I wanted to at least say goodbye on the scrolls but the speaker removed me already, so here is my goodbye along with a why.
I will miss you all and I really didn't want to leave the order, but I cannot be a butt kisser to the speaker and that is what he wants. He says things then denies them. If he doesn't have a good answer he falls back on the by-laws or says it was implied. He is trying to turn an order whose primary function is to reunite the empire through peace and teaching into a militia to take over the realms in the name of the empire. I'm sure if he reads this he will say I am a liar , but you all know me and I hope at least some of you will believe me. I have always wanted to be in this order, but cannot follow a speaker who's is running it into the ground. Feel free to contact me. I will miss you all. I hope I will see most of you around the realms.
ZANINI
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/19/2008 09:52 PM CDT
>>He is trying to turn an order whose primary function is to reunite the empire through peace and teaching into a militia to take over the realms in the name of the empire.
So what you're saying is he's keeping the spirit of the Empire alive.
I don't deny Manze (and a couple of his friends on the WR council) acts out of character quite a lot, is often misinformed and has behaved dishonestly in the past, but it's also disingenuous to claim the Empire was all about peace and love and holding hands.
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
So what you're saying is he's keeping the spirit of the Empire alive.
I don't deny Manze (and a couple of his friends on the WR council) acts out of character quite a lot, is often misinformed and has behaved dishonestly in the past, but it's also disingenuous to claim the Empire was all about peace and love and holding hands.
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
ZANINI
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 05:41 AM CDT
I did not say the Empire was about peace and love and such ...I said the order was as I recall about reuniting the empire through the education of the masses and aiding those in need, not about conquest.
On a side note thanks for busting my gweth for a slip of the tongue, next time though maybe you could offer advice on how to say something properly before busting so as to educate those of us who are not perfect role players.
On a side note thanks for busting my gweth for a slip of the tongue, next time though maybe you could offer advice on how to say something properly before busting so as to educate those of us who are not perfect role players.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 05:53 AM CDT
The Empire simply wasn't about educating the masses (though "educating" in that special way might apply; go go cultural homogenization) or helping those in need, though. It was about subjugation and military conquest, and it was a corrupt system besides. "Uniting Kermoria" is one thing and a fine sentiment for a huggy sort of Order, but "resurrecting the Empire" is quite another and carries entirely different and negative connotations with it - not the least of which is the fact that it means the Order essentially opposes every Kermorian government, because bringing back the Empire would mean dissolving them. Part of the reason it got divided up into 5 provinces is because the Empire was broken and corrupt. Teiro wanted to preserve the Empire, not break it up. Lanival is the one that said "Let there be five!" The fact that provincial leaders don't claim titles like "king" and "emperor" is also a symbolic nod to those days; absolute power is bad juju, even if they do basically wield it in their respective territories.
It's why my character is extremely derisive toward people who talk about bringing the Empire back. It's a downright militant and hostile stance to take if you know what you're talking about, historically speaking. Which is well and good and I like that sort of thing, but most of the White Rose people I confront about this tend to flounder and act like they have no idea what I'm talking about, so I don't know. C'est la vie?
On the smashing, you're going to have to be a lot more specific. Though typically I Thoughtcast people when I smash them for being OOC unless it's really egregious, so. I don't know who your character is so I can't really answer.
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
It's why my character is extremely derisive toward people who talk about bringing the Empire back. It's a downright militant and hostile stance to take if you know what you're talking about, historically speaking. Which is well and good and I like that sort of thing, but most of the White Rose people I confront about this tend to flounder and act like they have no idea what I'm talking about, so I don't know. C'est la vie?
On the smashing, you're going to have to be a lot more specific. Though typically I Thoughtcast people when I smash them for being OOC unless it's really egregious, so. I don't know who your character is so I can't really answer.
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
ICEOWLL
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 10:33 AM CDT
>>I did not say the Empire was about peace and love and such ...I said the order was as I recall about reuniting the empire through the education of the masses and aiding those in need, not about conquest.<<
Well, I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from, but since I've been in the Order I haven't read anything about resurrecting the Empire. The Empire was certainly full of faults, and by not choosing your words carefully the mission statement can easily be shifted from an Order who upholds and believes in the ideals which fueled the foundation of the Empire to an Order who is trying to revive a dead system which was ruled by the races. Any system ruled by the people is going to be imperfect, I think that goes without saying.
