Several people have mentioned the obvious things -- like "what the blazin' hell did they do to Faramir?" and "could they have spent more time making fun of Gimli?" Here are some more really bad calls they made. It contains spoilers in case people care...
Why did they have to make Treebeard stupid? Yes, in the book, it takes awhile for him to get up to speed, but it's not because he's stupid. Treebeard is one of the oldest living creatures in Middle Earth. You don't hang around that long without getting a clue.
Would it have been better to simply have left Eomer out than to barely have him around like they did? Maybe they'll use him in part III.
What was with Saruman actually possessing Theoden? That was just weird. And if Saruman could do that, what was the point of having Grima there? "Magic" in Middle Earth is a subtle and tricky concept. You'll notice that not even Gandalf the White can do a simple (by DR standards) thing like throw a fireball.
What is with the elves showing up at Helm's Deep? They apparently took the place of the Dunedain. As far as I can figure, they felt like they didn't want to introduce another set of people. It doesn't seem like it would have been that hard to explain though. They're Aragorn's people, the Rangers. The advantage of sticking to the story there is that it gives Aragorn's character a little more background besides his relationship with the elves.
Why was everyone criticizing Theoden's decision to go to Helm's Deep? It was the right tactical call. That orc army would have overrun their little hill-fort in about five minutes. There's a lot of "fighting desperately in a hopeless cause" in LOTR. Yes, Helm's Deep had its disadvantages, but it was the best of a bad situation. This actually works back to the Faramir issue...
Looking ahead (enormous spoiler here), I'm curious to see what they do with the Faramir-Eowyn romance. As they've painted him, Faramir is NOT worthy of Eowyn. I can't imagine they're not going to play up the Eowyn storyline, given that they want to bolster the female roles. It's ironic, since they clearly want to have a "romance" element in the movies. They've spent so much time on the Aragorn-Arwen thing, but I always found the Faramir-Eowyn romance much more interesting and compelling (and human). If they go through Eowyn getting her heart broken by Aragorn and then throw her THIS Faramir as the consolation prize, I'm going to be very unhappy.
Just my thoughts.
BRANKLAR
NORT
Re: Things that peeved me in the Two Towers that haven't been mentioned
02/05/2003 11:18 AM CST
>What was with Saruman actually possessing Theoden? That was just weird. And if Saruman could do that, what was the point of having Grima there?
My take is that Grima was there to start the process. Saruman wouldn't have been able to just pop in there and play Theoden like a puppet without some 'in'. Grima planted suggestions in Theoden's head, which opened him to Saruman's influence. Also, I doubt that Saruman was actually possessing him the whole time. He probably showed up to laugh at Gandalf, but got smacked around instead.
>What is with the elves showing up at Helm's Deep? (and the Faramir-Eowyn thing, at the same time)
From the looks of it, the elves already left for their trip across the sea, most of them. Im thinking that the majority of those who came to Helm's Deep were from Lothlorien, and only a few from Rivendell. The Eowyn-Faramir thing....agree wholeheartedly. Faramir was a crazy fool, far too much like Boromir than he should be. Eowyn is well portrayed, but I myself am somewhat wondering about the Aragorn-Arwen thing. It really all depends on how far into the Apendicies the movies will draw from. Did Arwen really leave to go across the sea? If she did, I suspect that it will become an Aragorn-Eowyn relationship. Not horrible, but not really accurate.
>Why was everyone criticizing Theoden's decision to go to Helm's Deep?
Well....it was a good decision, yes, but only because Theoden completely underestimated the aptitude of Sauramon's forces. He held to the belief that nothing could POSSIBLY get past the outer wall, ever. One good argument against the Deep was the method of fighting for Rohinians. They are master horsemen. A strategy of quick and powerful horse raids upon the massive army might have proven just as effective as hiding in the Deep. As it is, the way they won is by riding. Oh, and Gimli and Aragorn holding the entry to the keep like they did. That was cool...
I hold out fairly good hopes for the third movie. They do very good work with battle scenes, and the siege of Minis Tirith should be quite interesting. Im also curious as to the fate of Frodo. It really depends where in the book they stop the 'movie making'. Will they do the bit when the hobbits get back home, and Merri and Pippin prove their mettle? Will they go all the way into the apendicies, show Aragorn and Arwen married, Frodo and Sam going over the ocean with the elves? Legolas and Gimli visiting the Fanghorn Forest for the elf to show the dwarf the beauty of it....heck, they need to make a fourth movie. LotR: Appendicies.
Drakkenn Rarenth, Toggish Minister
My take is that Grima was there to start the process. Saruman wouldn't have been able to just pop in there and play Theoden like a puppet without some 'in'. Grima planted suggestions in Theoden's head, which opened him to Saruman's influence. Also, I doubt that Saruman was actually possessing him the whole time. He probably showed up to laugh at Gandalf, but got smacked around instead.
