I recently bought a kertig shovel (2 volumes glaes, 4 volumes kertig, 2 volumes filler, I think covellite but not positive. I am consistently getting less than 30 volumes per vein now when before with a more standard forged shovel I consistently get more than 50 volumes per vein. I have over 600 outdoorsmanship and I use wolf scent, the kertig shovel is extremely effective at increasing speed and the forged is very effective. Is this working as intended or can someone please help me understand why I am getting so much less metal?
I submitted a bug in game but perhaps I need to re-post this to the bug section of the forums? can a GM please advise?
HAAGEN4LIFE
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
04/30/2013 01:52 PM CDT
Might have just fallen victim to the RNG.
Just recently I had a damite vein that yielded ~50 volume yet a silver vein yielded like 20.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
Just recently I had a damite vein that yielded ~50 volume yet a silver vein yielded like 20.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
HAAGEN4LIFE
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
04/30/2013 02:37 PM CDT
Turns out the mix of the Kertig shovel (which gives less than 30 volumes) is quite messy, would this make a difference?
You analyze every minute detail of the wide shovel and smile knowingly to yourself.
This appears to be a crafting tool and it is in pristine condition.
This tool is used to shovel fuel in a forge, and mine stone, ore and gems.
The workmanship is masterfully-crafted.
Assessing the shovel's durability, you determine it is particularly weak against damage.
About 8 volume of metal was used in this item's construction.
This tool looks recently cleaned and will resist damage for a time.
The metal appears to be composed of: 20.40% oravir, 70.52% kertig, 4.08% platinum, 0.17% high carbon steel, and 4.81% medium carbon steel.
This tool appears to be extremely effective at increasing crafting speed.
This appears to be the work of someone with the initial "A.".
The metal appears to have been slowly tempered to improve its durability.
The more standard forged shovel, which gives more than 50 volumes is:
You analyze every minute detail of the tapered shovel and smile knowingly to yourself.
This appears to be a crafting tool and it is in pristine condition.
This tool is used to shovel fuel in a forge, and mine stone, ore and gems.
The workmanship is masterfully-crafted.
Assessing the shovel's durability, you determine it is very delicate and easily damaged.
About 8 volume of metal was used in this item's construction.
This tool looks recently cleaned and will resist damage for a time.
The metal appears to be composed of: 67.00% high carbon steel, and 33.00% oravir.
This tool appears to be very effective at increasing crafting speed.
This appears to be the work of someone with the initials "L. S.".
The metal appears to have been slowly tempered to improve its durability.
You analyze every minute detail of the wide shovel and smile knowingly to yourself.
This appears to be a crafting tool and it is in pristine condition.
This tool is used to shovel fuel in a forge, and mine stone, ore and gems.
The workmanship is masterfully-crafted.
Assessing the shovel's durability, you determine it is particularly weak against damage.
About 8 volume of metal was used in this item's construction.
This tool looks recently cleaned and will resist damage for a time.
The metal appears to be composed of: 20.40% oravir, 70.52% kertig, 4.08% platinum, 0.17% high carbon steel, and 4.81% medium carbon steel.
This tool appears to be extremely effective at increasing crafting speed.
This appears to be the work of someone with the initial "A.".
The metal appears to have been slowly tempered to improve its durability.
The more standard forged shovel, which gives more than 50 volumes is:
You analyze every minute detail of the tapered shovel and smile knowingly to yourself.
This appears to be a crafting tool and it is in pristine condition.
This tool is used to shovel fuel in a forge, and mine stone, ore and gems.
The workmanship is masterfully-crafted.
Assessing the shovel's durability, you determine it is very delicate and easily damaged.
About 8 volume of metal was used in this item's construction.
This tool looks recently cleaned and will resist damage for a time.
The metal appears to be composed of: 67.00% high carbon steel, and 33.00% oravir.
This tool appears to be very effective at increasing crafting speed.
This appears to be the work of someone with the initials "L. S.".
The metal appears to have been slowly tempered to improve its durability.
RAIST
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
04/30/2013 02:45 PM CDT
No.
Unless there's a massive and likely very wierd bug, the shovel shouldn't change how much you get (beyond a slight increase do to masterful tools giving you a skill bonus).