The idea of uniting the races under one banner as equals under one rule, each given and equal opportunity/amount of time to rule, is a noble thought. So let us look at the Order of the White Rose as a group of people who promotes the ideals which fueled the creation of the Seven Pointed Star, and not as a militiant group trying to resurrect an Empire soaked in blood.
As far as becoming a military, that's just silly. We have reorganized our numbers a bit to become a more cohesive defensive unit during times of need and invasions, but we have certainly not become a military and I am sorry that you see it that way.
But, I know you have had personal issues with me Tonzan and my outspoken nature, so I don't expect any of this to be taken seriously.
I should also note that I am not a council member and the views reflected in this post are those of a personal nature, and are not necessarily the mirrored views of the entire Order.
- Terra
______________________________________
"Bards..." Selinthesa suddenly starts upon seeing you. "...are the best profession in the lands. We have instruments, powerful voices, area ranging enchantes, AND if we choose to, we can fight."
Well, I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from, but since I've been in the Order I haven't read anything about resurrecting the Empire. The Empire was certainly full of faults, and by not choosing your words carefully the mission statement can easily be shifted from an Order who upholds and believes in the ideals which fueled the foundation of the Empire to an Order who is trying to revive a dead system which was ruled by the races. Any system ruled by the people is going to be imperfect, I think that goes without saying.
The idea of uniting the races under one banner as equals under one rule, each given and equal opportunity/amount of time to rule, is a noble thought. So let us look at the Order of the White Rose as a group of people who promotes the ideals which fueled the creation of the Seven Pointed Star, and not as a militiant group trying to resurrect an Empire soaked in blood.
As far as becoming a military, that's just silly. We have reorganized our numbers a bit to become a more cohesive defensive unit during times of need and invasions, but we have certainly not become a military and I am sorry that you see it that way.
But, I know you have had personal issues with me Tonzan and my outspoken nature, so I don't expect any of this to be taken seriously.
I should also note that I am not a council member and the views reflected in this post are those of a personal nature, and are not necessarily the mirrored views of the entire Order.
- Terra
______________________________________
"Bards..." Selinthesa suddenly starts upon seeing you. "...are the best profession in the lands. We have instruments, powerful voices, area ranging enchantes, AND if we choose to, we can fight."
HULDAHS-PAL
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 12:00 PM CDT
>Well, I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from, but since I've been in the Order I haven't read anything about resurrecting the Empire.
Here's the White Rose Flyer.
You get an Order of the White Rose flyer.
>read my fl
~~ Order of the White Rose ~~
Sanctioning Province: Zoluren
The Order of the White Rose strives to promote racial unity, reunification of the Empire of the Seven Pointed Star and education of the masses as well as aiding those adventurers in need of assistance.
The Order of the White Rose provides trauma teams for those times of need, holds teaching sessions to educate on racial unity and the Empire of the Seven Pointed Star, searches for lost relics of the Empire and coordinates social gatherings for members and non-members alike.
Sponsorship Required: Yes
Minimum Circle Requirement to Join: None
Guilds Welcome: All
Races Welcome: All
Speaker of the Order: Manze Losterik
Vice Speaker: Yavus Ger'avren
Treasurer:
Council Members:
Mariial , Halcier Arekher, Tolena Blasenr, Zakuro Beltshumeltz, Villya Airweaver, Ariya Wolgamott, Alexsei Krauser
IF that's not what reunification of the Empire stands for in this case, it probably should be re-worded because it certainly gives that impression, in my opinion. I think this may be where the sticking point is.
__
Huldah's on a writing kick.
http://tinyurl.com/5kmnso
Total Chapters: 2
Here's the White Rose Flyer.
You get an Order of the White Rose flyer.
