The armor hindrance thing seems a little too harsh to me at the moment. I went up more than a full range of hindrance (low-end fairly to some indeterminate spot in the moderate range, somewhat hindered if I remove the shield), and I don't consider my armor skill to be unusually far behind evasion. The difference that does exist is simply due to skillset arrangement (armor tertiary, survival secondary). I understand wanting to penalize those who neglect armor training, but as it stands it feels like I'm being doubly penalized for being armor tertiary. Not only can I not get the hindrance as low in the first place, but I also don't even get to take full advantage of my only non-tertiary defensive skill because the armor can't keep up. I'm effectively being penalized for not neglecting armor training, so I feel as though the cushion needs to be bigger.
As for the numbers:
Light Armor: 585 38% clear (0/34)
Brigandine: 545 59% clear (0/34)
Plate Armor: 563 97% clear (0/34)
Evasion: 707 88.63% clear (0/34)
Armor:
some well-made brown-scaled gloves (Light Armor, insignificant)
a Dwarven mining cowl (Light Armor, insignificant)
some royal blue greaves (Brigandine, insignificant)
a lumium light plate fauld (Plate Armor, light)
a gargoyle-hide shield (insignificant)
some lumium scale vambraces (Brigandine, light)
a light lumium backplate (Plate Armor, light)
a lumium light breastplate (Plate Armor, light)
Overall Hindrance: fairly hindered in the live game, moderately hindered in Test.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
LAMBL
LAMBL
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/07/2011 05:50 PM CDT
And actually, now that I think about it, my hindrance is worse now that my armor ranks have been converted. I was at somewhat hindered wearing the same equipment when my Plate Armor was sitting at the value of my Light Plate (now Brigandine) and Brigandine was less than 10, and I chalked the increase over Prime up to the lack of Brigandine ranks. Maybe there's a bug somewhere.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
LAMBL
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/07/2011 06:05 PM CDT
And for an off-the-wall theory: before the latest conversion, my Heavy Plate ranks had gone to the mysterious Defense skill. After the conversion, I have 475 in this "Defense" skill (no idea where that one came from), which is quite a bit less than the 563. Since Plate Armor doesn't gain experience in combat (neither does Defense, but that seems like a weird sort of not-quite-skill), I wonder if perhaps the hindrance is looking at Defense for the Plate Armor pieces instead of the Plate Armor skill. That might explain why my hindrance went up after the conversion.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
SAUVA
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/08/2011 05:56 AM CDT
>The armor hindrance thing seems a little too harsh to me at the moment.
Wasn't the mixing penalty supposed to like double (or triple)? I swear I recall something along the lines of "we don't want folks wearing mixed armor anymore" but now I'm stumped as to where to find that.
That said, 150+ ranks is a pretty big difference now matter how you slice it. What happens if you don't wear 4 armors and just go leather/shield? Having tried it with Hanryu I'm only marginally worse in my all leather set-up (based on swim RT, not an actual app difference) with ~80 rank difference in leather/eva.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
http://tinyurl.com/HanryuTanning
Wasn't the mixing penalty supposed to like double (or triple)? I swear I recall something along the lines of "we don't want folks wearing mixed armor anymore" but now I'm stumped as to where to find that.
That said, 150+ ranks is a pretty big difference now matter how you slice it. What happens if you don't wear 4 armors and just go leather/shield? Having tried it with Hanryu I'm only marginally worse in my all leather set-up (based on swim RT, not an actual app difference) with ~80 rank difference in leather/eva.
~Hunter Hanryu
http://drplat.com/CombatEquipmentCompendium.xls
http://tinyurl.com/HanryuTanning
DR-DARTENIAN
Bug Fixes and Updates 09/08/11
09/08/2011 09:04 AM CDT
Heyo!
First things first....
Bug Fixes:
* The frequent knockbacks should be fixed. That turned out to be a very old script that was updated years ago but never released. Bah!
* ATTACK should be working again, but not in the previous manner. See below..
Updates:
* In-game HELP is now available. To use it, just type <verb> HELP for basic information -- for example, SLICE HELP.
It includes two additional options:
<verb> HELP FULL gives a detailed breakdown of verb information
<verb> HELP LIST will list most of the attack verbs as well as a few other combat-related verbs
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
First things first....
Bug Fixes:
* The frequent knockbacks should be fixed. That turned out to be a very old script that was updated years ago but never released. Bah!
* ATTACK should be working again, but not in the previous manner. See below..
Updates:
* In-game HELP is now available. To use it, just type <verb> HELP for basic information -- for example, SLICE HELP.
It includes two additional options:
<verb> HELP FULL gives a detailed breakdown of verb information
<verb> HELP LIST will list most of the attack verbs as well as a few other combat-related verbs
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/08/2011 09:13 AM CDT
Heyo!