I'm suspecting it's a coincidence.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Unless there's a massive and likely very wierd bug, the shovel shouldn't change how much you get (beyond a slight increase do to masterful tools giving you a skill bonus).
I'm suspecting it's a coincidence.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
ILLIENA
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
04/30/2013 02:48 PM CDT
> Turns out the mix of the Kertig shovel is quite messy, would this make a difference?
No. It's a strange mixture, but as long as it's over 67% kertig, it'll be fine. You can tell it is because the adjective is kertig, not kertig-alloy.
No. It's a strange mixture, but as long as it's over 67% kertig, it'll be fine. You can tell it is because the adjective is kertig, not kertig-alloy.
EDERICK
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
04/30/2013 03:18 PM CDT
It shouldn't, the only reason i would think that would make any sense is if workability for reason modified your ability to get material, if that is the case then the kertig is much less workable then the other, but i highly doubt thats the case. I would think its just random chance.
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
04/30/2013 03:33 PM CDT
I thought there was a trade off between speed and yield? I know that was the case with Pick v. Shovel. I thought there was a difference between types of shovel (wide v. other). Maybe there is even a range between the same type of the same tool?
It does seem very odd that it would be that big of a swing, though.
I think the RNG is playing games with your math.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
It does seem very odd that it would be that big of a swing, though.
I think the RNG is playing games with your math.
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
REASONMJ
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
04/30/2013 03:55 PM CDT
>>I thought there was a trade off between speed and yield? I know that was the case with Pick v. Shovel.
That's a different type of trade off. The point of Pickaxes is to clear out the room faster, so they necessarily result in lower yields (because otherwise there would be zero point of a shovel). This trade off has nothing to do with swing speed - it is a tradeoff on each individual swing that a pickaxe will "use up" more of the remaining material in the room
>>I think the RNG is playing games with your math.
It's pretty safe to assume this, without some statistically significant data to analyze. There is naturally an enormous fluctuation based on how many Massive nuggets you find (which generally can be anywhere from 0 to 4 per room). I use a glaes shovel (so also extremely effective speed), and I've seen as much as 75 volume from one vein, and as little as 20 or so, depending on how much the massive nugget RNG loves me
The one thing to watch out for where a faster swing speed WILL actually hurt you is if you are swinging too fast and triggering disasters (which can include blowing up all metal in the room and lowering your yield).
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
That's a different type of trade off. The point of Pickaxes is to clear out the room faster, so they necessarily result in lower yields (because otherwise there would be zero point of a shovel). This trade off has nothing to do with swing speed - it is a tradeoff on each individual swing that a pickaxe will "use up" more of the remaining material in the room
>>I think the RNG is playing games with your math.
It's pretty safe to assume this, without some statistically significant data to analyze. There is naturally an enormous fluctuation based on how many Massive nuggets you find (which generally can be anywhere from 0 to 4 per room). I use a glaes shovel (so also extremely effective speed), and I've seen as much as 75 volume from one vein, and as little as 20 or so, depending on how much the massive nugget RNG loves me
The one thing to watch out for where a faster swing speed WILL actually hurt you is if you are swinging too fast and triggering disasters (which can include blowing up all metal in the room and lowering your yield).
Apu
_
Respect. Integrity. World Domination.
https://sites.google.com/site/apucorpdr/
HAAGEN4LIFE
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
05/03/2013 07:30 PM CDT
Figured I needed to some research over the least three days. There is certainly something causing a lower yield and one thing that caught my attention was that it may be taking the kertig shovel longer to strike metal for the first time. On a few occasions the Kertig shovel took more than 20 hits and seems to be consistently taking longer than the tapered shovel. Any special circumstances are noted, such as traps. I'll try to collect a few more over sets of data over the next few days with the strike count.