>read my fl
~~ Order of the White Rose ~~
Sanctioning Province: Zoluren
The Order of the White Rose strives to promote racial unity, reunification of the Empire of the Seven Pointed Star and education of the masses as well as aiding those adventurers in need of assistance.
The Order of the White Rose provides trauma teams for those times of need, holds teaching sessions to educate on racial unity and the Empire of the Seven Pointed Star, searches for lost relics of the Empire and coordinates social gatherings for members and non-members alike.
Sponsorship Required: Yes
Minimum Circle Requirement to Join: None
Guilds Welcome: All
Races Welcome: All
Speaker of the Order: Manze Losterik
Vice Speaker: Yavus Ger'avren
Treasurer:
Council Members:
Mariial , Halcier Arekher, Tolena Blasenr, Zakuro Beltshumeltz, Villya Airweaver, Ariya Wolgamott, Alexsei Krauser
IF that's not what reunification of the Empire stands for in this case, it probably should be re-worded because it certainly gives that impression, in my opinion. I think this may be where the sticking point is.
__
Huldah's on a writing kick.
http://tinyurl.com/5kmnso
Total Chapters: 2
ICEOWLL
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 12:11 PM CDT
>>IF that's not what reunification of the Empire stands for in this case, it probably should be re-worded because it certainly gives that impression, in my opinion. I think this may be where the sticking point is.<<
I'm glad you brought this up, I have not actually seen one of the flyers. After some recent discussions amongst members and non-members, the Order has (and a Council member can correct me if I'm wrong) decided that re-wording some of the official documents to more appropriately reflect the actual mission of the Order, is needed.
That will most certainly need to be something that is addressed sooner rather than later, since it's one of the driving forces to promote the Order.
I believe the intention of the Order has always been to build upon the founding ideals that the Empire was started upon, but recently it seems this fatal flaw in the wording has caused some distress both among members and non-members alike.
Thanks for pointing out the flyer, I'll see what I can do about getting this changed.
- Terra
______________________________________
"Bards..." Selinthesa suddenly starts upon seeing you. "...are the best profession in the lands. We have instruments, powerful voices, area ranging enchantes, AND if we choose to, we can fight."
I'm glad you brought this up, I have not actually seen one of the flyers. After some recent discussions amongst members and non-members, the Order has (and a Council member can correct me if I'm wrong) decided that re-wording some of the official documents to more appropriately reflect the actual mission of the Order, is needed.
That will most certainly need to be something that is addressed sooner rather than later, since it's one of the driving forces to promote the Order.
I believe the intention of the Order has always been to build upon the founding ideals that the Empire was started upon, but recently it seems this fatal flaw in the wording has caused some distress both among members and non-members alike.
Thanks for pointing out the flyer, I'll see what I can do about getting this changed.
- Terra
______________________________________
"Bards..." Selinthesa suddenly starts upon seeing you. "...are the best profession in the lands. We have instruments, powerful voices, area ranging enchantes, AND if we choose to, we can fight."
HULDAHS-PAL
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 12:25 PM CDT
No problem. It's nice to know that it's just worded badly, now.
__
Huldah's on a writing kick.
http://tinyurl.com/5kmnso
Total Chapters: 2
__
Huldah's on a writing kick.
http://tinyurl.com/5kmnso
Total Chapters: 2
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 04:11 PM CDT
That's interesting. A few of the members I've butted heads with had made a point of emphasizing the Empire bit. There was at least one gweth conversation to this effect.
If it's getting reworded, all the better. Quite frankly, I think the Empire bit flew in the face of Ariawen's decree that an Order must be allied with and loyal to a single government. So it's good it's getting reworded.
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
If it's getting reworded, all the better. Quite frankly, I think the Empire bit flew in the face of Ariawen's decree that an Order must be allied with and loyal to a single government. So it's good it's getting reworded.
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
WDAMORE
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 04:31 PM CDT
Yes, the Charter and Bylaws were originally written quite a few years ago. Since that is what Ariawen had on file when the Orders HQ building was constructed, that is what was used to make the flyers, the books and the plaque in the recruiting office. Actually there has been an edit a few months ago but that is superseded by recent events that requires a more extensive edit of said documents. All this takes time. I am sorry, these things require discussion, debate, writing, debate, editting, debate, any new editting, and finally voting on by the members. It's a tedious process true, but it must be done properly.