>What is with the elves showing up at Helm's Deep? (and the Faramir-Eowyn thing, at the same time)
From the looks of it, the elves already left for their trip across the sea, most of them. Im thinking that the majority of those who came to Helm's Deep were from Lothlorien, and only a few from Rivendell. The Eowyn-Faramir thing....agree wholeheartedly. Faramir was a crazy fool, far too much like Boromir than he should be. Eowyn is well portrayed, but I myself am somewhat wondering about the Aragorn-Arwen thing. It really all depends on how far into the Apendicies the movies will draw from. Did Arwen really leave to go across the sea? If she did, I suspect that it will become an Aragorn-Eowyn relationship. Not horrible, but not really accurate.
>Why was everyone criticizing Theoden's decision to go to Helm's Deep?
Well....it was a good decision, yes, but only because Theoden completely underestimated the aptitude of Sauramon's forces. He held to the belief that nothing could POSSIBLY get past the outer wall, ever. One good argument against the Deep was the method of fighting for Rohinians. They are master horsemen. A strategy of quick and powerful horse raids upon the massive army might have proven just as effective as hiding in the Deep. As it is, the way they won is by riding. Oh, and Gimli and Aragorn holding the entry to the keep like they did. That was cool...
I hold out fairly good hopes for the third movie. They do very good work with battle scenes, and the siege of Minis Tirith should be quite interesting. Im also curious as to the fate of Frodo. It really depends where in the book they stop the 'movie making'. Will they do the bit when the hobbits get back home, and Merri and Pippin prove their mettle? Will they go all the way into the apendicies, show Aragorn and Arwen married, Frodo and Sam going over the ocean with the elves? Legolas and Gimli visiting the Fanghorn Forest for the elf to show the dwarf the beauty of it....heck, they need to make a fourth movie. LotR: Appendicies.
Drakkenn Rarenth, Toggish Minister
ECKVAHL1
Re: Things that peeved me in the Two Towers that haven't been mentioned
02/06/2003 01:15 AM CST
I really enjoyed both movies, and I do understand the difficulty of taking a book, especially one as complex as LOTR and transferring it to the medium of a movie.....BUT........I HATE what they did with Faramir. He was such a good, noble, deep thinking, intelligent man, and they made him into this little........well, anyway, you get the point.
With regard to Arwen and Aragorn. I don't really have too much trouble with the way they've handled it thus far, inaccurate though it may be. Tolkein himself said that the relationship of the two was extremely important, partly because Elrond would not allow Arwen to marry Aragorn unless he became king of Gondor and Arnor. That gave Aragorn quite an incentive to carry on when he felt less than up to the job. Tolkein went on to say that the reason he didn't develop their relationship as much within the body of the book was because he wanted it to be more "Hobbit-centric".
One of my favorite lines from all the books is Faramir's:
"...but I do not love the sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend . . . "
-Seck
With regard to Arwen and Aragorn. I don't really have too much trouble with the way they've handled it thus far, inaccurate though it may be. Tolkein himself said that the relationship of the two was extremely important, partly because Elrond would not allow Arwen to marry Aragorn unless he became king of Gondor and Arnor. That gave Aragorn quite an incentive to carry on when he felt less than up to the job. Tolkein went on to say that the reason he didn't develop their relationship as much within the body of the book was because he wanted it to be more "Hobbit-centric".
One of my favorite lines from all the books is Faramir's:
"...but I do not love the sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend . . . "
-Seck
BRANKLAR
Re: Things that peeved me in the Two Towers that haven't been mentioned
02/06/2003 08:37 AM CST
>The Eowyn-Faramir thing....agree wholeheartedly. Faramir was a crazy fool, far too much like Boromir than he should be. Eowyn is well portrayed, but I myself am somewhat wondering about the Aragorn-Arwen thing. It really all depends on how far into the Apendicies the movies will draw from. Did Arwen really leave to go across the sea? If she did, I suspect that it will become an Aragorn-Eowyn relationship. Not horrible, but not really accurate.
There's no way Arwen is gone. Peter Jackson is far too in love with Liv Tyler to do that. (But isn't it odd that Arwen is less attractive than Liv? Have you seen Armageddon? Whatever they did to make her an Elf was not flattering...) Plus they've played up the Aragorn-Arwen thing too much to let it go.
>Well....it was a good decision, yes, but only because Theoden completely underestimated the aptitude of Sauramon's forces. He held to the belief that nothing could POSSIBLY get past the outer wall, ever. One good argument against the Deep was the method of fighting for Rohinians. They are master horsemen. A strategy of quick and powerful horse raids upon the massive army might have proven just as effective as hiding in the Deep. As it is, the way they won is by riding.
