It came up in Plat that no one over there hunts the zombies and bone wolves in the sun vulture area. Does anyone hunt them in Prime or are they a waste of real estate? If no one hunts them then why? Is it the critters themselves or is it the location?
GM Alvy
DR-ALVY
MOOK1
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 11:41 AM CDT
I think its the hassle of getting there that's the issue, if I'm thinking of the right area.
-Evran
Gay, geeky, and a little bit cheeky.
-Evran
Gay, geeky, and a little bit cheeky.
URUTU
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 11:54 AM CDT
Isn't that a cleric only area, or at least requires holy magic or something to get in or to be as safe as possible?
Entry puzzles and mazes are generally okay (I don't like them but from a design standpoint they're understandable) but putting go/nogo entry requirements on areas is usually a bad design idea. That is unless a GM is just bound and determined only that not many characters will ever go there. The abyss is another example of this I believe, and the icy blue ghast area in P5? I've never hunted in any of those places because as I've been told either:
1) I can't get in, or
2) There are other creatures that train just as well that are lesss hassle to get to (path of least resistance)
From a design standpoint something like needing blessed weapons to hunt a certain creature falls into this category since only one guild can fulfill the requirements to being able to hunt in a ghost area. But a cleric can bless as many weapons as a non-cleric needs to go and hunt in a ghost area. Maybe something like that can be done with things like cursed doors and such. Don't need to have a cleric, only have a blessed lockpick or something. Or a PFE charm made by a cleric that allows safer entry into the sun vulture area? This is like WMs being the only way to get the triske medallions for the hive, but at least there's a way provided for non-WMs to get access to the area.
In general, guild specific areas have a place, such as The Ways, but as a general design for hunting grounds it's harder to come up with a justification, at least the way I see it. I know I expanded a bit on your question, but the root issue extends beyond the sun vulture area.
Been a while since I thought about these areas, hopefully I'm remembering them accurately.
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
>You hear a blood-curdling shriek from the southeast.
>You ponder.
>You go west.
Entry puzzles and mazes are generally okay (I don't like them but from a design standpoint they're understandable) but putting go/nogo entry requirements on areas is usually a bad design idea. That is unless a GM is just bound and determined only that not many characters will ever go there. The abyss is another example of this I believe, and the icy blue ghast area in P5? I've never hunted in any of those places because as I've been told either:
1) I can't get in, or
2) There are other creatures that train just as well that are lesss hassle to get to (path of least resistance)
From a design standpoint something like needing blessed weapons to hunt a certain creature falls into this category since only one guild can fulfill the requirements to being able to hunt in a ghost area. But a cleric can bless as many weapons as a non-cleric needs to go and hunt in a ghost area. Maybe something like that can be done with things like cursed doors and such. Don't need to have a cleric, only have a blessed lockpick or something. Or a PFE charm made by a cleric that allows safer entry into the sun vulture area? This is like WMs being the only way to get the triske medallions for the hive, but at least there's a way provided for non-WMs to get access to the area.
In general, guild specific areas have a place, such as The Ways, but as a general design for hunting grounds it's harder to come up with a justification, at least the way I see it. I know I expanded a bit on your question, but the root issue extends beyond the sun vulture area.
Been a while since I thought about these areas, hopefully I'm remembering them accurately.
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
>You hear a blood-curdling shriek from the southeast.
>You ponder.
>You go west.
LUCKYSEVENS
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 12:16 PM CDT
I LOVE this area! It is one of my favorite 'lost and forgotten' areas in the game. (I feel like I say that all the time, but it's true)!
However, it's broken, in terms of fun.
1. The Gate is beyond annoying. It is very rare to find a Cleric when you need/want to hunt. PFE runes/rattles are rare and expensive for that level of hunting. Perhaps make it a puzzle that all guilds can solve, or make it a climbing obstacle (50-75ish ranks)?
2. I'm not sure if the Sun Vulture attack has been fixed. It used to be woefully overpowered for the level of the vultures and it would stack, causing you to never unstun. If this has been fixed and I just don't recall, my apologies. I want to say maybe Dartenian fixed it?
3. I think it would be great to tier the area (like seordmaors only spawn on top of their hill) by keeping the vultures on top and zombies/wolves on the bottom.
