BFIKE3
Spars
05/05/2016 09:59 PM CDT
I don't know who came up with this "honor system" of saying what you hunt and letting the people running the spars make brackets. Like anyone else i love a challenge. But what takes the fun out of these events is when you're honest about what you hunt and you end up fighting people you can't even touch with any kind of attack. There has to be a better way to determine what's a fair fight and what's not. If I can't hit someone there is no way in hell they are in the same class as me. being nothing but a target dummy for people twice my circle gets old fast.
RCHIGHT
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 11:08 AM CDT
So what do you suggest. Here are the things I know have been tried without much success.
1.) Highest Mastery and Defending skill. Well, if someone has 900 in Masteries, 700 in Defending but 600 in weapons they will have the same issue you are complaining about. This doesn't take into account TM.
2.) Highest weapon and highest armor. See #1 with whatever flavor you want to add to it.
3.) Highest weapon or TM and highest defense.
4.) What critter a person hunts.
It's tough to match people up mainly because there isn't a large number of participants but there is a wide range of skills. If you have specific criteria you won't participate under then let the master of ceremonies know. For example I tell him/her I'm willing to fight anyone 30 circles higher than me. You could just tell him/her if they aren't within 100 ranks of my offense/defense I don't want to spar.
I also suggest that you take your beatings with enthusiasm. When I get demolished by someone I try to learn what they did and then figure out how to counter it. For example I got demolished by RIMEFANG. Now if I see it on an opponent I know I gotta go pole or ranged weapon. Did I lose. You betcha I did. But I also learned something I can take to the next fight.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
1.) Highest Mastery and Defending skill. Well, if someone has 900 in Masteries, 700 in Defending but 600 in weapons they will have the same issue you are complaining about. This doesn't take into account TM.
2.) Highest weapon and highest armor. See #1 with whatever flavor you want to add to it.
3.) Highest weapon or TM and highest defense.
4.) What critter a person hunts.
It's tough to match people up mainly because there isn't a large number of participants but there is a wide range of skills. If you have specific criteria you won't participate under then let the master of ceremonies know. For example I tell him/her I'm willing to fight anyone 30 circles higher than me. You could just tell him/her if they aren't within 100 ranks of my offense/defense I don't want to spar.
I also suggest that you take your beatings with enthusiasm. When I get demolished by someone I try to learn what they did and then figure out how to counter it. For example I got demolished by RIMEFANG. Now if I see it on an opponent I know I gotta go pole or ranged weapon. Did I lose. You betcha I did. But I also learned something I can take to the next fight.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
IVORYTOWERNECRO
RCHIGHT
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 11:57 AM CDT
>Then lie.
Then there is this solution for the ethically challenged. Heh.
If/When I run the Wyvern Trials I thinking of requiring TELLEXP and TELLSTAT to place people in brackets to get around this at least superficially.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Then there is this solution for the ethically challenged. Heh.
If/When I run the Wyvern Trials I thinking of requiring TELLEXP and TELLSTAT to place people in brackets to get around this at least superficially.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 12:13 PM CDT
IMO, the issue with critter levels is that even if everyone is being honest and not trying to deceive anyone, everyone might have a different reason why they're fighting a particular mob.
I could, for example, answer zombie stompers or mountain giants in full honesty, but those are also different difficulty levels.
IMO, highest non-mastery offense/defense is probably the "least bad" option, but that's just me and I have no real skin in the game. I don't think mastery should be factored in just like I don't think buffs/SoI (not that I know which boosts combats more) should be factored in.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I could, for example, answer zombie stompers or mountain giants in full honesty, but those are also different difficulty levels.
IMO, highest non-mastery offense/defense is probably the "least bad" option, but that's just me and I have no real skin in the game. I don't think mastery should be factored in just like I don't think buffs/SoI (not that I know which boosts combats more) should be factored in.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DERIUM
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 12:23 PM CDT
> IMO, the issue with critter levels is that even if everyone is being honest and not trying to deceive anyone, everyone might have a different reason why they're fighting a particular mob.
There's also a huge disparity for those just joining a critter latter, and those just about to leave it or milking the soft cap for whatever reason. That's not even touching the stat differences. A bard hunting adan'f are going to have dramatically different stats than a cleric which is going to have different stats than a barbarian or paladin doing the same. Maybe that imbalance is made up for elsewhere, but it's something to consider, especially for the circle chasers.
