I was just reading over the order bylaws and I noticed that for some reason an order has to be officially sanctioned by the province or government in order to be official.
This also means that, at any time the PC deemed fit, he could remove the order's "official" status.
I don't know about all the other orders, but when I joined the ODS it was about protecting the citizens of the province. We shouldn't need to cow to the Baron or whoever else happens to be in charge just to remain an official order (in the OOC sense).
Just my thoughts on the subject.
-Teeklin
NKRISS
TELGER
Re: Government sanction
03/02/2008 04:37 PM CST
I think that's partially left over from the original plan for halls, etc. If an order gets government funding then it makes sense for them to have good relations with the government of the province in which they are incorporated.
That said, I've often toyed with creating an extra-provincial order that's modeled off of the military orders of the Crusades and answers to no one but the Thirteen. I think it would be fun to create some tension with the powers of five provinces should such a group gain enough momentum, similar to the threat the Templars were thought to pose to France that led to their dismantling.
~Thilan
That said, I've often toyed with creating an extra-provincial order that's modeled off of the military orders of the Crusades and answers to no one but the Thirteen. I think it would be fun to create some tension with the powers of five provinces should such a group gain enough momentum, similar to the threat the Templars were thought to pose to France that led to their dismantling.
~Thilan
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Government sanction
03/02/2008 09:47 PM CST
I too think the requirement for provincial approval is archaic and should be reconsidered.
Rev. Reene
John: Boys, petty theft, assault, battery, breaking and entering, assault with a deadly computer peripheral, misdemeanor vandalism and loitering.
John: And those are just the things I think you did this weekend.
Rev. Reene
John: Boys, petty theft, assault, battery, breaking and entering, assault with a deadly computer peripheral, misdemeanor vandalism and loitering.
John: And those are just the things I think you did this weekend.
TIERO11
Re: Government sanction
03/03/2008 09:00 AM CST
Thilan, the Templars weren't dismantled due to sovereignty issues as a prime cause. The prime cause was for the money. Being the first international bankers they held quite a bit of it, not to mention a great deal of debt.
I suppose next you'll tell me that the Crusades were primarily a religious cause.
I suppose next you'll tell me that the Crusades were primarily a religious cause.
TELGER
Re: Government sanction
03/03/2008 09:58 AM CST
>>Thilan, the Templars weren't dismantled due to sovereignty issues as a prime cause. The prime cause was for the money. Being the first international bankers they held quite a bit of it, not to mention a great deal of debt.
I didn't mention "sovereignty issues as a prime cause" anywhere. Try not to read too much into things to make your own case for your own made up argument.
~Thilan
I didn't mention "sovereignty issues as a prime cause" anywhere. Try not to read too much into things to make your own case for your own made up argument.
~Thilan
DR-ARIAWEN
Re: Government sanction
03/03/2008 11:05 PM CST
I think this is rather a moot point. If a group wants the rank and privilege that goes with being an Order, it is required to give allegiance and loyalty to the government where the Order is sanctioned.
Don't be an Order or part of an Order, if you don't wish to 'cow to the Baron'.
Nothing prevents players from being a group, having their own events and doing their own thing. It just won't have 'governmental' backing.
Ari
Don't be an Order or part of an Order, if you don't wish to 'cow to the Baron'.
Nothing prevents players from being a group, having their own events and doing their own thing. It just won't have 'governmental' backing.
Ari
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 12:37 AM CST
>> Nothing prevents players from being a group, having their own events and doing their own thing. It just won't have 'governmental' backing.
I think the request was that Orders should perhaps be a mechanical distinction on an OOC level. Certainly if you want to operate "officially" within a province you'll still need the approval of the province(s) you wish to operate in. It would be really nice to have Order mechanics available to a group without that group being one that is sanctioned ICly by a government.
Rev. Reene
John: Boys, petty theft, assault, battery, breaking and entering, assault with a deadly computer peripheral, misdemeanor vandalism and loitering.
John: And those are just the things I think you did this weekend.
I think the request was that Orders should perhaps be a mechanical distinction on an OOC level. Certainly if you want to operate "officially" within a province you'll still need the approval of the province(s) you wish to operate in. It would be really nice to have Order mechanics available to a group without that group being one that is sanctioned ICly by a government.
Rev. Reene
John: Boys, petty theft, assault, battery, breaking and entering, assault with a deadly computer peripheral, misdemeanor vandalism and loitering.
John: And those are just the things I think you did this weekend.