I'll look into the hindrance issues. It is very possible that the new skills may have messed something up with hindrance, since I did those changes (and even released them to Plat where I haven't heard any major complaints of unusual behavior) a long time ago. It is also possible that the combination of multi-armor penalty and the fact your armor skills are trailing your evasion skill by almost 20% is kicking in a bit more hindrance than you were used to in Prime, although it shouldn't be a huge amount. In fact, given the way the message tiers work, it could be as little as +1 point more hindrance (if it's right on the boundry).
I know this aspect of the updates is going to frustrate some people, but in no other part of combat has it ever really been acceptable for a skill you are actively using to win in combat to be 100+ ranks behind all the others and still be fully effective, regardless of whether it was primary, secondary, or tertiary.The bottom line is that the "heavier" the armor you wish to wear, the more effort you are going to have to put into keeping it in line with the rest of your combat skills.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
I'll look into the hindrance issues. It is very possible that the new skills may have messed something up with hindrance, since I did those changes (and even released them to Plat where I haven't heard any major complaints of unusual behavior) a long time ago. It is also possible that the combination of multi-armor penalty and the fact your armor skills are trailing your evasion skill by almost 20% is kicking in a bit more hindrance than you were used to in Prime, although it shouldn't be a huge amount. In fact, given the way the message tiers work, it could be as little as +1 point more hindrance (if it's right on the boundry).
I know this aspect of the updates is going to frustrate some people, but in no other part of combat has it ever really been acceptable for a skill you are actively using to win in combat to be 100+ ranks behind all the others and still be fully effective, regardless of whether it was primary, secondary, or tertiary.The bottom line is that the "heavier" the armor you wish to wear, the more effort you are going to have to put into keeping it in line with the rest of your combat skills.
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
LAMBL
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/08/2011 11:54 AM CDT
<<It is also possible that the combination of multi-armor penalty and the fact your armor skills are trailing your evasion skill by almost 20% is kicking in a bit more hindrance than you were used to in Prime, although it shouldn't be a huge amount. In fact, given the way the message tiers work, it could be as little as +1 point more hindrance (if it's right on the boundry).>>
On multi-armor penalties, do Plate and Brigandine result in a penalty now whereas Light/Heavy Plate didn't before? Not that it makes a huge difference...I was still moderately hindered when I dropped the leather for some brigandine pieces with particularly low hindrance. Also, I'm quite sure that the difference is a lot more than 1 point of hindrance, since there's a full range (somewhat hindered) between where I was before (fairly hindered, teetering on the boundary with light) and where I ended up (moderately hindered). The fact that the difference is so huge is what's making me scratch my head here.
<<The bottom line is that the "heavier" the armor you wish to wear, the more effort you are going to have to put into keeping it in line with the rest of your combat skills.>>
How do you even go about doing that, though? I guess in the new system you'll be able to go with a parry/shield stance to gain armor experience without also gaining evasion, but in general the very act of training armor skills awards evasion experience. It seems like an unreasonable amount of acrobatics to try and get the armor skills to actually gain ground when evasion is in a faster skillset. To be clear, my armor skills are in line with the rest of my combat skills. It isn't that armor is lagging behind, but rather Evasion is leaps and bounds ahead just because of skillset arrangement. Evasion is the outlier in the positive direction, not armor in the negative direction. My shield and parry skills are in the low 600s, and armor is in the mid to upper 500s. It just feels like armor hindrance is trying to tell me "sorry, you don't actually get to have a secondary defense...I'm just gonna penalize it to counteract the fact that it has pulled ahead", and that's annoying.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
On multi-armor penalties, do Plate and Brigandine result in a penalty now whereas Light/Heavy Plate didn't before? Not that it makes a huge difference...I was still moderately hindered when I dropped the leather for some brigandine pieces with particularly low hindrance. Also, I'm quite sure that the difference is a lot more than 1 point of hindrance, since there's a full range (somewhat hindered) between where I was before (fairly hindered, teetering on the boundary with light) and where I ended up (moderately hindered). The fact that the difference is so huge is what's making me scratch my head here.
