I was participating in an invasion a few days ago and got charged for casting Thunderclap using the CREATURES and default casting options, at the room outside the NE gate of Crossing. The fine was small, not a huge deal, but it's no fun getting pinched for trying to help defend town. =(
Would it be possible to treat CAST, CAST CREATURES, and CAST AREA differently for justice purposes so that CAST AREA generates a charge but the others don't? IMO that would make for a whole bunch of happy defenders.
Mazrian
JULIAN
KUYKEND9
Re: Justice and AOE
05/26/2015 02:01 PM CDT
This is a really, really good idea. I like this idea a bunch.
I
"Could be worse, I could agree with Pureblade." ~ Samsaren
I
"Could be worse, I could agree with Pureblade." ~ Samsaren
DR-RAESH
Re: Justice and AOE
05/26/2015 03:44 PM CDT
I'm not opposed to this. It'll take me understanding a lot more about the area cast logic we use than I currently do, however.
(Unfortunately, most of that code was maintained by Socharis).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
(Unfortunately, most of that code was maintained by Socharis).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/26/2015 06:35 PM CDT
Was this one of the NPC auto-invasion things? I thought you can't get pinched for using AOEs when justice is in invasion-mode already.
Not that my view matters more than yours, but I'm kinda on the fence about non-invasion tag justice not giving an endangerment charge, because your average citizen-joe wouldn't realize you're explicitly targeting your mass attack thingy at only critters.
Would be nice if NPC auto-invasions could somehow properly flag justice as invasion-justice, though. Might solve the issue.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Not that my view matters more than yours, but I'm kinda on the fence about non-invasion tag justice not giving an endangerment charge, because your average citizen-joe wouldn't realize you're explicitly targeting your mass attack thingy at only critters.
Would be nice if NPC auto-invasions could somehow properly flag justice as invasion-justice, though. Might solve the issue.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
JULIAN
Re: Justice and AOE
05/26/2015 06:41 PM CDT
Yeah, this was one of the NPC-generated invasions.
>>because your average citizen-joe wouldn't realize you're explicitly targeting your mass attack thingy at only critters.<<
Probably. With equal justification the authorities could go "calm down sir we've got invaders at the gate". I'm ok with whatever justification makes my text not get arrested.
Mazrian
>>because your average citizen-joe wouldn't realize you're explicitly targeting your mass attack thingy at only critters.<<
Probably. With equal justification the authorities could go "calm down sir we've got invaders at the gate". I'm ok with whatever justification makes my text not get arrested.
Mazrian
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/26/2015 06:49 PM CDT
>>With equal justification the authorities could go "calm down sir we've got invaders at the gate".
Yeah, this is always how I viewed that special invasion version of justice that AFAIK allows people to blast AOE's everywhere, along with other things that may cause charges.
Potential coding issues aside (because AFAIK a GM has to manually push the special-justice button when they are manually summoning their invasions right now for the non-NPC auto-invasions), I'm just figuring it might be better to allow those invasion justice mechanicals to flip special justice on/off to make sure everything that gets caught is caught, as opposed to making a universal in-town exemption for cast critter AoEs, which AFAIK exists more for player-based teamwork sanity reasons as opposed to any notable universal IC logic.
After all, fire rain might somehow turn into a smart-bomb setup, but thunderclap is suddenly a series of mini-booms only around critter heads? That's not how the latter spell necessarily works.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Yeah, this is always how I viewed that special invasion version of justice that AFAIK allows people to blast AOE's everywhere, along with other things that may cause charges.
Potential coding issues aside (because AFAIK a GM has to manually push the special-justice button when they are manually summoning their invasions right now for the non-NPC auto-invasions), I'm just figuring it might be better to allow those invasion justice mechanicals to flip special justice on/off to make sure everything that gets caught is caught, as opposed to making a universal in-town exemption for cast critter AoEs, which AFAIK exists more for player-based teamwork sanity reasons as opposed to any notable universal IC logic.
