>What if there is someone in game (their character, mind you) who has studied every language?

1) it is currently impossible for any character to know more than their own private language and common. (Something I think should be fixed, but still) and 2) in a fully developed world I seriously doubt it would be possible to study every language ... particularly since the world isn't even fully explored.

>And if the character/player speaking the foreign language wasn't using player knowledge (AKA OOC) then they would not be speaking the foreign language. Again, out of character.

Ok, now I see where you're coming from. It's completely alien to my way of thinking, but still. I guess because the concept of someone only knowing one language with clue about any others to the point of it causing a violent reaction is completely bizarre in the extreme.

And that is the point. How many people here who are supporting instantly thumping, killing or even attacking someone for a single word in French would do the same thing for mentioning the latest football scores, Madonna song or network glitch? That's what really disturbs me. The pure vitriol against someone who probably didn't even know what he'd done wrong. Sheesh. No one even said, "I'm sorry, I can't understand you, can you rephrase that?" That's the polite thing, particularly with a whisper, "Could you please speak English?"

Don't know, I guess I have a different concept of civility. To me it is incredibly rude to attack someone for any words, no matter how vile, without at least asking the person to stop, first. To attack someone with no warning, for something they may well not know, is just wrong. But then I get the feeling in many places in the realms, civility and manners have gone the way of the Illithi government. I think I'll stay away from the mainland, if this is what people consider reasonable behavior.

Dio

If two thieves decide to develop their own language apart from signing, in order to have conversations they and only they can understand, but which nobody else, not even GMs, can comprehend, is that justification for thumping?

Most players wouldn't know if it was an IC developed language, or something they're unfamiliar with, such as Swahili or Pueblo.

A character who roleplayed a linguist who could, if not understand all languages, at least could recognize them would be baffled by this.

Thumpable? Attackable?


All the world will be your enemy,
Prince with a thousand enemies.
And if they catch you, they will kill you.
But first they must catch you.

>but from an RP standpoint there should be no reason why a person couldn't RP studying other languages.

Oh, certainly. But a scholar of languges would be least likely, I would think to RP violently attacking someone for speaking a language they didn't understand. Most likely they'd be incredibly curious and try to figure it out.

>If there were only 9 languages in the world, I guarantee there would be many people who knew all 9 aside from those who could probably be fluent in all 9.

If there were only 9 language in the world my ability to suspend would go crashing to the floor even more violently than with the concept that everyone speaks common. <g> Maybe that's why I actually rather appreciate hearing something other than English on occasion, even if it's just a few words. Makes Elanthia feel more organic and less like a pre-scripted exercise.

>If you came up to my main character and spoke some freaky language to him and he felt like it was threatening

There's the big and. In the example that started this thread I didn't see anything threatening other than to the people not speaking English.

You see, I don't get reacting violently to a situation that isn't violent. I mean yes, if someone is actually harassing me, getting out a weapon, prepping a spell, or otherwise getting in my face in game, sure, I'll thump 'em or otherwise do something about it. But in passing? Why? It's not worth getting violent over words.

Even my most aggressive characters aren't going to attack someone for random bad manners. Sheesh. Being rude yourself doesn't make the other person any less rude.

>9/10 times that I see someone gweth something or say something out of character, I whisper to them that it is out of character and try to help them. 8/9 of those times they are a true new player and they apologize and are interested in learning to stay in character.

Exactly. Most people don't mean to be rude. Killing someone or thumping them doesn't teach them anything but to avoid people. It's the old problem that if you kill the puppy every time it piddles on the rug you'll never have an adult dog. Killing characters for OOC behavior with no explanation or warning isn't going to get them to do anything but stop playing DR.

Quite honestly, how would you feel if someone thought purple clothes were OOC because the dyes used for true purple only came from Tyre during the pre-petrochemical dye period there is no Tyre in DR, so they killed you for wearing a purple shirt ... without saying a word about it. Just "You're OOC! You're fair game!" Huh?