The Order of the White Rose believes in striving to unite Elanthia in a sense of brotherhood, of working together. We do not seek to "conquer all" as some imply. We are teachers; healers; defenders of others, even at the cost of our lives or "popularity." Yes, the Charter is very wordy and repetitive.. and definately unclear on certain points such that those who have ulterior motives can twist said wording around to suit themselves and portray the Order in a negative light. But that is what I inherited when I took over the Speakership. C'est la vie. But Terra is correct as to the intent of the Order.
Caelumia, I rarely act "out of character" save for certain places (like my home), or instances where I am helping someone (like mentoring or lecturing at an Order event) or in some instances such as the night at the Stones, was a typo on my part due to being overtired, it was suppose to have been whisper to Renlak, not announced aloud.. Again, C'est la vie, when you achieve perfection yourself, then you can criticize. As far as being "misinformed," that is my character, not the person behind him. Manze has grown up with a certain view point on life, much as you have, if I am wrong in playing Manze the way I choose, then you are equally wrong for playing Caelumia the way you choose. And do not question my honesty, I am honest to a fault, to the point of telling the truth regardless of the consequences. But then again, you don't bother to know me or even try to get to know me, so who are you to judge my honesty since I've rarely exchanged ANY words with you whatsoever.
Tonzan, you are wrong. You tried to install your own version of Order proceedings. You tried to have your friend work on a Council-only document when he was not on the Council. I told you if you wanted aid to seek Alexsei, he is on the Council and is your assistant. You are horribly wrong for leaving him out of that. And for the record, Terra never helped me with writing anything yet. It was Alex that aided me and only him. The proofreading was done by a half dozen or ten people to check for errors, see if there was any possibility of misunderstandings. That was done by some Council members, some Order members, some Recruits and some who didn't even belong to the Order to collect as many different points of view as possible before presentation. Yet you criticize me for proofreading. PROOFREADING, which is only thing that Terra did. You are the one who is egotistical, who thinks you are above the rest of the Council, and you got angry because I wouldn't let you have your way. Grow up. Follow proper proceedings. If I wanted to do as you so claim I do, it would have already been done long before you joined the Order. As far as running it into the ground as you say? Let's see there's 33 members now, when I took over the Speakership last December, there was 3 active members.. Myself, Tolena, and Semgrey.. Enough said.
Emerald Knight Manze Losterik, Speaker of the Order of the White Rose
The Order of the White Rose believes in striving to unite Elanthia in a sense of brotherhood, of working together. We do not seek to "conquer all" as some imply. We are teachers; healers; defenders of others, even at the cost of our lives or "popularity." Yes, the Charter is very wordy and repetitive.. and definately unclear on certain points such that those who have ulterior motives can twist said wording around to suit themselves and portray the Order in a negative light. But that is what I inherited when I took over the Speakership. C'est la vie. But Terra is correct as to the intent of the Order.
Caelumia, I rarely act "out of character" save for certain places (like my home), or instances where I am helping someone (like mentoring or lecturing at an Order event) or in some instances such as the night at the Stones, was a typo on my part due to being overtired, it was suppose to have been whisper to Renlak, not announced aloud.. Again, C'est la vie, when you achieve perfection yourself, then you can criticize. As far as being "misinformed," that is my character, not the person behind him. Manze has grown up with a certain view point on life, much as you have, if I am wrong in playing Manze the way I choose, then you are equally wrong for playing Caelumia the way you choose. And do not question my honesty, I am honest to a fault, to the point of telling the truth regardless of the consequences. But then again, you don't bother to know me or even try to get to know me, so who are you to judge my honesty since I've rarely exchanged ANY words with you whatsoever.