After all, fire rain might somehow turn into a smart-bomb setup, but thunderclap is suddenly a series of mini-booms only around critter heads? That's not how the latter spell necessarily works.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
KUYKEND9
Re: Justice and AOE
05/26/2015 08:19 PM CDT
>> Not that my view matters more than yours, but I'm kinda on the fence about non-invasion tag justice not giving an endangerment charge, because your average citizen-joe wouldn't realize you're explicitly targeting your mass attack thingy at only critters.
I totally see the point, but I think that this is one of those times where we err on the side of playability rather than realism, or to use your own words, "player-based teamwork sanity reasons as opposed to any notable universal IC logic." If the invasion justice flag could get properly automated that might work as well, but even that won't account for risen and constructs. I think Maz's suggestion is a solid solution that addresses the root issue - that casting spells specifically designed to help the townsfolk by only hitting creatures - is best.
I
"Could be worse, I could agree with Pureblade." ~ Samsaren
I totally see the point, but I think that this is one of those times where we err on the side of playability rather than realism, or to use your own words, "player-based teamwork sanity reasons as opposed to any notable universal IC logic." If the invasion justice flag could get properly automated that might work as well, but even that won't account for risen and constructs. I think Maz's suggestion is a solid solution that addresses the root issue - that casting spells specifically designed to help the townsfolk by only hitting creatures - is best.
I
"Could be worse, I could agree with Pureblade." ~ Samsaren
ROBERTDH
Re: Justice and AOE
05/27/2015 12:59 PM CDT
>Would be nice if NPC auto-invasions could somehow properly flag justice as invasion-justice, though. Might solve the issue.
We've been told that auto-invasions intentionally do not trigger invasion justice, so players do not have the power to turn justice off.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
We've been told that auto-invasions intentionally do not trigger invasion justice, so players do not have the power to turn justice off.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/28/2015 12:20 AM CDT
>>We've been told that auto-invasions intentionally do not trigger invasion justice, so players do not have the power to turn justice off.
Yeah... but a few things to take into account:
1) AFAIK, it doesn't turn all justice off. Just things like casting AOEs on mobs not causing Disturbing the Peace Charges. Maybe Forbidden Practices. It's not like you could start an invasion and use it so you can have a PVP event in the middle of town, right?
2) The NPCs are on timers, so it's not like that could be used to reliably/infinitely turn justice off for those cases.
If you make it so AOEs cast to just mobs don't cause charges flat-out, IMO you're de-fanging a notable portion of that invasion-justice as it is.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Yeah... but a few things to take into account:
1) AFAIK, it doesn't turn all justice off. Just things like casting AOEs on mobs not causing Disturbing the Peace Charges. Maybe Forbidden Practices. It's not like you could start an invasion and use it so you can have a PVP event in the middle of town, right?
2) The NPCs are on timers, so it's not like that could be used to reliably/infinitely turn justice off for those cases.
If you make it so AOEs cast to just mobs don't cause charges flat-out, IMO you're de-fanging a notable portion of that invasion-justice as it is.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
THAYET
Re: Justice and AOE
05/28/2015 01:20 AM CDT
It definitely prevents forbidden practices charges. It also prevents you from accusing people. (Invasion mechanics are enabled in Test.)
I think murder and theft are the only charges it doesn't stop.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
I think murder and theft are the only charges it doesn't stop.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
KUYKEND9
Re: Justice and AOE
05/28/2015 07:21 AM CDT
>> If you make it so AOEs cast to just mobs don't cause charges flat-out, IMO you're de-fanging a notable portion of that invasion-justice as it is.
Yes, but you're "de-fanging" one player-convenience system in exchange for a different, better player-convenience system. It's like saying that belt-worn skinning knives "de-fanged" held skinning knives; they certainly did, and that was a good thing.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
Yes, but you're "de-fanging" one player-convenience system in exchange for a different, better player-convenience system. It's like saying that belt-worn skinning knives "de-fanged" held skinning knives; they certainly did, and that was a good thing.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/28/2015 06:58 PM CDT
>>Yes, but you're "de-fanging" one player-convenience system in exchange for a different, better player-convenience system. It's like saying that belt-worn skinning knives "de-fanged" held skinning knives; they certainly did, and that was a good thing.