4. It would be great if the tumulus could be made into a climbing obstacle. Remove some of the 'Ups' and make them into climbs. Again, similar to seordmaors. It would be a great transition spot for climbing before hitting the Lang trees.
Thanks for soliciting suggestions! I'm excited to see what/if anything comes of it!
GENT
However, it's broken, in terms of fun.
1. The Gate is beyond annoying. It is very rare to find a Cleric when you need/want to hunt. PFE runes/rattles are rare and expensive for that level of hunting. Perhaps make it a puzzle that all guilds can solve, or make it a climbing obstacle (50-75ish ranks)?
2. I'm not sure if the Sun Vulture attack has been fixed. It used to be woefully overpowered for the level of the vultures and it would stack, causing you to never unstun. If this has been fixed and I just don't recall, my apologies. I want to say maybe Dartenian fixed it?
3. I think it would be great to tier the area (like seordmaors only spawn on top of their hill) by keeping the vultures on top and zombies/wolves on the bottom.
4. It would be great if the tumulus could be made into a climbing obstacle. Remove some of the 'Ups' and make them into climbs. Again, similar to seordmaors. It would be a great transition spot for climbing before hitting the Lang trees.
Thanks for soliciting suggestions! I'm excited to see what/if anything comes of it!
GENT
URUTU
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 12:38 PM CDT
<<PFE runes/rattles>>
Interesting! Being a thief I don't think in terms of magic. Good post, GENT.
And there is an appeal to being away from the crowds and beaten path.
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
>You hear a blood-curdling shriek from the southeast.
>You ponder.
>You go west.
Interesting! Being a thief I don't think in terms of magic. Good post, GENT.
And there is an appeal to being away from the crowds and beaten path.
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
>You hear a blood-curdling shriek from the southeast.
>You ponder.
>You go west.
CLEARLEAF
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 12:38 PM CDT
>2. I'm not sure if the Sun Vulture attack has been fixed. It used to be woefully overpowered for the level of the vultures and it would stack, causing you to never unstun. If this has been fixed and I just don't recall, my apologies. I want to say maybe Dartenian fixed it?
If I recall it was this for my character. I loved the area, and spent quite a long time over the bank from wolves foraging and being visited by the occasional escapee. But the special attack was just too powerful at level, I couldn't safely hunt there. I love a challenge, and generally prefer coming out of a hunting session with a bleeder or three than unscathed, but those stuns were obnoxious.
And I agree with everything Kaxis said. I don't mind getting weapons blessed or shelling out for a PFE charm, but areas where you need an escort are just going to turn into a ghost-town. Especially if the area is IN a ghost-town.
If I recall it was this for my character. I loved the area, and spent quite a long time over the bank from wolves foraging and being visited by the occasional escapee. But the special attack was just too powerful at level, I couldn't safely hunt there. I love a challenge, and generally prefer coming out of a hunting session with a bleeder or three than unscathed, but those stuns were obnoxious.
And I agree with everything Kaxis said. I don't mind getting weapons blessed or shelling out for a PFE charm, but areas where you need an escort are just going to turn into a ghost-town. Especially if the area is IN a ghost-town.
DR-ALVY
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 12:59 PM CDT
Great posts so far!
Gent's post got me to thinking so I have a hypothetical question to add to my previous questions.
If sun vultures were to become a more desireable hunting area, would you rather see:
A. The zombies and bone wolves gone and replaced with a second tier of different skilled sun vultures?
B. The area tiered off so each critter has its own rooms?
C. The critters stay as is?
GM Alvy
Gent's post got me to thinking so I have a hypothetical question to add to my previous questions.
If sun vultures were to become a more desireable hunting area, would you rather see:
A. The zombies and bone wolves gone and replaced with a second tier of different skilled sun vultures?
B. The area tiered off so each critter has its own rooms?
C. The critters stay as is?
GM Alvy
URUTU
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 01:57 PM CDT
As for possible changes to the hunting area and sun vultures I'll let others who have actually hunted there comment. Except I'll say I've hunted bone and blood wolves and revenant zombies elsewhere, and they're all very useful critters for their level. Not sure eliminating them would improve the area any. And it would elminate the only box creature in there.