The problem with the guerrilla-cavalry idea is that they have all those women and children to protect. If I'm Saruman and they pull that, I just aim my army at the innocents and say, "Fine, you want to raid my flanks, my orcs are going to be eating your children by tomorrow." Basically, they were screwed. At least by going to a fortified place like Helm's Deep they could pull an Alamo and take as many as possible with them.
As I alluded to, that is (or is SUPPOSED to be) the heroism of Faramir. He knows that Gondor can't stand against Mordor. Regardless, he's out there, fighting them for every inch of ground, killing as many of the enemy as he can. In the end (SPOILER), of course, all this fighting in a hopeless cause pays off because it buys Frodo and Sam the time they need.
There's no way Arwen is gone. Peter Jackson is far too in love with Liv Tyler to do that. (But isn't it odd that Arwen is less attractive than Liv? Have you seen Armageddon? Whatever they did to make her an Elf was not flattering...) Plus they've played up the Aragorn-Arwen thing too much to let it go.
>Well....it was a good decision, yes, but only because Theoden completely underestimated the aptitude of Sauramon's forces. He held to the belief that nothing could POSSIBLY get past the outer wall, ever. One good argument against the Deep was the method of fighting for Rohinians. They are master horsemen. A strategy of quick and powerful horse raids upon the massive army might have proven just as effective as hiding in the Deep. As it is, the way they won is by riding.
The problem with the guerrilla-cavalry idea is that they have all those women and children to protect. If I'm Saruman and they pull that, I just aim my army at the innocents and say, "Fine, you want to raid my flanks, my orcs are going to be eating your children by tomorrow." Basically, they were screwed. At least by going to a fortified place like Helm's Deep they could pull an Alamo and take as many as possible with them.
As I alluded to, that is (or is SUPPOSED to be) the heroism of Faramir. He knows that Gondor can't stand against Mordor. Regardless, he's out there, fighting them for every inch of ground, killing as many of the enemy as he can. In the end (SPOILER), of course, all this fighting in a hopeless cause pays off because it buys Frodo and Sam the time they need.
SOUTHERK
Re: Things that peeved me in the Two Towers that haven't been mentioned
02/06/2003 03:03 PM CST
In the book, Helm's Deep was considered a lost cause from the start, it just was a better option for defeat than not going there. Only with the arrival of the Treebeard's kin, the Huorns, that saved Helm's Deep. Though, Gandalf did lead them there.
"The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed."
All the riders and Gandalf did was drive the orcs into the forest to be slaughtered.
I don't see any purpose in the elf archers arriving at all, as the age of the elves was past with the First and Second Age, and no force would of been "sacrificed" at Helm's Deep. The elves are brave, but not suicidal. Their forces would of been kept to guard their own domains against the real threat, which was Sauron.
Saruman was but a shadow of the real evil of Middle Earth; a cheap imitation of Sauron and his army. What played out in Helm's Deep was important for those who participated in it (they lived at least!), but in the grand scheme of things, very insignificant. It was a prelude to the real war with Sauron. No force in Middle Earth could be mustered or avail to the power of Sauron's army that was coming, and this was generally accepted by the wise of Middle Earth (the elves were the first to accept this fact...it is why they had pretty much given up).
Ken/Gidske
"The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed."
All the riders and Gandalf did was drive the orcs into the forest to be slaughtered.
I don't see any purpose in the elf archers arriving at all, as the age of the elves was past with the First and Second Age, and no force would of been "sacrificed" at Helm's Deep. The elves are brave, but not suicidal. Their forces would of been kept to guard their own domains against the real threat, which was Sauron.
Saruman was but a shadow of the real evil of Middle Earth; a cheap imitation of Sauron and his army. What played out in Helm's Deep was important for those who participated in it (they lived at least!), but in the grand scheme of things, very insignificant. It was a prelude to the real war with Sauron. No force in Middle Earth could be mustered or avail to the power of Sauron's army that was coming, and this was generally accepted by the wise of Middle Earth (the elves were the first to accept this fact...it is why they had pretty much given up).
Ken/Gidske
MEKHI
Re: Things that peeved me in the Two Towers that haven't been mentioned
03/13/2003 09:01 PM CST
The film is *based on* the book. It isn't the book. Expect things to be different. <g>
~King Mek
"If at first you don't succeed, expect me to point and/or laugh. At you."
~King Mek
"If at first you don't succeed, expect me to point and/or laugh. At you."
DRAQ
Re: Things that peeved me in the Two Towers that haven't been mentioned
03/14/2003 04:42 PM CST
I don't care if it was different. It was still a DAMN good movie.
Steel.
I can't decide on a quote. I have too many.
Steel.
I can't decide on a quote. I have too many.