IMO the major advantage of invasion justice is you can cast AOEs in town. IMO, making it so you can cast AOEs in town as long as it's not for PvP defeats a major purpose of invasion justice.
If the majority of time people want to cast AOEs on critters in justice areas is to use them during NPC invasions, IMO it would make a lot more sense to just turn invasion justice on during those times.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
IMO the major advantage of invasion justice is you can cast AOEs in town. IMO, making it so you can cast AOEs in town as long as it's not for PvP defeats a major purpose of invasion justice.
If the majority of time people want to cast AOEs on critters in justice areas is to use them during NPC invasions, IMO it would make a lot more sense to just turn invasion justice on during those times.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
KUYKEND9
Re: Justice and AOE
05/28/2015 11:17 PM CDT
>> IMO the major advantage of invasion justice is you can cast AOEs in town. IMO, making it so you can cast AOEs in town as long as it's not for PvP defeats a major purpose of invasion justice.
>> If the majority of time people want to cast AOEs on critters in justice areas is to use them during NPC invasions, IMO it would make a lot more sense to just turn invasion justice on during those times.
Yes, or we could just get rid of "invasion justice" and replace it with a system that never punishes players for doing things that are intended to defend the town from attack. That might not be possible all in one fell swoop, but the suggestion discussed here is a good start. Invasion justice has many flaws, the biggest of which being human error (nobody remembers to turn it on). The most evident solution (and best, in my opinion) is to adjust the system to always exclude spells that have the explicit intent of attacking creatures and not damaging players and townsfolk. Less work for GMs, less room for human error, better playing experience for players.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
>> If the majority of time people want to cast AOEs on critters in justice areas is to use them during NPC invasions, IMO it would make a lot more sense to just turn invasion justice on during those times.
Yes, or we could just get rid of "invasion justice" and replace it with a system that never punishes players for doing things that are intended to defend the town from attack. That might not be possible all in one fell swoop, but the suggestion discussed here is a good start. Invasion justice has many flaws, the biggest of which being human error (nobody remembers to turn it on). The most evident solution (and best, in my opinion) is to adjust the system to always exclude spells that have the explicit intent of attacking creatures and not damaging players and townsfolk. Less work for GMs, less room for human error, better playing experience for players.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/29/2015 12:38 AM CDT
>>Yes, or we could just get rid of "invasion justice" and replace it with a system that never punishes players for doing things that are intended to defend the town from attack.
Intent isn't magical. You can intend to save the world all you want, but if you're burning down entire cities in the process you're not going to get thanked for it.
Players don't get "punished" for defending cities. They get "punished" in rare situations where their kind of saving isn't appreciated.
>>exclude spells that have the explicit intent of attacking creatures and not damaging players and townsfolk
Except, AFAIK, cast critter isn't an ICly explicit intent for every spell that can use it.
As I said, ICly, how do you target a thunderclap to only critters? What about frostbite? The fact that there are some spell features that make them OOCly supportive of a work-as-a-team environment between players (which I fully endorse and support) doesn't mean that they should also then be considered that ICly, as well.
I don't think it's reasonable to have the string of logic go this route.
I mean, if we're going this route, why not have Forbidden Practices charges not count when they're done toward critters, either? After all, it's just a Moon Mage casting TV at a critter so no big deal. OOCly the only real danger is between the player backfiring and the critter hurt, so townsfolk should never care anyway.
This is why I'd much rather see invasion justice work "smarter" than start exempting things which are ICly bad things from the normal justice system. It maintains the weight of what players are doing.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Intent isn't magical. You can intend to save the world all you want, but if you're burning down entire cities in the process you're not going to get thanked for it.