<<The bottom line is that the "heavier" the armor you wish to wear, the more effort you are going to have to put into keeping it in line with the rest of your combat skills.>>
How do you even go about doing that, though? I guess in the new system you'll be able to go with a parry/shield stance to gain armor experience without also gaining evasion, but in general the very act of training armor skills awards evasion experience. It seems like an unreasonable amount of acrobatics to try and get the armor skills to actually gain ground when evasion is in a faster skillset. To be clear, my armor skills are in line with the rest of my combat skills. It isn't that armor is lagging behind, but rather Evasion is leaps and bounds ahead just because of skillset arrangement. Evasion is the outlier in the positive direction, not armor in the negative direction. My shield and parry skills are in the low 600s, and armor is in the mid to upper 500s. It just feels like armor hindrance is trying to tell me "sorry, you don't actually get to have a secondary defense...I'm just gonna penalize it to counteract the fact that it has pulled ahead", and that's annoying.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/08/2011 01:40 PM CDT
> How do you even go about doing that, though? I guess in the new system you'll be able to go with a parry/shield stance to gain armor experience without also gaining evasion, but in general the very act of training armor skills awards evasion experience.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the revised experience for combat is not really updated yet beyond just getting all the new skills set up so we can make sure they are learnable and the correct ones are getting accessed. My ultimate intent is to award experience based much more heavily on degree of challenge presented and not so much on degree of success (weapon damage, for example) as it is now. When I am finished, any skill that is being used will be awarded experience based on the degree of challenge presented (capped, of course). So you will learn armor just as well whether you avoid the completely or fail to avoid it at all, and regardless of whether you parry, block, or evade. In other words, one skill will not interfere with the ability to learn another in the way it happens in the live game now. As long as your armor skill isn't over the learning cap, you will learn if something tries to hit you. The same applies to all defenses you are using, in proportion to how much of them you are using (60/60/60 means 60% xp for each defense, for example). This will also help in weapon training since the degree of challenge is what will determine experience, not damage. So in general it will be just as easy to learn with a dagger as with a bastard sword (note: there will be some modification based on roundtimes, so the weapon xp will be based on an xp-over-time model to try to keep the overall learning rates as even as possible, given equal degree of challenge).
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the revised experience for combat is not really updated yet beyond just getting all the new skills set up so we can make sure they are learnable and the correct ones are getting accessed. My ultimate intent is to award experience based much more heavily on degree of challenge presented and not so much on degree of success (weapon damage, for example) as it is now. When I am finished, any skill that is being used will be awarded experience based on the degree of challenge presented (capped, of course). So you will learn armor just as well whether you avoid the completely or fail to avoid it at all, and regardless of whether you parry, block, or evade. In other words, one skill will not interfere with the ability to learn another in the way it happens in the live game now. As long as your armor skill isn't over the learning cap, you will learn if something tries to hit you. The same applies to all defenses you are using, in proportion to how much of them you are using (60/60/60 means 60% xp for each defense, for example). This will also help in weapon training since the degree of challenge is what will determine experience, not damage. So in general it will be just as easy to learn with a dagger as with a bastard sword (note: there will be some modification based on roundtimes, so the weapon xp will be based on an xp-over-time model to try to keep the overall learning rates as even as possible, given equal degree of challenge).
- GM Dartenian
Though my soul may set in darkness it will rise in perfect light. I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night! - Sarah Williams
ALGOTHI
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/08/2011 02:37 PM CDT
>This will also help in weapon training since the degree of challenge is what will determine experience, not damage. So in general it will be just as easy to learn with a dagger as with a bastard sword (note: there will be some modification based on roundtimes, so the weapon xp will be based on an xp-over-time model to try to keep the overall learning rates as even as possible, given equal degree of challenge).
Being almost exclusively a light weapon user, this makes me happy. I like how all this sounds and looking forward to seeing how well it works out in practice.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Being almost exclusively a light weapon user, this makes me happy. I like how all this sounds and looking forward to seeing how well it works out in practice.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DARKNESS51
Re: Armor Hindrance
09/08/2011 04:17 PM CDT
> How do you even go about doing that, though? I guess in the new system you'll be able to go with a parry/shield stance to gain armor experience without also gaining evasion, but in general the very act of training armor skills awards evasion experience.
To me this is more a result of the fact you had no need to ever wait for evasion to catch up, and the higher you go the larger the range that something teaches is. Equally training as warrior mage I can't expect to keep my evasion up to my TM.. but I have to or I die. Eventually I'll break into the range of something I can hunt that my defenses can handle that will give me room to have TM go out as far ahead as it wants, but as long as what teaches my TM can kill me, I have to wait on evasion. In THAT way I don't see the issue with needing to keep a tert or secondary skill in line with a primary skill, it's not the first time it's happened.
-Dek
"That's what she said."
No..
"...That's what Leilond said."
To me this is more a result of the fact you had no need to ever wait for evasion to catch up, and the higher you go the larger the range that something teaches is. Equally training as warrior mage I can't expect to keep my evasion up to my TM.. but I have to or I die. Eventually I'll break into the range of something I can hunt that my defenses can handle that will give me room to have TM go out as far ahead as it wants, but as long as what teaches my TM can kill me, I have to wait on evasion. In THAT way I don't see the issue with needing to keep a tert or secondary skill in line with a primary skill, it's not the first time it's happened.
-Dek
"That's what she said."
No..
"...That's what Leilond said."