JULIAN
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 01:52 PM CDT
>>I don't know who came up with this "honor system" of saying what you hunt and letting the people running the spars make brackets. Like anyone else i love a challenge. But what takes the fun out of these events is when you're honest about what you hunt and you end up fighting people you can't even touch with any kind of attack. There has to be a better way to determine what's a fair fight and what's not. If I can't hit someone there is no way in hell they are in the same class as me. being nothing but a target dummy for people twice my circle gets old fast.<<
I think there is not one person who has ever run a spar event who hasn't wished for a better way to bracket. Rhadyn, Tev, and Derium pretty well covered why it's so difficult. If the organizers know the folks involved they can exercise some judgement, but it's really hard to construct a set of criteria for your brackets that both allows people to have matches and never mismatches people. If you have ideas for how to do it better we'd all be grateful.
Mazrian
I think there is not one person who has ever run a spar event who hasn't wished for a better way to bracket. Rhadyn, Tev, and Derium pretty well covered why it's so difficult. If the organizers know the folks involved they can exercise some judgement, but it's really hard to construct a set of criteria for your brackets that both allows people to have matches and never mismatches people. If you have ideas for how to do it better we'd all be grateful.
Mazrian
NINEVAH1
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 02:07 PM CDT
>>3.) Highest weapon or TM and highest defense.
This has been the best way I've experienced so far, but as has already been said there is such a wide range of skills and not a lot of people so the people in charge do that best that they can. It's rare to have a completely fair fight set-up at a sparring event, unless you bring your own match that you already know is fair.
>>I also suggest that you take your beatings with enthusiasm.
I suggest this, too. Rhadyn got matched up against me awhile back and he knew I out-ranked him by 3-400 ranks, but he took the beating, got up, and shook my hand. I've taken some serious beatings myself but I keep coming back, and I've even managed to win against some of the people who I get beat by regularly. If you get a bad matchup it doesn't mean someone is lying, there could just be a difference in how you train that gives the other person the advantage, or the person running it did the best they could trying to get people as close together as they could.
This has been the best way I've experienced so far, but as has already been said there is such a wide range of skills and not a lot of people so the people in charge do that best that they can. It's rare to have a completely fair fight set-up at a sparring event, unless you bring your own match that you already know is fair.
>>I also suggest that you take your beatings with enthusiasm.
I suggest this, too. Rhadyn got matched up against me awhile back and he knew I out-ranked him by 3-400 ranks, but he took the beating, got up, and shook my hand. I've taken some serious beatings myself but I keep coming back, and I've even managed to win against some of the people who I get beat by regularly. If you get a bad matchup it doesn't mean someone is lying, there could just be a difference in how you train that gives the other person the advantage, or the person running it did the best they could trying to get people as close together as they could.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 02:13 PM CDT
>>If the organizers know the folks involved they can exercise some judgement, but it's really hard to construct a set of criteria for your brackets that both allows people to have matches and never mismatches people. If you have ideas for how to do it better we'd all be grateful.
I think it's also worth acknowledging that GMs sometimes have to tweak the way flex-critters flex because it's such a tricky dance sometimes. So if an automated PvE system has trouble properly matching a player in terms of skill/difficulty, having two players "match" within a specific bracket is always going to be a challenge.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I think it's also worth acknowledging that GMs sometimes have to tweak the way flex-critters flex because it's such a tricky dance sometimes. So if an automated PvE system has trouble properly matching a player in terms of skill/difficulty, having two players "match" within a specific bracket is always going to be a challenge.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
THAYET
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 02:17 PM CDT
I've been on both sides of this -- fighting someone that can stomp me, and fighting someone that I clearly outmatched who had no chance against me. The majority of the time when either of these scenarios happen the organizer was usually aware of some disparity and let us both know that it was just the closest match we had. If it's obvious there's a mismatch I usually switch to a lower weapon too, and I know other people will kind of pull punches too just to make it more interesting.
FWIW in one case of a severe mismatch where I won, at least one of them had a Rocky montage and can now stomp my face with laughable ease. Damn you, Ephic!
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
FWIW in one case of a severe mismatch where I won, at least one of them had a Rocky montage and can now stomp my face with laughable ease. Damn you, Ephic!
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
SLEE1
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 02:20 PM CDT
As someone who runs spars quite often I can say that sometimes its a crap shoot trying to put two people together. I use the average of highest armor and weapon/tm method to get people relatively close together then just wing it from personal observations of fights. Is it always fair to both sides? Of course not. People play/pvp/train differently so its hard to come up with the perfect solution every time. Even when I do put together a fight that's fairly equal you then have people complaining that a fight is taking over 10 minutes to conclude. Can't please everyone. However I will say that if you want people more your size to fight then I urge you to make friends with people and invite them to come to spars. Lots of times its the same people every week so new blood is always welcomed. Wyvern Trials and Theren Guard run a weekly spar and the Crystal Vanguard run one every other week. If you can't find someone at one, try a different one with different people.
