Magic exp has gotten much, much, much better since the last time I tested. Debilitation is non-existent and TM is still extremely slow to non-existent for me, but all the rest work great. I didn't test arcana because I am under the impression it hasn't been messed with yet.
One minor comment for consideration though..
It seems like the exp is scaled to spike heavily with higher challenge (i.e. cast high, cast fast), but it would be nice if there was a minimum floor for casting capped spells. For instance, I get virtually no experience for casting 100 mana CV or Shadows, even at very low prep times. If there was a minimum exp of 2-3 mind states for high mana casts (relative to the skill of the caster), regardless of the prep timing, it would help out people who aren't really min maxing their casting and just want a decent little pool over the course of their spelling up.
MOCKERJB
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Quick recent testing note
08/14/2012 01:04 PM CDT
Certainly something to talk about.
The main thing is, if you can swiftly cast a spell at max mana... doesn't that imply that it's kind of beneath you as far as challenges go? The main idea behind experience is that you get experience for things that challenge you, and by the time you're pumping 100 mana into a bless, you've probably (conceptually) learned all you can from that spell.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
The main thing is, if you can swiftly cast a spell at max mana... doesn't that imply that it's kind of beneath you as far as challenges go? The main idea behind experience is that you get experience for things that challenge you, and by the time you're pumping 100 mana into a bless, you've probably (conceptually) learned all you can from that spell.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Quick recent testing note
08/14/2012 01:25 PM CDT
>>The main thing is, if you can swiftly cast a spell at max mana... doesn't that imply that it's kind of beneath you as far as challenges go?
In fairness, no one stops learning weapons just because they can swing the heaviest weapon as fast as possible. But I also recognize that many spells don't exactly have a "casting on an at-level target" check.
That said (and with the assumption that this isn't happening already), I'd love to see magic work similarly to how first aid currently works: where you get exp over time while a spell persists. This would drive people away from casting spells just for the sake of casting spells, and encourage people to push themselves to the limit to get the most out of every spell.
I'd also assume this could help discourage people from spamming spells over and over just for the sake of training, because like first aid you wouldn't get more exp for casting the spell again (on the same target, at least) until a certain amount of time passes.
I also like the idea of knowing that training debilitation won't amount to having to cast a full range of disablers on as many targets as possible (which seems to be counter to how combat in 3.0 has been directed so far - with more one on one prolonged battles), but instead really focusing on placing disablers on the target you're currently battling and getting exp as the battle goes on.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
In fairness, no one stops learning weapons just because they can swing the heaviest weapon as fast as possible. But I also recognize that many spells don't exactly have a "casting on an at-level target" check.
That said (and with the assumption that this isn't happening already), I'd love to see magic work similarly to how first aid currently works: where you get exp over time while a spell persists. This would drive people away from casting spells just for the sake of casting spells, and encourage people to push themselves to the limit to get the most out of every spell.
I'd also assume this could help discourage people from spamming spells over and over just for the sake of training, because like first aid you wouldn't get more exp for casting the spell again (on the same target, at least) until a certain amount of time passes.
I also like the idea of knowing that training debilitation won't amount to having to cast a full range of disablers on as many targets as possible (which seems to be counter to how combat in 3.0 has been directed so far - with more one on one prolonged battles), but instead really focusing on placing disablers on the target you're currently battling and getting exp as the battle goes on.
"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2
AMONAMARTH
Re: Quick recent testing note
08/14/2012 01:32 PM CDT
Or perhaps conceptually, if someone is very wise and/or intelligent, perhaps they can do something swiftly and still pick up on minute issues that would benefit them. I think there are tons of examples that could be given for (probably) both sides.
- Tyr, player of
SEND[Wilidore] Dude! You beat DR!
- Tyr, player of
SEND[Wilidore] Dude! You beat DR!
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Quick recent testing note
08/14/2012 05:53 PM CDT
>>But I also recognize that many spells don't exactly have a "casting on an at-level target" check.
This. You DO stop learning weapons when you stop being challenged, and the only approximation of challenge for ward/aug/util spells is the difficulty of the cast.
>>I'd love to see magic work similarly to how first aid currently works: where you get exp over time while a spell persists. This would drive people away from casting spells just for the sake of casting spells, and encourage people to push themselves to the limit to get the most out of every spell.
Yes and no. To make spells teach the way FA does would basically mean people could cast one aug, one ward, and one util spell and just ride out their durations and get a whole bunch of experience for doing nothing but being logged in. It turns out exactly like humming, where if you don't have a spell riding at all times you're doing it wrong. Then, you end with a scenario where a war mage can keep 3+ primary skills running with very very minimal effort, which in turn gives us a very verbose version of ProgressQuest.