Players don't get "punished" for defending cities. They get "punished" in rare situations where their kind of saving isn't appreciated.
>>exclude spells that have the explicit intent of attacking creatures and not damaging players and townsfolk
Except, AFAIK, cast critter isn't an ICly explicit intent for every spell that can use it.
As I said, ICly, how do you target a thunderclap to only critters? What about frostbite? The fact that there are some spell features that make them OOCly supportive of a work-as-a-team environment between players (which I fully endorse and support) doesn't mean that they should also then be considered that ICly, as well.
I don't think it's reasonable to have the string of logic go this route.
| Q: I want to hunt as a team with other players, can I have my spells only target non-players in the area? |
| A: This makes perfect sense for teamwork interests, here are some cast options that prevent you from hitting players so players working together don't unintentionally hurt each other. |
| Q: Now that you made this consideration, can we suddenly believe this was an IC-logic decision as opposed to an OOC-gameplay enjoyment decision, and make it so my spells really aren't targeting anyone in the area except those explicit mobs, making it so that I can use them in justice zones? |
I mean, if we're going this route, why not have Forbidden Practices charges not count when they're done toward critters, either? After all, it's just a Moon Mage casting TV at a critter so no big deal. OOCly the only real danger is between the player backfiring and the critter hurt, so townsfolk should never care anyway.
This is why I'd much rather see invasion justice work "smarter" than start exempting things which are ICly bad things from the normal justice system. It maintains the weight of what players are doing.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
JULIAN
Re: Justice and AOE
05/29/2015 03:02 AM CDT
Pureblade,
Nobody cares but you. =) Hope this helps.
Mazrian
Nobody cares but you. =) Hope this helps.
Mazrian
THAYET
Re: Justice and AOE
05/29/2015 03:30 AM CDT
I'd actually rather not see players gain the ability to flip on invasion justice mechanics myself given how they presently work. That just begs to be abused.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Justice and AOE ::NUDGE::
05/29/2015 03:41 AM CDT
We can have a discussion without the hostility, I know we can.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
DR-RAESH
Re: Justice and AOE ::NUDGE::
05/29/2015 04:49 AM CDT
>>We can have a discussion without the hostility, I know we can.
No we can't. Also, you're mean.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
No we can't. Also, you're mean.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/29/2015 07:22 AM CDT
>>Nobody cares but you
Won't be the first time nor the last time! If you think this is a way to drive me out of the topic, I wonder if you've ever read anything I've posted in the past forever.
>>I'd actually rather not see players gain the ability to flip on invasion justice mechanics myself given how they presently work. That just begs to be abused.
Eh, I personally have trouble seeing what could happen that would be abusive. AFAIK, invasion justice doesn't permit any actions that would disrupt gameplay. PvP/murder is still bad, theft is still bad, PCs can still be accused of Necromancy, etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Won't be the first time nor the last time! If you think this is a way to drive me out of the topic, I wonder if you've ever read anything I've posted in the past forever.
>>I'd actually rather not see players gain the ability to flip on invasion justice mechanics myself given how they presently work. That just begs to be abused.
Eh, I personally have trouble seeing what could happen that would be abusive. AFAIK, invasion justice doesn't permit any actions that would disrupt gameplay. PvP/murder is still bad, theft is still bad, PCs can still be accused of Necromancy, etc.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
KUYKEND9
Re: Justice and AOE
05/29/2015 01:43 PM CDT
>> Intent isn't magical. You can intend to save the world all you want, but if you're burning down entire cities in the process you're not going to get thanked for it.
When it comes to amorphous, undiscernable role-playing actions, that's true. When it comes to commands though, we absolutely can discern intent, and translate it into iron-clad action; for example, if I cast a spell that can only affect monsters, the game knows that my intent is not to harm innocents, and more than that I simply can't harm innocents. I can certainly see the argument for why these spells might get you wanted, just as I understood why using the SPIT command in town used to get you fined if a guard saw you do it. But, similarly to SPIT fines, it's a somewhat arbitrary impediment to player enjoyment.