Also, the people that host these events are normal players, we take time out to do this so others can have a good time. We're fallible, but do our best to make sure things run smoothly. If you have a problem with one of your fights or thought it was handled unfairly feel free to talk to us.
SLEE1
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 02:24 PM CDT
>>FWIW in one case of a severe mismatch where I won, at least one of them had a Rocky montage and can now stomp my face with laughable ease. Damn you, Ephic!
I must break you.
I must break you.
THAYET
Re: Spars
05/06/2016 02:25 PM CDT
Clerics cheat. :<
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
NINEVAH1
BFIKE3
Re: Spars
05/09/2016 11:30 PM CDT
I understand how the system works. May I suggest a little of the old ways mixed in with the new. Factor in circle also. As we all know circles = TDP's and they are a big factor in PVP. I understand the system isn't perfect when trying to form your brackets. But ranks alone doesn't even the field. If a level 50 is fighting a level 80 that's a big difference in the stat vs stat contest. Which is what the combat systems is mainly based on. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Basing contest on circle alone was a bad system. I believe "sandbaggers" was the term used with mismatches. Then it switched to ranks. Which isn't perfect either. I think a balance of the two would be a better way to even the field. Keeping your circle to yourself is a popular thing, I'm aware. So exact circle doesn't need to be told. Just keep it in the "I can't thump my opponent" range. Maybe have a test before the actual fight. Just a suggestion. Make every fight enjoyable for both contestants. Who knows. Maybe it'll draw a bigger crowd when you know going in that you no matter who you fight you have a chance.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Spars
05/10/2016 12:09 AM CDT
>>As we all know circles = TDP's and they are a big factor in PVP.
In all honesty, I'd link circles to access to certain abilities more than TDPs. I feel like, in the long run, TDPs come more from skills than circles. IMO, it's only in the lower range where circle TDPs really have value.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
In all honesty, I'd link circles to access to certain abilities more than TDPs. I feel like, in the long run, TDPs come more from skills than circles. IMO, it's only in the lower range where circle TDPs really have value.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Spars
05/10/2016 11:52 AM CDT
>>>> I use the average of highest armor and weapon/tm method to get people relatively close together then just wing it from personal observations of fights.
I openly admit I have little PvP experience, but a major problem with this system is that it grossly favours armour/weapon terts (they will have much higher magic and survival skills compared to combat skills and will be higher circle, in general).
I openly admit I have little PvP experience, but a major problem with this system is that it grossly favours armour/weapon terts (they will have much higher magic and survival skills compared to combat skills and will be higher circle, in general).
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Spars
05/10/2016 12:04 PM CDT
>>I openly admit I have little PvP experience, but a major problem with this system is that it grossly favours armour/weapon terts (they will have much higher magic and survival skills compared to combat skills and will be higher circle, in general).
I admittedly don't participate in Wyvern events, but I'm pretty sure that TM and Evasion count as combat skills, right? Even in the quote you provided, it highlights TM as a skill to use as a checkpoint.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I admittedly don't participate in Wyvern events, but I'm pretty sure that TM and Evasion count as combat skills, right? Even in the quote you provided, it highlights TM as a skill to use as a checkpoint.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
BFIKE3
Re: Spars
05/10/2016 07:07 PM CDT
RCHIGHT made a good suggestion on one of his post. TELLEXP and TELLSTAT would help even the field. I know any system will not be perfect and the players running these events are doing their best to keep things fair and balanced. Hopefully someone that runs these will try a few of these suggestions and add his/her own input and find the best way with what they have to work with. All I'm saying is that if you can't hit someone with ANYTHING you have that match shouldn't be made. No matter what you learn from what they do if you can't touch them no matter how you adjust to fight that person it's moot. You have to be able to land a blow to have a chance. I have no problem with losing. Sometimes a loss is better than a win because it WILL make you think of new ways to fight. That IMO is a good thing. If I just landed one blow I'd be happy with that loss. It's just the fights that I'm nothing more than a sacrificial lamb to someone twice my size that takes any form of enjoyment out of it. with that said i'd like to thank all of you for your suggestions and input. I'm sure with all that to work with someone that runs these can come up with a better system.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Spars
05/10/2016 07:16 PM CDT
>>It's just the fights that I'm nothing more than a sacrificial lamb to someone twice my size that takes any form of enjoyment out of it.