In general, the 'do once, learn for a while' model is one that is likely to become less prevalent, and not more. We want to avoid making changes that make it easier for the casual player and WAY easier for the hardcore player.
Disablers don't at the moment care which target you're hitting, so long as it's a challenge. It's likely that diminishing returns will end up being added so that you can't just find a good target and chain-debuff him until you're ML'd, because that's another flavor of silly.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
This. You DO stop learning weapons when you stop being challenged, and the only approximation of challenge for ward/aug/util spells is the difficulty of the cast.
>>I'd love to see magic work similarly to how first aid currently works: where you get exp over time while a spell persists. This would drive people away from casting spells just for the sake of casting spells, and encourage people to push themselves to the limit to get the most out of every spell.
Yes and no. To make spells teach the way FA does would basically mean people could cast one aug, one ward, and one util spell and just ride out their durations and get a whole bunch of experience for doing nothing but being logged in. It turns out exactly like humming, where if you don't have a spell riding at all times you're doing it wrong. Then, you end with a scenario where a war mage can keep 3+ primary skills running with very very minimal effort, which in turn gives us a very verbose version of ProgressQuest.
In general, the 'do once, learn for a while' model is one that is likely to become less prevalent, and not more. We want to avoid making changes that make it easier for the casual player and WAY easier for the hardcore player.
Disablers don't at the moment care which target you're hitting, so long as it's a challenge. It's likely that diminishing returns will end up being added so that you can't just find a good target and chain-debuff him until you're ML'd, because that's another flavor of silly.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
MOCKERJB
Re: Quick recent testing note
08/28/2012 10:47 PM CDT
Sorry for the very late reply, been away a bit myself lately.
<<The main thing is, if you can swiftly cast a spell at max mana... doesn't that imply that it's kind of beneath you as far as challenges go? The main idea behind experience is that you get experience for things that challenge you, and by the time you're pumping 100 mana into a bless, you've probably (conceptually) learned all you can from that spell.>>
Yes, I definitely agree, but at the higher skill levels, it becomes the case where there are very, very few spells that are challenging enough to learn from, even with the nerf to casting. I'm not suggesting that casting those capped spells is a *good" way to learn, just that you learn something from it. Basically, I think that fully spelling up (i.e. casting capped spells, at any prep time) should leave the caster with a 2-4 step exp pool, regardless of whether they outclass the casting challenge. For those more skilled, they can adjust their casting time to optimize learning. For those lesser skilled, they will learn better by default challenge design. Maybe it's too complicated, since you'd have to add a timer to the casts to prevent higher skilled casters from abusing the floor exp, although I seriously doubt that's an issue with mana availability making it very difficult to snap cast 100 mana spells.
The current set-up leaves anyone with 900+ magic (at least in the MM spellbook) with a very limited set of spells, and strategies, for learning any magic at all. This problem is exacerbated by the need to have at least one spell in each new spell skill capable of teaching. Maybe it's the case that there ends up being just one "super-tough-shear-like" spell in each spell skill, or maybe there already is and I just haven't found them all, but it seems to be that adding a floor to exp for varying spell difficulties might add some measure of flexibility in learning tiny bits during regular spell casting. Just an idea anyway, I really like the new system overall and how it's shaping up.
<<The main thing is, if you can swiftly cast a spell at max mana... doesn't that imply that it's kind of beneath you as far as challenges go? The main idea behind experience is that you get experience for things that challenge you, and by the time you're pumping 100 mana into a bless, you've probably (conceptually) learned all you can from that spell.>>
Yes, I definitely agree, but at the higher skill levels, it becomes the case where there are very, very few spells that are challenging enough to learn from, even with the nerf to casting. I'm not suggesting that casting those capped spells is a *good" way to learn, just that you learn something from it. Basically, I think that fully spelling up (i.e. casting capped spells, at any prep time) should leave the caster with a 2-4 step exp pool, regardless of whether they outclass the casting challenge. For those more skilled, they can adjust their casting time to optimize learning. For those lesser skilled, they will learn better by default challenge design. Maybe it's too complicated, since you'd have to add a timer to the casts to prevent higher skilled casters from abusing the floor exp, although I seriously doubt that's an issue with mana availability making it very difficult to snap cast 100 mana spells.
The current set-up leaves anyone with 900+ magic (at least in the MM spellbook) with a very limited set of spells, and strategies, for learning any magic at all. This problem is exacerbated by the need to have at least one spell in each new spell skill capable of teaching. Maybe it's the case that there ends up being just one "super-tough-shear-like" spell in each spell skill, or maybe there already is and I just haven't found them all, but it seems to be that adding a floor to exp for varying spell difficulties might add some measure of flexibility in learning tiny bits during regular spell casting. Just an idea anyway, I really like the new system overall and how it's shaping up.