I think it's also worth discussing that the reason Invasion Justice exists is because players were getting fined and/or arrested for participating in invasions. Now, we have CAST CREATURES, which basically eliminates the need for Invasion Justice, but justice hasn't been adjusted. Mazrian made the excellent suggestion to update the system, and I think that's what should be done.
If we need a compromise - I'm far from convinced that we do, but I'm really trying to be amenable here - then I'd say add in a skill check. For example, using Fireball, if I CAST CREATURES in a Justice area, there's a skill check called to see if you can successfully restrain the spell to keep the locals from freaking out. But honestly, if you're literally the only person we're trying to appease here - as has been suggested - then I think this addition probably isn't worth implementing anyhow.
>> Players don't get "punished" for defending cities. They get "punished" in rare situations where their kind of saving isn't appreciated.
That's misleadingly worded. What's actually happening is that they're being "punished" in not-that-rare situations where someone forgets to turn Invasion Justice on; I'm not trying to toss blame here, either. It's a simple and honest oversight that could happen to anyone, and does happen from time to time. All I'm saying is that Mazrian's suggestion would take that onus off the GM running the invasion by removing a significant portion of the need to set it in the first place.
>> Except, AFAIK, cast critter isn't an ICly explicit intent for every spell that can use it. As I said, ICly, how do you target a thunderclap to only critters? What about frostbite? The fact that there are some spell features that make them OOCly supportive of a work-as-a-team environment between players (which I fully endorse and support) doesn't mean that they should also then be considered that ICly, as well.
I don't know how to say this without seeming snarky: it's magic. Literally, it is magic. How do you target it to just hit creatures? Magic. I will agree that there ought to be some messaging that indicates as much, and I don't know whether there is or not as I don't currently have any AoE spells. As far as OOC versus IC reasoning, I would argue that it's very certainly an in-character thing that adventurers have learned how to not kill their friends (and innocent bystanders) with spells, and the evidence for that is that adventurers have learned how to not kill their friends and innocent bystanders with spells. It's far more meta-game-y and OOC to say that your friends just happen to not get hit by your Frostbite - over and over and over again - than it is to say that you're intentionally not hitting them.
>> I mean, if we're going this route, why not have Forbidden Practices charges not count when they're done toward critters, either?
Because Forbidden Practices are forbidden. Period. Offensive area-of-effect spells on the other hand are perfectly fine when they're employed with the intent of harming creatures and not townsfolk, which is exactly what CAST CREATURES does.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
When it comes to amorphous, undiscernable role-playing actions, that's true. When it comes to commands though, we absolutely can discern intent, and translate it into iron-clad action; for example, if I cast a spell that can only affect monsters, the game knows that my intent is not to harm innocents, and more than that I simply can't harm innocents. I can certainly see the argument for why these spells might get you wanted, just as I understood why using the SPIT command in town used to get you fined if a guard saw you do it. But, similarly to SPIT fines, it's a somewhat arbitrary impediment to player enjoyment.
I think it's also worth discussing that the reason Invasion Justice exists is because players were getting fined and/or arrested for participating in invasions. Now, we have CAST CREATURES, which basically eliminates the need for Invasion Justice, but justice hasn't been adjusted. Mazrian made the excellent suggestion to update the system, and I think that's what should be done.
If we need a compromise - I'm far from convinced that we do, but I'm really trying to be amenable here - then I'd say add in a skill check. For example, using Fireball, if I CAST CREATURES in a Justice area, there's a skill check called to see if you can successfully restrain the spell to keep the locals from freaking out. But honestly, if you're literally the only person we're trying to appease here - as has been suggested - then I think this addition probably isn't worth implementing anyhow.
>> Players don't get "punished" for defending cities. They get "punished" in rare situations where their kind of saving isn't appreciated.