That said, I'm wondering what people would find worse: not having anyone to match up with, or losing because their closest match isn't that close.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
That said, I'm wondering what people would find worse: not having anyone to match up with, or losing because their closest match isn't that close.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: Spars
05/10/2016 08:18 PM CDT
I'd rather know there's no real match and fight anyway. Dragonrealms being what it is, finding "matched" opponents isn't a reasonable expectation without a large number of players participating.
What does Assassin use? Is that any good?
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
What does Assassin use? Is that any good?
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
BADGOPHER
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Spars
05/11/2016 09:01 AM CDT
>>>> I admittedly don't participate in Wyvern events, but I'm pretty sure that TM and Evasion count as combat skills, right? Even in the quote you provided, it highlights TM as a skill to use as a checkpoint.
Bah, for some reason when I read defences I was thinking armour. You are right. Regarding TM, I have noticed that TM still tends to lag far behind other magics on my MM simply because weapons and defences prevent him from moving up a tier currently. This trend is less pronounced on my cleric and necro, but they spend a much greater proportion of their time in combat (and yet one still sees it). The MM's stats are even so high that debilitation learning stopped even though it is under the hardcap on learning (I think). Aside from my inexperience I have a feeling that a Barb that hunts what I do probably won't do well because of the stat contests, which was my point.
Bah, for some reason when I read defences I was thinking armour. You are right. Regarding TM, I have noticed that TM still tends to lag far behind other magics on my MM simply because weapons and defences prevent him from moving up a tier currently. This trend is less pronounced on my cleric and necro, but they spend a much greater proportion of their time in combat (and yet one still sees it). The MM's stats are even so high that debilitation learning stopped even though it is under the hardcap on learning (I think). Aside from my inexperience I have a feeling that a Barb that hunts what I do probably won't do well because of the stat contests, which was my point.
RCHIGHT
Re: Spars
05/11/2016 07:34 PM CDT
So I ran the Wyvern Trials for the first time this past Monday. Before reading further, what I write is in no way saying that others do or do not do things the same way I ran the event. Most likely it is the same in many instances.
Here's how I asked for data to use:
1.) Asked for Highest weapon/TM skill to be used in combat.
2.) Asked for armor skill of armor being worn in combat.
I wanted TELLEXP of those skills and some people complied. Others just told me their skills. One just told me what they hunted and I got the data from Elanthipedia using a mid range.
Now for matching combatants:
1.) Within 100 ranks of either weapon/TM or armor, match 'em up!
2.) More than 100 but less than 150 let the lower combatant know there was a slight mismatch (not revealing any numbers) and were they willing to fight. If yes, match 'em up!
3.) People chose their opponent, match 'em up!
4.) People didn't tell me their ranks (critter they fight), find anyone in the range and, match 'em up!
This meant that two people didn't have a match and so didn't get a fight. They were both cool with that. I, personally, am not going to match someone up based on skills that I know is gonna get demolished unless they say "okay".
Also, the TELLSTAT was a no go. I don't think that's going to happen but if I see over the course of time some massive slaughtering like the OP mentioned I'd ask them to help me pair them up better and get whatever data I felt would make it more enjoyable for them..
Again, this isn't to say other tournament directors don't do the same thing but giving my first hand account.
Overall, it was fun and I think everyone attending had a good time whether they were healing, fighting or just hanging out to watch the higher ups drink tea together down in the arena.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Here's how I asked for data to use:
1.) Asked for Highest weapon/TM skill to be used in combat.
2.) Asked for armor skill of armor being worn in combat.
I wanted TELLEXP of those skills and some people complied. Others just told me their skills. One just told me what they hunted and I got the data from Elanthipedia using a mid range.
Now for matching combatants:
1.) Within 100 ranks of either weapon/TM or armor, match 'em up!
2.) More than 100 but less than 150 let the lower combatant know there was a slight mismatch (not revealing any numbers) and were they willing to fight. If yes, match 'em up!
3.) People chose their opponent, match 'em up!
4.) People didn't tell me their ranks (critter they fight), find anyone in the range and, match 'em up!
This meant that two people didn't have a match and so didn't get a fight. They were both cool with that. I, personally, am not going to match someone up based on skills that I know is gonna get demolished unless they say "okay".
Also, the TELLSTAT was a no go. I don't think that's going to happen but if I see over the course of time some massive slaughtering like the OP mentioned I'd ask them to help me pair them up better and get whatever data I felt would make it more enjoyable for them..
Again, this isn't to say other tournament directors don't do the same thing but giving my first hand account.
Overall, it was fun and I think everyone attending had a good time whether they were healing, fighting or just hanging out to watch the higher ups drink tea together down in the arena.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