Tonzan, you are wrong. You tried to install your own version of Order proceedings. You tried to have your friend work on a Council-only document when he was not on the Council. I told you if you wanted aid to seek Alexsei, he is on the Council and is your assistant. You are horribly wrong for leaving him out of that. And for the record, Terra never helped me with writing anything yet. It was Alex that aided me and only him. The proofreading was done by a half dozen or ten people to check for errors, see if there was any possibility of misunderstandings. That was done by some Council members, some Order members, some Recruits and some who didn't even belong to the Order to collect as many different points of view as possible before presentation. Yet you criticize me for proofreading. PROOFREADING, which is only thing that Terra did. You are the one who is egotistical, who thinks you are above the rest of the Council, and you got angry because I wouldn't let you have your way. Grow up. Follow proper proceedings. If I wanted to do as you so claim I do, it would have already been done long before you joined the Order. As far as running it into the ground as you say? Let's see there's 33 members now, when I took over the Speakership last December, there was 3 active members.. Myself, Tolena, and Semgrey.. Enough said.
Emerald Knight Manze Losterik, Speaker of the Order of the White Rose
HEADHUNTER71
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 05:01 PM CDT
| I wanted to at least say goodbye on the scrolls but the speaker removed me already, so here is my goodbye along with a why. |
| I will miss you all and I really didn't want to leave the order, but I cannot be a butt kisser to the speaker and that is what he wants. He says things then denies them. If he doesn't have a good answer he falls back on the by-laws or says it was implied. He is trying to turn an order whose primary function is to reunite the empire through peace and teaching into a militia to take over the realms in the name of the empire. I'm sure if he reads this he will say I am a liar , but you all know me and I hope at least some of you will believe me. I have always wanted to be in this order, but cannot follow a speaker who's is running it into the ground. Feel free to contact me. I will miss you all. I hope I will see most of you around the realms. |
RP nuance aside, don't you think it would have been a lot classier to talk behind the speakers back rather than be so straight-forward and direct about your gripe?
:oP Ragran
ICEOWLL
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 05:01 PM CDT
With all due respect, let's try not to turn this into a conflicts folder.
- Things are getting reworded to clarify some mistakes that were made in the vague descriptions of the order in the past.
- The winds of change have swept some people from our midst, which is unfortunate but apparently necessary.
- Not everyone gets along. Let's try and keep this folder to Order business. Some very good points were brought up by people who were not members of the Order and I believe we have helped to clear up some valid misconceptions of us.
- Terra
______________________________________
"Bards..." Selinthesa suddenly starts upon seeing you. "...are the best profession in the lands. We have instruments, powerful voices, area ranging enchantes, AND if we choose to, we can fight."
- Things are getting reworded to clarify some mistakes that were made in the vague descriptions of the order in the past.
- The winds of change have swept some people from our midst, which is unfortunate but apparently necessary.
- Not everyone gets along. Let's try and keep this folder to Order business. Some very good points were brought up by people who were not members of the Order and I believe we have helped to clear up some valid misconceptions of us.
- Terra
______________________________________
"Bards..." Selinthesa suddenly starts upon seeing you. "...are the best profession in the lands. We have instruments, powerful voices, area ranging enchantes, AND if we choose to, we can fight."
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 05:14 PM CDT
Thank you for that much, Terra. It's good to know my observations didn't fall on deaf ears.
>> Caelumia, I rarely act "out of character"
I've seen you talking about consent and reporting and GMs out loud umm...several times. Usually in front of a lot of other people and certainly not in a home. I think I've even asked you nicely to stop OOCly a few times.
I know you've encouraged people to report for things like PvP, even if you had nothing to do with the conflict.
Is it true you reported a GMPC for unconsented PvP during the storm bull invasion? Someone who was there when you assisted passed it along so I'm just curious.
>> As far as being "misinformed," that is my character, not the person behind him.
Duly noted. I vaguely recall an OOC whispered conversation about whether the Dragon Priests had taken Leth Deriel but I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that little dialogue was meant to be an IC argument.
Playing opinionated, biased, and habitually incorrect characters is well and good but slightly less good when the Order you're trying to lead professes to be about teaching and equality. You must expect that at least ICly there will be a great deal of criticism - people will think your character is a bad leader.