For me, and I'm going to guess lots of folks, the PFE requirement for the gate makes the area a non-starter regardless of other changes. If the PFE has to stay, then there needs to be some compelling reason to go to the increased trouble to hunt there. And at that level I'm not sure what could make it a must-hunt area. I hate to suggest moving or eliminating the area. Maybe have the vultures lay magic eggs that act as one-charge polo cloaks or some other highly sought-after item. Or maybe vulture eggs can be hurled like grenades using LT skill and causing the vulture death explosion Heh
It's just so much easier to hunt in blood wolves right next door.
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
>You hear a blood-curdling shriek from the southeast.
>You ponder.
>You go west.
For me, and I'm going to guess lots of folks, the PFE requirement for the gate makes the area a non-starter regardless of other changes. If the PFE has to stay, then there needs to be some compelling reason to go to the increased trouble to hunt there. And at that level I'm not sure what could make it a must-hunt area. I hate to suggest moving or eliminating the area. Maybe have the vultures lay magic eggs that act as one-charge polo cloaks or some other highly sought-after item. Or maybe vulture eggs can be hurled like grenades using LT skill and causing the vulture death explosion Heh
It's just so much easier to hunt in blood wolves right next door.
Kaxis
http://www.tinyurl.com/kaxisforgedarmor
>You hear a blood-curdling shriek from the southeast.
>You ponder.
>You go west.
NEELD
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 03:39 PM CDT
<<It came up in Plat that no one over there hunts the zombies and bone wolves in the sun vulture area. Does anyone hunt them in Prime or are they a waste of real estate? If no one hunts them then why? Is it the critters themselves or is it the location?
Holy cow I have been begging for years for this place to get some love. This is my favorite hunting area in the game frankly.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Leave the bone wolf lair alone (including the easter egg located in the lair). I think this area is great as-is.
2. Sun vultures still stun my main character so that special attack is out of whack for their level.
3. I would recommend you keep zombies and bone wolfs on the first level. Put the sun vultures on the upper "pyramid level".
4. The reason no one can hunt the area is the sun vulture special attack is over-powering so nothing can be hunted "at level".
5. Pretty please make sun vultures like 150th circle stuff and keep them at the very top? It would make sense actually...they have two ubber special attacks, so you just need to jack up their defenses.
Madigan
Holy cow I have been begging for years for this place to get some love. This is my favorite hunting area in the game frankly.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Leave the bone wolf lair alone (including the easter egg located in the lair). I think this area is great as-is.
2. Sun vultures still stun my main character so that special attack is out of whack for their level.
3. I would recommend you keep zombies and bone wolfs on the first level. Put the sun vultures on the upper "pyramid level".
4. The reason no one can hunt the area is the sun vulture special attack is over-powering so nothing can be hunted "at level".
5. Pretty please make sun vultures like 150th circle stuff and keep them at the very top? It would make sense actually...they have two ubber special attacks, so you just need to jack up their defenses.
Madigan
LUCKYSEVENS
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/19/2011 10:12 PM CDT
Hmm.
My ideas/wishlist:
1. Open up the lair so that larger races don't have to crawl. Remove the random nerve damage that occurs and keep it only in the room with the easter egg. That room should be dangerous. Jack up the spawn of the bone wolves and keep them in there by themselves.
2. Jack up the spawn of the zombies on the bottom of the hill. Hopefully these could bridge the gap between the wood troll/kelpie area and blood wolves.
3. Keep the vultures on the top level only. Separate the areas with climbs. Fix the vulture special attack so that it is at level.
I'll post in a separate thread, but this could be a wonderful chance to fix the flow/ladder in the area. Lang/Theren would be perfect with just a few tweaks here and there!
GENT
My ideas/wishlist:
1. Open up the lair so that larger races don't have to crawl. Remove the random nerve damage that occurs and keep it only in the room with the easter egg. That room should be dangerous. Jack up the spawn of the bone wolves and keep them in there by themselves.
2. Jack up the spawn of the zombies on the bottom of the hill. Hopefully these could bridge the gap between the wood troll/kelpie area and blood wolves.
3. Keep the vultures on the top level only. Separate the areas with climbs. Fix the vulture special attack so that it is at level.
I'll post in a separate thread, but this could be a wonderful chance to fix the flow/ladder in the area. Lang/Theren would be perfect with just a few tweaks here and there!