NKRISS
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 02:05 AM CST
I just don't want an order to decide to turn on the Baron and fight against him and then be disbanded OOC for that action.
-Teeklin
-Teeklin
DR-OOLAN
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 02:18 AM CST
>>I just don't want an order to decide to turn on the Baron and fight against him and then be disbanded OOC for that action.
I would think if the order were to be disbanded it would be done so IC, meaning losing the sanction and all the perks that go with it. You can still be a group, calling yourself by that same name but why would you expect to keep the perks of being an order? Granted I'm not in any way connected to the Orders and this is only my opinion, but here is my take on it. If you want a group of players that can do whatever they want within the 5 provinces, then you can do so. If you want to be associated with a specific province and be given a meeting area and other support from the province (which I would assume to include any GM assistance that is order related) then you kinda have to gain the support of said province in the manner stated.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
I would think if the order were to be disbanded it would be done so IC, meaning losing the sanction and all the perks that go with it. You can still be a group, calling yourself by that same name but why would you expect to keep the perks of being an order? Granted I'm not in any way connected to the Orders and this is only my opinion, but here is my take on it. If you want a group of players that can do whatever they want within the 5 provinces, then you can do so. If you want to be associated with a specific province and be given a meeting area and other support from the province (which I would assume to include any GM assistance that is order related) then you kinda have to gain the support of said province in the manner stated.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
DR-ARIAWEN
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 02:36 AM CST
It is an interesting discussion because really it pinpoints just what it means to be an Order and why the province an Order is sanctioned in is so important.
Orders don't just 'happen' and they make some pretty definite commitments. It is very hard work to keep an Order going. There is a list of requirements a mile long all of which is agreed to and which predicates whether an Order keeps its sanction. Official Orders are not groups who can do what they want or as they please when it comes to who they want to be at odds with. Hopefully an Order is so busy providing services to the citizens of the province that they don't have the time to be discordant.
An Official Order promises to benefit the Province, keep the laws of the Province (and stay within policy) and the Order as an organisation supported by that Province, pledges allegiance to the government of the Province. An Order cannot turn on their provincial government and expect to remain an Order of that Province.
That kind of precludes the scenario you pose. It simply is not feasible to have an Official Order who is against the government of their sanctioning province. While it might be fun for a little while, the nature of the game and the system we operate under simply does not cater to that kind of gameplay.
When Orders are stable once more, comfortably housed and we have Order mansions etc, then perhaps it would be a time to investigate if the system would support 'underground' Orders, but for now, I just can't get my head around such thoughts.
Therefore, under the present regime, if an Order decides they could no longer support the Provincial government, they would have to withdraw from being an official Order and would operate as an unofficial Order or standard group. I haven't dealt with a 'rogue' Order to be honest, so it would be a challenge, however, I can see the Administrator of Orders being very displeased with such a group and after some discussions and deteriorating standing within the province etc, eventually the threat of removal would be very real.
That Order would then have to seek sanctioning elsewhere, and from an IC point of view, I doubt any other Provincial leader would be open to accepting an Order that has decided to turn on its previous benefactor, unless somewhere we see a war between the provinces. Then it might be fun to see what eventuates. But I think that may also open up a big can of discord and upset that would be hard to recover from and just be really unpleasant in the long term.
Ari
Orders don't just 'happen' and they make some pretty definite commitments. It is very hard work to keep an Order going. There is a list of requirements a mile long all of which is agreed to and which predicates whether an Order keeps its sanction. Official Orders are not groups who can do what they want or as they please when it comes to who they want to be at odds with. Hopefully an Order is so busy providing services to the citizens of the province that they don't have the time to be discordant.
An Official Order promises to benefit the Province, keep the laws of the Province (and stay within policy) and the Order as an organisation supported by that Province, pledges allegiance to the government of the Province. An Order cannot turn on their provincial government and expect to remain an Order of that Province.
That kind of precludes the scenario you pose. It simply is not feasible to have an Official Order who is against the government of their sanctioning province. While it might be fun for a little while, the nature of the game and the system we operate under simply does not cater to that kind of gameplay.
When Orders are stable once more, comfortably housed and we have Order mansions etc, then perhaps it would be a time to investigate if the system would support 'underground' Orders, but for now, I just can't get my head around such thoughts.
Therefore, under the present regime, if an Order decides they could no longer support the Provincial government, they would have to withdraw from being an official Order and would operate as an unofficial Order or standard group. I haven't dealt with a 'rogue' Order to be honest, so it would be a challenge, however, I can see the Administrator of Orders being very displeased with such a group and after some discussions and deteriorating standing within the province etc, eventually the threat of removal would be very real.