OOCly I have seen you talking about things like consent and "gods" or threatening to report people if they attack you and these are not the signs of a good roleplayer. They are not even the signs of someone that so much as grasps how to remain in-character.
But you know, playing is a learning experience. I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, we can learn how to be better at what we do all the time. I will believe you can become a better roleplayer and begin handling things ICly, and not drag in references to consent and "gods" and "pidgeons" and whatnot. Everyone deserves second chances after all. And Orders are a good thing for players and the community, and if you're working toward a positive end it'll rub off.
Though speaking of positive ends and bettering the roleplaying environment, may I suggest taking steps toward that by encourage your council members to not say things like "brb restarting my computer" in front of people?
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
>> Caelumia, I rarely act "out of character"
I've seen you talking about consent and reporting and GMs out loud umm...several times. Usually in front of a lot of other people and certainly not in a home. I think I've even asked you nicely to stop OOCly a few times.
I know you've encouraged people to report for things like PvP, even if you had nothing to do with the conflict.
Is it true you reported a GMPC for unconsented PvP during the storm bull invasion? Someone who was there when you assisted passed it along so I'm just curious.
>> As far as being "misinformed," that is my character, not the person behind him.
Duly noted. I vaguely recall an OOC whispered conversation about whether the Dragon Priests had taken Leth Deriel but I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that little dialogue was meant to be an IC argument.
Playing opinionated, biased, and habitually incorrect characters is well and good but slightly less good when the Order you're trying to lead professes to be about teaching and equality. You must expect that at least ICly there will be a great deal of criticism - people will think your character is a bad leader.
OOCly I have seen you talking about things like consent and "gods" or threatening to report people if they attack you and these are not the signs of a good roleplayer. They are not even the signs of someone that so much as grasps how to remain in-character.
But you know, playing is a learning experience. I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, we can learn how to be better at what we do all the time. I will believe you can become a better roleplayer and begin handling things ICly, and not drag in references to consent and "gods" and "pidgeons" and whatnot. Everyone deserves second chances after all. And Orders are a good thing for players and the community, and if you're working toward a positive end it'll rub off.
Though speaking of positive ends and bettering the roleplaying environment, may I suggest taking steps toward that by encourage your council members to not say things like "brb restarting my computer" in front of people?
Rev. Reene
Mozzik says to Siltoth, "Ealuik to attend the wedding. Preferably dressed in a bow. And nothing else."
>
You say to Mozzik, "There's a word for what kind of mental defect you have and it's probably very long and hard to pronounce."
KAZUKI
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 05:48 PM CDT
I am not an old Council Member in the White Rose, but I do have a few observations to throw here, if that is all right.
First, I do corroborate Terra's observations about the code and the ambiguity that has surfaced because of it. It has been a point that has been debated both by outsiders and our own members thoroughly, and as others have said, it is generally accepted now that this point needs clarifying. As Manze said, we are currently working hard at restructuring the group, and we do strive to streamline these ambiguities as best we can. The wise scholar is the one who is not afraid to admit when he is wrong, since bias only leads people to cling to ideas because of pride rather than genuine desire for truth, after all.
As for the OOC behaviors of some of our members, well... Like I said, I am not an old Council Member, so I am not necessarily aware of who or what this might refer to, but that is also something we are cracking down on, among other inappropriate behaviors. Part of our restructuring is to better deal with that sort of thing, as we are trying to move past the impressions some might have given in the past and better match the actions of our membership with the ideals we are trying to support.
Well, that was wordy as usual, but I suppose what I am trying to say is that we are not really a bone-headed or unreasonable group, and we do wish to attain a higher degree of excellence, in scholarly pursuits and otherwise. I find it regrettable that our Order has slipped and cast an unfavorable image to some people, but I also believe that people can learn from those mistakes, and that is what our current roster is trying to do.
People unwilling are another story altogether, but I think we can all agree that those are often lost causes and usually not worth arguing with to begin with.
- Alexsei Krauser, Black Wing of Eylhaar.