That's misleadingly worded. What's actually happening is that they're being "punished" in not-that-rare situations where someone forgets to turn Invasion Justice on; I'm not trying to toss blame here, either. It's a simple and honest oversight that could happen to anyone, and does happen from time to time. All I'm saying is that Mazrian's suggestion would take that onus off the GM running the invasion by removing a significant portion of the need to set it in the first place.
>> Except, AFAIK, cast critter isn't an ICly explicit intent for every spell that can use it. As I said, ICly, how do you target a thunderclap to only critters? What about frostbite? The fact that there are some spell features that make them OOCly supportive of a work-as-a-team environment between players (which I fully endorse and support) doesn't mean that they should also then be considered that ICly, as well.
I don't know how to say this without seeming snarky: it's magic. Literally, it is magic. How do you target it to just hit creatures? Magic. I will agree that there ought to be some messaging that indicates as much, and I don't know whether there is or not as I don't currently have any AoE spells. As far as OOC versus IC reasoning, I would argue that it's very certainly an in-character thing that adventurers have learned how to not kill their friends (and innocent bystanders) with spells, and the evidence for that is that adventurers have learned how to not kill their friends and innocent bystanders with spells. It's far more meta-game-y and OOC to say that your friends just happen to not get hit by your Frostbite - over and over and over again - than it is to say that you're intentionally not hitting them.
>> I mean, if we're going this route, why not have Forbidden Practices charges not count when they're done toward critters, either?
Because Forbidden Practices are forbidden. Period. Offensive area-of-effect spells on the other hand are perfectly fine when they're employed with the intent of harming creatures and not townsfolk, which is exactly what CAST CREATURES does.
I
"Q: This is stupid. / Work on something we actually need changed! / Why aren't you working on something I want you to work on?
"A: Kindly shut up." ~ GM Naohhi
THAYET
Re: Justice and AOE
05/29/2015 02:33 PM CDT
>> Eh, I personally have trouble seeing what could happen that would be abusive. AFAIK, invasion justice doesn't permit any actions that would disrupt gameplay. PvP/murder is still bad, theft is still bad, PCs can still be accused of Necromancy, etc.
PCs can't be accused of necromancy during an invasion. Forbidden practices charges also don't appear to get triggered, not even for glass orbs.
Murder and theft are still bad, but nothing theoretically would stop me from flipping on invasion justice and so I can hang out at Magen with my zombie and a construct out.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
PCs can't be accused of necromancy during an invasion. Forbidden practices charges also don't appear to get triggered, not even for glass orbs.
Murder and theft are still bad, but nothing theoretically would stop me from flipping on invasion justice and so I can hang out at Magen with my zombie and a construct out.
Thayet
Follow @thayelf on Twitter for absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever!
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/29/2015 07:03 PM CDT
>>the game knows that my intent is not to harm innocents, and more than that I simply can't harm innocents
My view is that the game environment and the roleplay environment don't always meet eye to eye. While I support the idea of the game environment taking some extra steps to ensure that players can actually interact together without unintentionally killing each other, I don't think the game environment should totally disregard the roleplay environment which wraps around the entire game.
>>I think it's also worth discussing that the reason Invasion Justice exists is because players were getting fined and/or arrested for participating in invasions.
Agreed. And I think invasion justice is a wonderful solution.
>>Now, we have CAST CREATURES, which basically eliminates the need for Invasion Justice, but justice hasn't been adjusted.
Except that accomplished something else entirely. CAST CREATURES existed so players couldn't hit other players, not so players couldn't hit the imaginary background din of citizens to circumvent a RP response to using AOEs in town during non-invasions.
>>I don't know how to say this without seeming snarky: it's magic.
DR magic still follows rules and has set goals/intents.
>>It's far more meta-game-y and OOC to say that your friends just happen to not get hit by your Frostbite - over and over and over again - than it is to say that you're intentionally not hitting them.
Except it was an OOC concession to make teamwork more viable. Which I'm cool with. I don't lose any sleep with an OOC concession like that.