That Order would then have to seek sanctioning elsewhere, and from an IC point of view, I doubt any other Provincial leader would be open to accepting an Order that has decided to turn on its previous benefactor, unless somewhere we see a war between the provinces. Then it might be fun to see what eventuates. But I think that may also open up a big can of discord and upset that would be hard to recover from and just be really unpleasant in the long term.
Ari
NKRISS
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 02:45 AM CST
I just never saw Orders as such a governmental thing, I saw them as groups that are maintained within a province that the government recognizes as a power. But what if the Baron decided to legalize slavery, for example? If the Order decided to fight against the power for the good of the province, are they really breaking their oaths?
This is all based on what orders are right now, which is to say organizations without any official headquarters or stationary positions. When I joined ODS I swore to protect Therengians, not to obey the Baron. Barons change over time, Orders are permanant, eternal.
-Teeklin
This is all based on what orders are right now, which is to say organizations without any official headquarters or stationary positions. When I joined ODS I swore to protect Therengians, not to obey the Baron. Barons change over time, Orders are permanant, eternal.
-Teeklin
DR-OOLAN
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 03:17 AM CST
>>When I joined ODS I swore to protect Therengians, not to obey the Baron. Barons change over time, Orders are permanant, eternal.
Just to play devil's advocate...Isn't the Baron a Therengian you swore to protect? And no, Orders aren't permanent and eternal, they have very specific requirements in order to keep functioning within their province and so if those requirements are not met, the order suffers for it.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
Just to play devil's advocate...Isn't the Baron a Therengian you swore to protect? And no, Orders aren't permanent and eternal, they have very specific requirements in order to keep functioning within their province and so if those requirements are not met, the order suffers for it.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
DR-ARIAWEN
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 03:18 AM CST
Your perception on Orders is flawed. But I want to just deal with these topics thus:
1. Orders exist by the grace of the government.
2. The Baron will not legalize slavery.
3. What you pledged allegiance to is not the same thing as what the ODS agreed to do.
4. Orders are not permanent nor eternal.
5. Orders are not complete.
Ari.
1. Orders exist by the grace of the government.
2. The Baron will not legalize slavery.
3. What you pledged allegiance to is not the same thing as what the ODS agreed to do.
4. Orders are not permanent nor eternal.
5. Orders are not complete.
Ari.
NKRISS
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 03:56 AM CST
Fair enough on those points I suppose, I just don't understand what (at the moment) is the difference between being sanctioned by the government or not. If we chose to fight the Baron because he wanted all the first born males to be killed, how will that change our order?
Won't we all still be a group with the same name and goals and purpose and charter and members and whatnot? All we lose is a badge and title?
That's what I mean when I say "eternal" just that an order exists outside the government and on it's own timeline.
-Teeklin
Won't we all still be a group with the same name and goals and purpose and charter and members and whatnot? All we lose is a badge and title?
That's what I mean when I say "eternal" just that an order exists outside the government and on it's own timeline.
-Teeklin
DR-OOLAN
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 04:34 AM CST
>>Won't we all still be a group with the same name and goals and purpose and charter and members and whatnot? All we lose is a badge and title?
>>That's what I mean when I say "eternal" just that an order exists outside the government and on it's own timeline.
You'll lose the badge, title and any other perks that come with the Order itself. Both current and future. The group itself may be eternal as you say, but that doesn't mean the Order, which is sanctioned and supported by one of the provinces is the same. Keep in mind we are talking about a system that admittedly has seen very little development over the years but that doesn't mean that there won't end up being perks that could indeed set Orders apart from groups, aside from badges and titles. If you put your provincial sanction at risk, then you put at risk all of the other perks that go along with it, present and future.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
>>That's what I mean when I say "eternal" just that an order exists outside the government and on it's own timeline.
You'll lose the badge, title and any other perks that come with the Order itself. Both current and future. The group itself may be eternal as you say, but that doesn't mean the Order, which is sanctioned and supported by one of the provinces is the same. Keep in mind we are talking about a system that admittedly has seen very little development over the years but that doesn't mean that there won't end up being perks that could indeed set Orders apart from groups, aside from badges and titles. If you put your provincial sanction at risk, then you put at risk all of the other perks that go along with it, present and future.
GM Oolan Jeel
"This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organizing genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." Aneurin Bevan, May 1945, on World War II rationing and shortages in England.