First, I do corroborate Terra's observations about the code and the ambiguity that has surfaced because of it. It has been a point that has been debated both by outsiders and our own members thoroughly, and as others have said, it is generally accepted now that this point needs clarifying. As Manze said, we are currently working hard at restructuring the group, and we do strive to streamline these ambiguities as best we can. The wise scholar is the one who is not afraid to admit when he is wrong, since bias only leads people to cling to ideas because of pride rather than genuine desire for truth, after all.
As for the OOC behaviors of some of our members, well... Like I said, I am not an old Council Member, so I am not necessarily aware of who or what this might refer to, but that is also something we are cracking down on, among other inappropriate behaviors. Part of our restructuring is to better deal with that sort of thing, as we are trying to move past the impressions some might have given in the past and better match the actions of our membership with the ideals we are trying to support.
Well, that was wordy as usual, but I suppose what I am trying to say is that we are not really a bone-headed or unreasonable group, and we do wish to attain a higher degree of excellence, in scholarly pursuits and otherwise. I find it regrettable that our Order has slipped and cast an unfavorable image to some people, but I also believe that people can learn from those mistakes, and that is what our current roster is trying to do.
People unwilling are another story altogether, but I think we can all agree that those are often lost causes and usually not worth arguing with to begin with.
- Alexsei Krauser, Black Wing of Eylhaar.
ZANINI
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/20/2008 09:57 PM CDT
Well let me clear a few things up as I see it.
firstly Manze just lied to the entire forum when he says he is truthful to a fault as one of the reasons I left was he lied right to the face of another member of the order while I was standing there.
secondly Terra according to Manze you are a probational council member or at least that was his excuse for him letting you work on a supposed council member only document.
thirdly I was using Alexsei to help me work on the document whether you (Manze) want to believe so or not. And as the bylaws state in my job description - C) Medical Director and Assistant:
The Medical Director and Assistant will be responsible for planning and scheduling Order Trauma Team events. The Director and/or Assistant will be responsible for formulating a comprehensive plan for Trauma Team operation during times of crisis and distributing the plan to Order members. The Director and/or Assistant will form Trauma Teams and appoint Team leaders to each team during times of crisis.
No where in there does it say I cannot have any help I choose or that this is a council only document as a matter of fact it says I am to distribute the document to the membership, not to the council for a vote.
OK enough of the numbers - I don't know when during our so called impromptu meetings that different ideas were discussed by everyone there including Terra and Talliska became proofreading a document not yet written.
You say I tried to install my own proceedings by having a friend assist me with a so called council only document. I was never told it was a council only document, the by-laws as you tried to quote are vague at best and implied as your favorite word seems to be. Then you have as you say and I quote " The proofreading was done by a half dozen or ten people to check for errors, see if there was any possibility of misunderstandings. That was done by some Council members, some Order members, some Recruits and some who didn't even belong to the Order to collect as many different points of view as possible before presentation." So it's OK for even none members to proofread a council only document but a member cannot assist with working on it. and as for your council only document the by-laws state - 1) Definition of Authority:
The Order will be governed by a Council consisting of the Speaker, Vice Speaker, Treasurer, and 10 Councillors. The Council will have the authority to amend the Charter and By-Laws with a simple majority vote.
no were does it say that those document have to be written by the council or are council only documents. Oh course you will say it is "Implied" which is dictator lingo for shut up I have no answer.
As for membership growth I had a strong hand in the number of new members in the order possibly more than you yourself and if you want to raise your high horse the only reason you got to take over the order was you were the only person to show up to a meeting of the so called three of you, not because the GM felt you were the right person for the job. You cannot stand to be wrong and will say and do whatever it takes to try and prove yourself right even if you have to use your now famous "it was Implied" answer. so who needs to grow up - I think it is you.
now as for your assigning of council-ship on who you please you have broken the order by-laws you so love to quote - 2) Nomination of Officers, Councillors, and Specialists:
The Council will have the authority and responsibility of nominating the Officers, Councillors and Specialists of the Order. Nominations for Officers and Councillors will be voted on by the Order as a whole. Nominations for Specialists will be voted on by the Council.
Also even after a member you accused of spying for who knows who and for who knows why apologized for any misunderstandings, you tried to set him up by creating a false rumor hoping to catch him in the act. which of course never happened since he was not a spy.