Alternatively, I think it's silly to make using AoEs in town okay if they're not hitting players.
>>Murder and theft are still bad, but nothing theoretically would stop me from flipping on invasion justice and so I can hang out at Magen with my zombie and a construct out.
I'd rather see players who theoretically abuse a system to do this get punished vs remove the concept of invasion justice from the game as a whole.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
My view is that the game environment and the roleplay environment don't always meet eye to eye. While I support the idea of the game environment taking some extra steps to ensure that players can actually interact together without unintentionally killing each other, I don't think the game environment should totally disregard the roleplay environment which wraps around the entire game.
>>I think it's also worth discussing that the reason Invasion Justice exists is because players were getting fined and/or arrested for participating in invasions.
Agreed. And I think invasion justice is a wonderful solution.
>>Now, we have CAST CREATURES, which basically eliminates the need for Invasion Justice, but justice hasn't been adjusted.
Except that accomplished something else entirely. CAST CREATURES existed so players couldn't hit other players, not so players couldn't hit the imaginary background din of citizens to circumvent a RP response to using AOEs in town during non-invasions.
>>I don't know how to say this without seeming snarky: it's magic.
DR magic still follows rules and has set goals/intents.
>>It's far more meta-game-y and OOC to say that your friends just happen to not get hit by your Frostbite - over and over and over again - than it is to say that you're intentionally not hitting them.
Except it was an OOC concession to make teamwork more viable. Which I'm cool with. I don't lose any sleep with an OOC concession like that.
Alternatively, I think it's silly to make using AoEs in town okay if they're not hitting players.
>>Murder and theft are still bad, but nothing theoretically would stop me from flipping on invasion justice and so I can hang out at Magen with my zombie and a construct out.
I'd rather see players who theoretically abuse a system to do this get punished vs remove the concept of invasion justice from the game as a whole.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
JULIAN
Re: Justice and AOE
05/30/2015 09:31 AM CDT
>>Except that accomplished something else entirely. CAST CREATURES existed so players couldn't hit other players, not so players couldn't hit the imaginary background din of citizens to circumvent a RP response to using AOEs in town during non-invasions.<<
>>DR magic still follows rules and has set goals/intents.<<
The mage weaving the targeting matrix knows what they want to hit, and the spell only hits those things.
Here are the three messages for targeting an AOE:
You begin to weave mana lines into a targeting pattern centered around yourself that is designed to strike the avenues of attack around you.
You begin to weave mana lines into a targeting pattern centered around yourself, seeking out anything obviously hostile around you.
You begin to weave mana lines into an all-inclusive targeting pattern centered around yourself.
Are the bystanders attacking the mage? Are the bystanders obviously hostile? If they are they're not bystanders. The only way bystanders get hit is if the mage decides specifically to blanket the area and weaves the matrix to do that. That's what's consistent with the game lore.
Mazrian
>>DR magic still follows rules and has set goals/intents.<<
The mage weaving the targeting matrix knows what they want to hit, and the spell only hits those things.
Here are the three messages for targeting an AOE:
You begin to weave mana lines into a targeting pattern centered around yourself that is designed to strike the avenues of attack around you.
You begin to weave mana lines into a targeting pattern centered around yourself, seeking out anything obviously hostile around you.
You begin to weave mana lines into an all-inclusive targeting pattern centered around yourself.
Are the bystanders attacking the mage? Are the bystanders obviously hostile? If they are they're not bystanders. The only way bystanders get hit is if the mage decides specifically to blanket the area and weaves the matrix to do that. That's what's consistent with the game lore.
Mazrian
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Justice and AOE
05/30/2015 10:01 AM CDT
>>Here are the three messages for targeting an AOE:
>>You begin to weave mana lines into a targeting pattern centered around yourself, seeking out anything obviously hostile around you.
You target Frostbite and TC?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>You begin to weave mana lines into a targeting pattern centered around yourself, seeking out anything obviously hostile around you.
You target Frostbite and TC?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