TIERO11
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 10:08 AM CST
Forgive me for including you in my delusions. Context is key. Clarification could be a gate.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 11:45 AM CST
It seems to me as though there should be a distinction between what it means OOCly and mechanically to be an Order and what it means ICly to be an Order.
As I said, it would be very nice if Order mechanics could be opened up to groups that do not wish to ally themselves with any particular province. Make the remaining requirements different and/or stricter if you must, but these are significant OOC and mechanical perks that are being offered to a relatively small portion of players and this seems rather unfair. People already encounter enough difficulties roleplaying anything outside of the mainstream of the militias so it would be very nice if there were other options for people out there.
Rev. Reene
John: Boys, petty theft, assault, battery, breaking and entering, assault with a deadly computer peripheral, misdemeanor vandalism and loitering.
John: And those are just the things I think you did this weekend.
As I said, it would be very nice if Order mechanics could be opened up to groups that do not wish to ally themselves with any particular province. Make the remaining requirements different and/or stricter if you must, but these are significant OOC and mechanical perks that are being offered to a relatively small portion of players and this seems rather unfair. People already encounter enough difficulties roleplaying anything outside of the mainstream of the militias so it would be very nice if there were other options for people out there.
Rev. Reene
John: Boys, petty theft, assault, battery, breaking and entering, assault with a deadly computer peripheral, misdemeanor vandalism and loitering.
John: And those are just the things I think you did this weekend.
ALLGRINNELL
Re: Government sanction
03/04/2008 01:45 PM CST
>>5. Orders are not complete.
I think this is the main point of confusion in this thread. Reene (and I think Teek as well) is talking about the OOC perks of Orders as they have existed (in their incomplete fashion) for years. Basically, titles and badges and that's it. From an OOC standpoint, there's no reason why any solid group, sanctioned or unsanctioned, should be excluded from having those things.
The GMs, on the other hand, seem to be talking about Orders as they were originally conceived and as they will soon be implemented. Particularly, local perks such as Order offices granted by the province are incompatible with unsanctioned groups. But because the players never really have seen Orders as they were meant to be, we tend to think of them in a different way.
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I think this is the main point of confusion in this thread. Reene (and I think Teek as well) is talking about the OOC perks of Orders as they have existed (in their incomplete fashion) for years. Basically, titles and badges and that's it. From an OOC standpoint, there's no reason why any solid group, sanctioned or unsanctioned, should be excluded from having those things.
The GMs, on the other hand, seem to be talking about Orders as they were originally conceived and as they will soon be implemented. Particularly, local perks such as Order offices granted by the province are incompatible with unsanctioned groups. But because the players never really have seen Orders as they were meant to be, we tend to think of them in a different way.
Want to feel pretty, oh so pretty?
http://enchantress.leika.googlepages.com/home
Character customization through shifts, alterations, and custom enchantments!
NKRISS
DIAME
Re: Government sanction
03/05/2008 12:31 AM CST
I just now caught this entire thread so I just want to mention a couple things and thank Leika and everyone that's been bringing up good points.
Years ago, the provincial monarchs weren't being played by GMs like they are now so the orders being sanctioned by the province was more a matter of sanctioned by some guy we have never met and we know nothing about. The orders did what they did and nobody bothered them. Then suddenly we have a real live Baron to get to know, and at the same time we were being told we must be loyal and swear fealty to him and this rocked ODS to it's very roots. The order actually divided in half over the contraversy, some wanting to have Haven succeed from the province or uproot and move completely, the other half saying yes but we've always known we answer to the Baron even if we never see him and if we move we just have another monarch to deal with. In the years that have followed, the Baron has never once asked the orders to do something we were uncomfortable with or that went against our charter or mission statement. He leaves us alone for the most part to do what we do and relies on us to do what we do as well.
What would we lose if we lost our charter is more than you might realize. It's more than just badges and titles even with the system being incomplete. At this point if we want to put on events we have a huge resource of tools at our disposal. We get calendar, news, runner announcements, gifts, prizes, food tables, all manner of GM assistance that is only matched by the mentor or a wedding that you pay for. In addition to this, ODS gets to be both a military regiment as well as a social order. We have equal standing with the local military as well as equal responsibility and because of that we have the Baron's support in what we do. It's a two way street, we swore fealty to him and he swore his support to us. As long as we do what we do, upholding the laws of the land, protecting the citizens and all that, we can rely on the Baron's backing if push comes to shove with anyone. Another military regiment cannot claim any sort of rank over us even though we might be seen as nothing more than a backstreet militia to some.