You are slowly eliminating anyone you see as a threat to your power because they don't see things the exact way you do and filled those slots with people who are willing to kiss your proverbial butt. You say oh such and such and I argue all the time, but know one other than you and that person have seen these arguments, they always appear to be tightly aligned with you when discussions come about and anyone who questions you in any way is accused of confrontation of the speaker.
Terra, I would have discussed this order business on the order website but Manze completely deleted me from them.
firstly Manze just lied to the entire forum when he says he is truthful to a fault as one of the reasons I left was he lied right to the face of another member of the order while I was standing there.
secondly Terra according to Manze you are a probational council member or at least that was his excuse for him letting you work on a supposed council member only document.
thirdly I was using Alexsei to help me work on the document whether you (Manze) want to believe so or not. And as the bylaws state in my job description - C) Medical Director and Assistant:
The Medical Director and Assistant will be responsible for planning and scheduling Order Trauma Team events. The Director and/or Assistant will be responsible for formulating a comprehensive plan for Trauma Team operation during times of crisis and distributing the plan to Order members. The Director and/or Assistant will form Trauma Teams and appoint Team leaders to each team during times of crisis.
No where in there does it say I cannot have any help I choose or that this is a council only document as a matter of fact it says I am to distribute the document to the membership, not to the council for a vote.
OK enough of the numbers - I don't know when during our so called impromptu meetings that different ideas were discussed by everyone there including Terra and Talliska became proofreading a document not yet written.
You say I tried to install my own proceedings by having a friend assist me with a so called council only document. I was never told it was a council only document, the by-laws as you tried to quote are vague at best and implied as your favorite word seems to be. Then you have as you say and I quote " The proofreading was done by a half dozen or ten people to check for errors, see if there was any possibility of misunderstandings. That was done by some Council members, some Order members, some Recruits and some who didn't even belong to the Order to collect as many different points of view as possible before presentation." So it's OK for even none members to proofread a council only document but a member cannot assist with working on it. and as for your council only document the by-laws state - 1) Definition of Authority:
The Order will be governed by a Council consisting of the Speaker, Vice Speaker, Treasurer, and 10 Councillors. The Council will have the authority to amend the Charter and By-Laws with a simple majority vote.
no were does it say that those document have to be written by the council or are council only documents. Oh course you will say it is "Implied" which is dictator lingo for shut up I have no answer.
As for membership growth I had a strong hand in the number of new members in the order possibly more than you yourself and if you want to raise your high horse the only reason you got to take over the order was you were the only person to show up to a meeting of the so called three of you, not because the GM felt you were the right person for the job. You cannot stand to be wrong and will say and do whatever it takes to try and prove yourself right even if you have to use your now famous "it was Implied" answer. so who needs to grow up - I think it is you.
now as for your assigning of council-ship on who you please you have broken the order by-laws you so love to quote - 2) Nomination of Officers, Councillors, and Specialists:
The Council will have the authority and responsibility of nominating the Officers, Councillors and Specialists of the Order. Nominations for Officers and Councillors will be voted on by the Order as a whole. Nominations for Specialists will be voted on by the Council.
Also even after a member you accused of spying for who knows who and for who knows why apologized for any misunderstandings, you tried to set him up by creating a false rumor hoping to catch him in the act. which of course never happened since he was not a spy.
You are slowly eliminating anyone you see as a threat to your power because they don't see things the exact way you do and filled those slots with people who are willing to kiss your proverbial butt. You say oh such and such and I argue all the time, but know one other than you and that person have seen these arguments, they always appear to be tightly aligned with you when discussions come about and anyone who questions you in any way is accused of confrontation of the speaker.
Terra, I would have discussed this order business on the order website but Manze completely deleted me from them.
HEADHUNTER71
Re: So-long ....You can thank your speaker
08/22/2008 04:37 PM CDT
...thunderdome....thunderdome...thunderdome...
...two white rose enter, one white rose leaves....
:oP Ragran
...two white rose enter, one white rose leaves....
:oP Ragran