GENT
KLINDHH1
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/20/2011 08:10 AM CDT
I hunted the sun vultures for a while but I agree with them being overpowered. By the time you can survive in there you are learning nothing and I do mean nothing.
Using a piece of rune jewelry to get in is also a huge investment and requires travelling to a distant city to purchase. You also need the magic skills to use this well enough to get through as well.
I never considered the bone wolf area to be a viable option because of the damage and the fact that the gate/door is hard to get through.
So what I'd really like to see is the vultures splitting off into their own area and having it made so that you can learn off them and survive. I like the idea of making sun vultures more difficult as their hearts are a really nice thing.
Which makes me think - just what are heartstones supposed to look like anyway? Heartstones could really use updating to work like other "new" gems so they have appraisable qualities etc... and a description.
Using a piece of rune jewelry to get in is also a huge investment and requires travelling to a distant city to purchase. You also need the magic skills to use this well enough to get through as well.
I never considered the bone wolf area to be a viable option because of the damage and the fact that the gate/door is hard to get through.
So what I'd really like to see is the vultures splitting off into their own area and having it made so that you can learn off them and survive. I like the idea of making sun vultures more difficult as their hearts are a really nice thing.
Which makes me think - just what are heartstones supposed to look like anyway? Heartstones could really use updating to work like other "new" gems so they have appraisable qualities etc... and a description.
NEELD
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/20/2011 10:41 AM CDT
Second whine/post about making sun vultures an ubber creature. Stick at the top of the pyramid inside the tomb and jack them up a ton.
I kinda like the odd nature of the lair, so I would keep it a crawl space for larger people. In my view, that area is not a hunting area (keep the main area bone wolves/zombies) and getting to the lair (and the easter egg) a bit of an adventure.
Madigan
I kinda like the odd nature of the lair, so I would keep it a crawl space for larger people. In my view, that area is not a hunting area (keep the main area bone wolves/zombies) and getting to the lair (and the easter egg) a bit of an adventure.
Madigan
TELGER
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/20/2011 11:45 AM CDT
>>I kinda like the odd nature of the lair, so I would keep it a crawl space for larger people.
Then make it so a Barb can't berserk to stand where they're not supposed to.
~Cazvelu
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
Then make it so a Barb can't berserk to stand where they're not supposed to.
~Cazvelu
"To be honest, my son, the practice of Holy magic is really just reckless tampering with one's soul."
DR-ALVY
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/20/2011 02:25 PM CDT
Very helpful comments so far! Some things I knew needed help like the evil PFE gate. I knew the sun vultures needed an overhaul but it helps to see why through a player's eye.
I kind of like the wolves lair as is myself, its not like they can't be hunted nearby and the surprise there was one of the neatest discoveries I found as a young player.
Sorry Madigan, I don't see sun vultures becoming an uber critter any time soon.
GM Alvy
I kind of like the wolves lair as is myself, its not like they can't be hunted nearby and the surprise there was one of the neatest discoveries I found as a young player.
Sorry Madigan, I don't see sun vultures becoming an uber critter any time soon.
GM Alvy
NEELD
Re: Zombies and Bone Wolves
04/20/2011 02:33 PM CDT
<<Sorry Madigan, I don't see sun vultures becoming an uber critter any time soon.
Hey, no worries. I am just really pumped that you are taking some time with that great area of the game.
There are all sorts of tricks to not crawl in the lair you might want to fix:
1. Dragging an item makes you not crawl (or at least the last time I tried it). This also works in the area under the Theren Keep.
2. Any magic/ability that sets you to standing from another state (i.e. berserk, TiP or Protect Self).
The "things" you find in the lair are not on the new system, but I rather like it that way frankly. They are very unique.
Madigan
Hey, no worries. I am just really pumped that you are taking some time with that great area of the game.
There are all sorts of tricks to not crawl in the lair you might want to fix:
1. Dragging an item makes you not crawl (or at least the last time I tried it). This also works in the area under the Theren Keep.
2. Any magic/ability that sets you to standing from another state (i.e. berserk, TiP or Protect Self).
The "things" you find in the lair are not on the new system, but I rather like it that way frankly. They are very unique.
Madigan