What does all this mean for the average general member of an Order? Well, if you don't participate in the events or the military side of it not much but it also means you don't get a lot out of being a member at all. When we do get our regional office and/or order house we'll have even more to play with and enjoy. Our bylaws still state that we will uphold the local laws of the province, so going against the Baron also means going against the order itself.
Even if being a part of a sanctioned order doesn't seem like that big of a deal to some people, I know of unsanctioned orders that have been waiting for years and would dearly love to have that slot as well. If there wasn't something special about official orders to begin with, nobody would ever bother.
Anyway, just my thoughts on all of it.
Years ago, the provincial monarchs weren't being played by GMs like they are now so the orders being sanctioned by the province was more a matter of sanctioned by some guy we have never met and we know nothing about. The orders did what they did and nobody bothered them. Then suddenly we have a real live Baron to get to know, and at the same time we were being told we must be loyal and swear fealty to him and this rocked ODS to it's very roots. The order actually divided in half over the contraversy, some wanting to have Haven succeed from the province or uproot and move completely, the other half saying yes but we've always known we answer to the Baron even if we never see him and if we move we just have another monarch to deal with. In the years that have followed, the Baron has never once asked the orders to do something we were uncomfortable with or that went against our charter or mission statement. He leaves us alone for the most part to do what we do and relies on us to do what we do as well.
What would we lose if we lost our charter is more than you might realize. It's more than just badges and titles even with the system being incomplete. At this point if we want to put on events we have a huge resource of tools at our disposal. We get calendar, news, runner announcements, gifts, prizes, food tables, all manner of GM assistance that is only matched by the mentor or a wedding that you pay for. In addition to this, ODS gets to be both a military regiment as well as a social order. We have equal standing with the local military as well as equal responsibility and because of that we have the Baron's support in what we do. It's a two way street, we swore fealty to him and he swore his support to us. As long as we do what we do, upholding the laws of the land, protecting the citizens and all that, we can rely on the Baron's backing if push comes to shove with anyone. Another military regiment cannot claim any sort of rank over us even though we might be seen as nothing more than a backstreet militia to some.
What does all this mean for the average general member of an Order? Well, if you don't participate in the events or the military side of it not much but it also means you don't get a lot out of being a member at all. When we do get our regional office and/or order house we'll have even more to play with and enjoy. Our bylaws still state that we will uphold the local laws of the province, so going against the Baron also means going against the order itself.
Even if being a part of a sanctioned order doesn't seem like that big of a deal to some people, I know of unsanctioned orders that have been waiting for years and would dearly love to have that slot as well. If there wasn't something special about official orders to begin with, nobody would ever bother.
Anyway, just my thoughts on all of it.
DR-ARIAWEN
Re: Government sanction
03/06/2008 02:47 AM CST
While I do not want to give away too much, we do have plans to help groups be a bit more official than they are now.
We will still have Orders but for those who don't want to go 'the whole hog' there will be a 'lite' version. Being an Order will be prestigious and hopefully more fun than ever.
Ariawen.
We will still have Orders but for those who don't want to go 'the whole hog' there will be a 'lite' version. Being an Order will be prestigious and hopefully more fun than ever.
Ariawen.
ALLGRINNELL
Re: Government sanction
03/07/2008 12:42 AM CST
>>We will still have Orders but for those who don't want to go 'the whole hog' there will be a 'lite' version. Being an Order will be prestigious and hopefully more fun than ever.
Sweeeeeet.
Knowing some of your plans for Orders, I'd even go so far as to say suuuuuper sweeeeeeet.
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Sweeeeeet.
Knowing some of your plans for Orders, I'd even go so far as to say suuuuuper sweeeeeeet.
Want to feel pretty, oh so pretty?
http://enchantress.leika.googlepages.com/home
Character customization through shifts, alterations, and custom enchantments!
HELLCAT
Re: Government sanction
05/05/2008 05:40 PM CDT
....
Ariawen.
Me..you..beers..con. You've earned many of them.
___
~Ternith Sjomah
Yolesi snorts and says to you, "Looks like you've been on a samatak binge. That's illegal, even in these parts, and I don't want any part of that trouble."
Ariawen.
Me..you..beers..con. You've earned many of them.
___
~Ternith Sjomah
Yolesi snorts and says to you, "Looks like you've been on a samatak binge. That's illegal, even in these parts, and I don't want any part of that trouble."
