No, but I can change what bonuses I want given the situation. I don't ever need a strength or stamina boost so I won't use bear. I don't always need a stealths boost so I don't always need Panther up. I don't always need a melee boost so Cobra doesn't need to be up. But when I do need to swap I can. Berserkers can't.

Bah, I had this all written up then I find out Pendus posted basically the same thing. Oh well, here it is anyway...

<<I think people sorely underestimate the way my character performs or possibly overestimate the bad points of berzerking and having low mentals.>>

Doubt it, I've been there. It's horrible for PvP, decent for PvE. I imagine the low mentals are hurting more than you think - out of curiosity, what are the pulse sizes for some of your skills?

<<I don't know why it would make someone horrible at using ranged weapons>>

No direct boost to ranged offense means you have to work harder than a dancer at locking any ranged skill. I too train HX, and trust me, eagle makes it much easier to lock.

<<As for open rolls, I've been killed once in celps by an open roll, but that's it>>

Same here, using heavy plate armor and dancing.

<<Can hunt above level with 4 creatures easily without taking damage, can kill things in very few hits, don't take stuns, very rarely killed, higher combat stats circle for circle than most>>

You pretty much described my Barbarian, though mine is less geared toward PvE/physicals and more toward PvP/balanced stats.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning_kruger_effect

>>As for open rolls, I've been killed once in celps by an open roll, but that's it, and it would have done it whether I was dancing dragon or berzerking stone.

Did you get to Celps before or after they made the change to open rolls? That makes a HUGE difference.

::duckface::

You two don't seem to understand what Eagle and Dragon provides for ranged weapons, especially at higher levels. If you are always berserking then... yes, you may miss a 150-200 rank boost with your ranged weapon (and it gets even higher than that).

Of course if you are only hunting critters for your entire DR career without socializing then you don't need to see the benefit dances provide to ranged weapons. I thought I said that already.

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Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.

-GM Abasha

I love berserks for some of the stuff they provide.....

But nothing that barbarians have competes with eagles ranged boost....it actually makes using sling slightly more bearable. (just three notches under the bearable line instead of 5) >:

BTW: Dual load slings please!


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<<Can hunt above level with 4 creatures easily without taking damage, can kill things in very few hits, don't take stuns, very rarely killed, higher combat stats circle for circle than most>>

>You pretty much described my Barbarian, though mine is less geared toward PvE/physicals and more toward PvP/balanced stats.

Same, though 100% geared towards PvP and wears leather.

>But how severe is that reduction?

I suspect it's not quite that simple, but based on hindrance, rather that armor type specifically.

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Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi, Gor'Tog Barbarian
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
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Blunts for Sale:
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>Fair enough. I assume the plate penalties make it impossible to train stealths without disarming first, regardless of the dance penalties?

Loaded question. Without passive buffs, beyond ~500 ranks the contest breaks down and you're pretty much forced to partake in some type of roundabout ballyhoo in order to train stealths. Retreat to pole/missile, remove armor, dance panther, etc.

>Loaded question. Without passive buffs, beyond ~500 ranks the contest breaks down and you're pretty much forced to partake in some type of roundabout ballyhoo in order to train stealths. Retreat to pole/missile, remove armor, dance panther, etc.

Not deliberately so. So what you're saying is that pre 500 ranks (and I'll say post 100ish, just to get the noob ranks done), one can honestly use stealths while wearing HP/LP without getting naked? I doubt any of my characters will ever hit the 500 rank mark in anything.

By your statement that 'it applies regardless of armor', does this mean I can use plate without really worrying about the penalties it applies? Since apparently I'm going to need a workaround at some point anyway.

If so, why don't more barbs use plate?

Does stealth hinderance have armor mixing penalties? (I am assuming no)

....if my assumption is correct than mixing several armors, lets just say HP, LP, Leather and Cloth would have less stealth hinderance than a full HP, LP setup?


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>>....if my assumption is correct than mixing several armors, lets just say HP, LP, Leather and Cloth would have less stealth hinderance than a full HP, LP setup?

Yes, but there's a point where it just becomes implausible anyway, somewhere around fair stealth hindrance. I haven't really found any armor combination that teaches plate and allows me to hide in combat that doesn't involve swapping out plate greaves.

Huh. I may have to consider swapping to plate then. Anyone recommend pre-100 ranks good store HP/LP setup?