Kertig:
Silver - Yield 29 - Small Trap set off
Silver - Yield 31
Silver (Good Quantity) Yield 47, 10 Nuggets
Silver (substantial) Yield 39, 12 Nuggets (25 strikes to get started)
gold (Good Quantity) Yield 40 , 12. nuggets
Silver (Good Quantity) Yield 51, 14 Nuggets
Niniam (Decent) Yield 33, 9 Fragments
Silver (Good Quantity) Yield 43, 14 Nuggets
Gold (Decent) Yield 35, 8 Nuggets (22 strikes to get started)
Tapered forged shovel:
Lumium - Yield 60
Silver (substantial) Yield 68, 16 Nuggets (Small Trap set off)
Niniam (substantial) Yield 48, 12 Fragments
Gold (substantial) Yield 76, 19 Nuggets (tool down to "good" condition by end)
Silver (Decent) Yield 43, 10 Nuggets
Kertig:
Silver - Yield 29 - Small Trap set off
Silver - Yield 31
Silver (Good Quantity) Yield 47, 10 Nuggets
Silver (substantial) Yield 39, 12 Nuggets (25 strikes to get started)
gold (Good Quantity) Yield 40 , 12. nuggets
Silver (Good Quantity) Yield 51, 14 Nuggets
Niniam (Decent) Yield 33, 9 Fragments
Silver (Good Quantity) Yield 43, 14 Nuggets
Gold (Decent) Yield 35, 8 Nuggets (22 strikes to get started)
Tapered forged shovel:
Lumium - Yield 60
Silver (substantial) Yield 68, 16 Nuggets (Small Trap set off)
Niniam (substantial) Yield 48, 12 Fragments
Gold (substantial) Yield 76, 19 Nuggets (tool down to "good" condition by end)
Silver (Decent) Yield 43, 10 Nuggets
SPANTONV
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
05/04/2013 01:14 PM CDT
I don't think its the kertig shovel I think its overall. I'm finding less platinum/glaes/rare metal yield in rare metal veins since 3.0. I use a tapered steel shovel.
I found a niniam vein a few weeks back which only yielded 13 volumes with the vein showing a substantial amount at the beginning. Before 3.0 I could find at least 36 volumes.
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
I found a niniam vein a few weeks back which only yielded 13 volumes with the vein showing a substantial amount at the beginning. Before 3.0 I could find at least 36 volumes.
Regards,
Sortny/Braunwen
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
05/05/2013 12:33 AM CDT
Based on the data you posted, we have some reason to believe there's something different between the two shovels. I ran a quick test (Mann-Whitney U, for those who know it), and got a p-value of .007, which means we'd only expect such a difference to occur by chance less than 1% of the time.
HOWEVER, in order for this test to be valid you cannot be cherry picking your data. That is, you CANNOT look back in your logs for "a while" until you have a few data points. You need to decide ahead of time how many data points you will collect from each shovel, and then get them. Right now it could be that you've inadvertently grabbed the data points that fit what you expect/want to see.
So you have basically two options that will satisfy me. 1) Do at least 10 rooms with each shovel, starting now, and post the data for me. 2) Grab the last, say, 50 you did with the low-tier shovel and send to me, along with all the kertig ones so far.
-- Player of Eyuve
HOWEVER, in order for this test to be valid you cannot be cherry picking your data. That is, you CANNOT look back in your logs for "a while" until you have a few data points. You need to decide ahead of time how many data points you will collect from each shovel, and then get them. Right now it could be that you've inadvertently grabbed the data points that fit what you expect/want to see.
So you have basically two options that will satisfy me. 1) Do at least 10 rooms with each shovel, starting now, and post the data for me. 2) Grab the last, say, 50 you did with the low-tier shovel and send to me, along with all the kertig ones so far.
-- Player of Eyuve
HAAGEN4LIFE
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
05/06/2013 02:52 PM CDT
Thanks Eyuve, I'll take your suggestion and make this more scientific. I didn't have a lot of opportunity to mine this weekend but I will work on collecting a list of at least 10 rooms using each shovel and the total yield. I'll also get out of the ice caves because I think it might bias the data (people have been known to disappear in there...)
HAAGEN4LIFE
Re: Mining metal volumes reduced by 50% because of Kertig shovel
05/07/2013 04:09 PM CDT
Embarrassing but mystery might be solved with the most simplest of answers - The new shovel was so fast I was missing prospect careful in my "routine" occasionally.
I'll keep my eye on the yield over the next few weeks and I still believe my tapered shovel is "lucky" but I imagine the Kertig will be comparable now.
I'll keep my eye on the yield over the next few weeks and I still believe my tapered shovel is "lucky" but I imagine the Kertig will be comparable now.