>It is at the time when someone keep continuously

Anything, no matter how IC or OOC driven into the ground annoys me. <g> Yeesh. There's consistancy and then there's pure annoyance value. What's shocking to me is how annoying so many people think non DR languages are. I can see, at the limit, thumping someone and then whispering to them about it. But the viciousness towards it is totally out of proportion to the offense. Sheesh.

>If I saw some Novice Bartholemew the Empath say, "Sprechen sie Deutch?" in the empath room after he just joined, I would probably whisper to them and continue from there.

But what a lot of people here are saying and the original example was that saying something like "Plus la change." in ordinary conversation is enough to deserve an official Warning from the GM's and being thumped then killed without hesitation or comment. Sheesh. A little proportion people and maybe a little thought. I know I've said things like, "Que?" or "Donde?" or "Bonjour" in game just because I do it occasionally in real life. If someone just killed me for it I'd actually think of reporting. It's a reaction entirely out of proportion to the offense.

That's my complaint. Killing or even thumping for a single word or line of anything that isn't grossly vulgar is just excessive. People make mistakes. Well, not everyone. I'm sure there are a lot of people on these boards who are proud to say they've never made a mistake in their lives. Goody for them. Stay away from me.

Dio, player of

I know that once upon a time a few years ago this was discussed and a GM or somone said something to the effect of english is the only accepted language to be used in DR. Really if you can read the text you can type in english.

Its just as rude as if in real life your talking to 2 or more people that know you dont understand the language and they both speak english. so your talking in english then all of a sudden start speaking another language? To me its rude behavior.

---

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.

---

>Like my example.

That's a beautiful example, btw. But would you feel threatened if someone wandered in and asked, "Que pasa?" (I've been known to do stuff like this in real life, again, out of habit, but because my Spanish is pure border and I rarely write it, I don't do it in DR ... much. <g>) Particularly if you blinked at them, then they followed up and asked, "How goes it?"

Bluntly, I don't think my example should be a lockout offense. It's not that big a deal to me, but I guess to a lot of people it's even more offensive than, oh, say, Ruffle's infamous slip on the gweth and deserves a far harsher punishment for destroying their role playing ability. That is where I see the wrongness to come in.

>I am pretty sure, however, that it has been said that english should be spoken at all times.

I'd like to hear this officially. Not because I don't believe you, but because I do like to know the rules ... particularly ones I habitually violate. <g> Would not do to say "Que?" in front of a GM and get locked out for it. That'd be silly.

Personally, I just don't see why it's so horrible, really, mostly because I am used to bits and pieces of other languages being used around me. But I guess since it is so vile to some people, I can see why it has to be absolutely barred. Must be part of that assume thing. <g> I just don't assume that someone speaking another language in my presence, not doing anything else to me, isn't a threat. Different backgrounds.

Dio, player of

>>This is what I think it should be as well, or even the occasional phrase/sentence.

I was just trying to get across not having a conversation in it.

>>I do think this should be very prominently stated, particularly if it is true that any non-English usage is a major violation of the ToS and an immediately warnable offense. Even the very occasional four letter word isn't an immediately warnable offense as long as it isn't repeated behavior. (I've done it, once, quite by accident and as far as I know it didn't end up in my record. It just slipped out.) To put the use of one foreign word in a stricter category, well, eeeewwww. That's just not right. Even to punish someone with a full up warning, on a first offense, for something that is not clearly documented, I think is not a good thing.

If you didn't have your screen go basically yellow, you didn't get one. You can't miss it. Never got one myself, but have a friend who has gotten a few over the years. Basically get a page of scroll from what I understand. It is very doubtful they would get a warning first offense either; more likely a nudge in the correct way to be talking if a GM saw it.

Brabs

---

Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.

"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"

---

[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"

---

Your mind hears Gelicast thinking, "shoot the gelv cyclops, not gelicast"

I am no stranger to hearing other languages being spoken around me. I live in a university town with a multitude of Eastern European and Aisan students, many of whom speak thier native languages with groups of friends. I do not find people speaking other languages to be "vile" or "a threat." Within the context of Dragonrealms, however, I do consider it to be disruptive.

For some reason, what I am infering from Dio's posts is that not only are other languages not disruptive to him, he does not even register them as being other languages, or think of them as being out of context. I do in fact notice that they are a non-English language, and it is rather jarring to me. Walking around a university campus or on the streets of a major city, I would expect to hear other "real-life" languages. walking around the streets of Crossing, however, catching bits of French or Korean is definately not something I or my charcter can reasonably expect.

While I would most likley not kill someone's character for speaking another language, the fact remains that English is my native language (culturally, historically, and ancestrally), and in Dragonrealms, English is considered to be "Common." French is not Common; it is not any language in the Dragonrealms fantasy world: it is out of character.

Honestly, the use of "common" is a fairly well established convention in the fantasy genre. The assumption (and yes, I know, Dio's player won't assume anything, he's worse than my philosophy teacher) is that the language being spoken by the characters in a fantasy setting is "common," which either happens to be identical to the language the book is written in, usually english, or, in the case of more linguistically sophisticated tales, such as LotR, has been translated into english in its entirety. Dragonrealms is one of the former. The story takes place in Common, and Common, by design or cosmic coincidence, is identical in all respects to modern English, with all its intact dialects, accents, speech impediments, and deliberate affectations.

I don't know if any of this rambling helps to clarify my viewpoint, and I certainly don't understand Dio's stance that speaking in other languages is not at all disruptive, but it has been officially stated on at least one occasion that Common is English and only English, and that any other real or made-up language aside from those languages presented in the game is out-of-character and considered disruptive. I don't think anyone ever said it implied consent to kill, but it is certainly a reportable/assistable offense, for disruptive behavior. As always, however, it is generally left up to the discretion of the GM/GH handling the situation.

>>1) it is currently impossible for any character to know more than their own private language and common.>>

>>wrong.

>>see Aura of tongues enchante. Bard ability. :-)

I don't think they were wrong. Do you actually know it? Understand it yes, but only while the enchante is going on.

Brabs

---

Fighting with a bunch of archers in Geni.

"Hey, it's shoot GENI, not shoot GEN!"

---

[Arcath] "Public Service Announcement: Please shoot at the archers and not at Arcath"

---

Your mind hears Gelicast thinking, "shoot the gelv cyclops, not gelicast"

>frankly i think it gives the realms a more universal appeal to be open to having other languages spoken.

This is true for me, as well ... very much so. To me the lack of anything but English in very populated areas like Crossing is actually a bit irritating, like there's something missing.

>Particularly when DR HAS customers in europe and elsewhere - let people speak what they like IF they are communicating with EACH OTHER.

Hear, hear! This would be what I would enjoy the most. From a personal stance, I'd love it to hear a range of languages floating around. Yes, yes, Simu has to control every word that crosses their servers because of the nature of the business, but I think that's sad, not something at all praiseworthy.

I've met folks from all over the place in DR. It would be quite pleasant, to me at least, for them to be able to bring that out to give more range and diversity to the game.

Many of my favorite books do use other languages, often quite extensively and not translated. The old convention of 'everyone speaks one language' often annoys me no end. Because of the difficulty of creating languages from whole cloth, I'd rather an author use a modified version of an earth language, and some do. That, to me, is what I like. <shrug>

DR can't do that, obviously, because of the range of players, so I'd say the closest alternate is to allow reasonable use of languages other than English. Perhaps with a disclaimer and caution to anyone using them that abuse of other languages to avoid the vulgarity or other rules will be punished far more harshly than violations in English to allow for the difficulty of policing them.

Dio, player of

<<I've met folks from all over the place in DR. It would be quite pleasant, to me at least, for them to be able to bring that out to give more range and diversity to the game.>>

Diversity is already defined within the game by its design, which includes in-game languages and "common", which is English. The game does not need "diversity" in the form of OOC and OOG languages. Period. They do not belong in the setting, and they cannot be justified as legitimate alternatives of communication within the scope and boundaries of the game itself.

<<DR can't do that, obviously, because of the range of players, so I'd say the closest alternate is to allow reasonable use of languages other than English.>>

Languages other than English do not exist in the game, and so their appearance in the game is reference to OOC and OOG material. Again, the game defines its parameters, and other languages have not been included. Additionally, as has been stated before, there are legal rammifications to allowing languages other than English and in-game fictional languages to be spoken. Thus on at least two levels it is inappropriate and undesirable to speak OOG languages.

There is no reasonable justification that languages other than those that have been defined as allowable and appropriate by the game itself should be allowed within the game.

A note on the "languages in books" argument:

The context of the game defines what languages are appropriate, just as the context of a book defines what languages are found within its pages. The author of a book has control over what languages are found in his story; if he determines that a language "fits" his story, he uses that language and it becomes an element of the story. In DragonRealms, we, the characters, are the authors of the story -- only I would liken us to writers basing our stories in another person's existing world. As authors treading in someone else's creation, we are obligated to follow the creator's rules, just as traditional authors are obligated to follow their own rules and definitions about what is appropriate for their own stories.

Would you see out-of-genre languages like French in the Forgotten Realms? Of course not. Nor should you see such languages in Elanthia. They do not belong.


~Vraniss~

die
and be free of pain
or live
and fight your sorrow

What amazes me is just how incredibly violently some people react. You'd think I was talking about a chorus line of dancing naked cabana boys in full visual array on the town green. Oh well, me and most of my friends might be poor, uneducated, working class stiffs ... but at least we don't throw a foaming at the mouth fit at mere exposure to another language.

Dio, player of

[breakingpromiseofnotpostingagain]

>but at least we don't throw a foaming at the mouth fit at mere exposure to another language.

No reason you should act that way unless that is how you play your character.

[/breakingpromiseofnotpostingagain]

---

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
~Herm Albright

Not to derail the theoretical debate, but unless Niktoahl has changed hands recently, or something, the player has a perfectly good grasp of the English language.

A little factoid I found amusing in light of the ensuing debate.

Anyone wanna make a bet on the odds that the original poster of this tread is laughing at you all for continuing to argue?

I have gone to find myself, if I get back before I return keep me here.

>befri list
You don't have any friends!

I know this is an old thread, but I've been reading several pages of posts and feel that some things need to be said.
1. English is NOT the official language of the U.S. There is no official language.
2. Private companies cannot require their customers to speak English at all times. They cannot even require that their employees speak English at all times. The only times an employee may be required to speak English is when it interferes with helping a customer or interacting with fellow employees. Of course, when it comes to players, they are customers. See above.
3. There is nothing in the official policy about requiring people to speak English, nor is there an English fluency test to pass. Many translation programs can automatically translate text, so one cannot say that a person absolutely needs to be fluent to play.
4. It is possible that people come here to practice English. If they don't know a word (including how to use the whisper command), their native language is the only way to communicate with everyone else.
5. Why is the biggest thing bothering people about people speaking another language that they can't understand what others are saying? Evesdropping (please forgive the spelling error- I can't remember how it is spelled) itself is rude. If someone is talking to someone who is clearly not you, it shouldn't matter if you can or cannot understand them.

Thanks for reading my long post.
- Najeem's player

Sorry, man. Discrimination is one of my hot-button issues. I was honestly here looking for something that would be useful to discuss with my new-player husband so he doesn't end up as a grease stain. ;) But I've put in my two cents on this topic and I'm done. Let this deceased equine continue to make its merry way to the glue factory.

This thread is like 6 years old...