Origami exp still needs a boost to outfitting, or it needs its own lore skill. With the reqs for lore needed for some of the guilds, I'd like to have more options than having to make the choice of either using a crafting system or not circling.
Please.
C0UGAR
GRIM45
Re: Still needs a boost
12/10/2019 07:35 AM CST
>I'd like to have more options than having to make the choice of either using a crafting system or not circling.
No guild is required to use crafting to circle.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
No guild is required to use crafting to circle.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
SHIFT3
Re: Still needs a boost
12/10/2019 01:32 PM CST
> No guild is required to use crafting to circle.
According to elanthipedia, Traders need 5 lores. Trading and Appraisal are hard requirements. Performance and Tactics can take the place of two, but you'll need to fill in the 3rd with 500 ranks in a craft or defunct mech to get to 150th. 1000 ranks if you want to get to 200th.
ACIDICSNAIL
Re: Still needs a boost
12/10/2019 01:46 PM CST
>>Performance and Tactics can take the place of two
Poor scholarship gets forgotten. Thankfully there are enough lore skills that no guild, not even lore primes, need to craft to circle.
Poor scholarship gets forgotten. Thankfully there are enough lore skills that no guild, not even lore primes, need to craft to circle.
PRIMEQ
Re: Still needs a boost
12/10/2019 05:08 PM CST
>>Thankfully there are enough lore skills that no guild, not even lore primes, need to craft to circle.
I believe this was a deliberate design decision by the GMs. They did not want anyone to have to craft if they didn't want to.
If you dislike the complexity of crafting, you might try out the other lores, which generally only require a command or two. Not judging, just suggesting. Personally I like the complexity of the crafts, and I think it's nice to reward players who put in the extra effort to understand those systems.
Oh and also FYI, you can ANALYZE the object you're working on to get hints about what to do next. I believe you can also read detailed instructions at the start of each crafting book or find crafting guides on the wiki.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
I believe this was a deliberate design decision by the GMs. They did not want anyone to have to craft if they didn't want to.
If you dislike the complexity of crafting, you might try out the other lores, which generally only require a command or two. Not judging, just suggesting. Personally I like the complexity of the crafts, and I think it's nice to reward players who put in the extra effort to understand those systems.
Oh and also FYI, you can ANALYZE the object you're working on to get hints about what to do next. I believe you can also read detailed instructions at the start of each crafting book or find crafting guides on the wiki.
- Navesi
The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald
CHIMERIAN
Re: Still needs a boost
12/10/2019 06:51 PM CST
I think for some, the issue is that prior to mechanical lore not working, they were using mechanical lore to level. Then they are forced to put mechanical lore into a crafting skill (or just leave it where it is but thats a whole different conversation). If origami taught to high levels as before, it would resolve this issue. It makes sense to me that it should teach to very high levels since that is why we have so many different origami patterns. Plus throughout the discussion of the mechanical lore split/mechanical lore not teaching, we were repeatedly told that origami would still exist. And yes it does exist but no one told us ahead of time it would be teaching this badly.
- Felicini
- Felicini
C0UGAR
Re: Still needs a boost
12/11/2019 04:29 AM CST
Felicini is correct. I have a 130+ character that was using Mech lore as their primary lore. Now I would need to back train combats *a lot* to learn tactics safely - which would mean training combats for a long time, before being able to circle again. Or work a crafting skill. And since vocals didnt get moved into performance (non-bard), I'd have to start training performance from 0 as well. Considering I never liked the idea of training any musical skills for a non-bard character, its just going to be something I have to deal with. But basically - Yes, I'm stuck either back training any number of skills to avoid a crafting system, or I must take up a crafting system, or just not circle that character any more.
GRIM45
Re: Still needs a boost
12/11/2019 05:40 AM CST
>Now I would need to back train combats *a lot* to learn tactics safely
Umm...no? What danger do you think there is training tactics at level?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
Umm...no? What danger do you think there is training tactics at level?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
C0UGAR
Re: Still needs a boost
12/11/2019 12:41 PM CST
<<Umm...no? What danger do you think there is training tactics at level?
For a character that has almost 0 combats, but needs to train tactics at 600+? Unless you are saying goblins will train tactics to cap? (I actually dont know).
For a character that has almost 0 combats, but needs to train tactics at 600+? Unless you are saying goblins will train tactics to cap? (I actually dont know).
GRIM45
Re: Still needs a boost
12/11/2019 04:17 PM CST
>For a character that has almost 0 combats, but needs to train tactics at 600+? Unless you are saying goblins will train tactics to cap? (I actually dont know).
For a zero combat character (something not mentioned until now) then, yes you need to train a crafting skill. I suggest knitting.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
For a zero combat character (something not mentioned until now) then, yes you need to train a crafting skill. I suggest knitting.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
GRIM45
Re: Still needs a boost
12/11/2019 04:20 PM CST
>If origami taught to high levels as before, it would resolve this issue. It makes sense to me that it should teach to very high levels since that is why we have so many different origami patterns. Plus throughout the discussion of the mechanical lore split/mechanical lore not teaching, we were repeatedly told that origami would still exist. And yes it does exist but no one told us ahead of time it would be teaching this badly.
The design paradigm, is if you want to be good at a craft, you must practice that craft. While I think there are many problems with the design of the new crafting systems, this point makes sense.
As you point out, you can still do origami, and still learn. It's just not as efficient. To me, this is a valid trade-off.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
The design paradigm, is if you want to be good at a craft, you must practice that craft. While I think there are many problems with the design of the new crafting systems, this point makes sense.
As you point out, you can still do origami, and still learn. It's just not as efficient. To me, this is a valid trade-off.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
C0UGAR
Re: Still needs a boost
12/12/2019 05:29 AM CST
The point doesnt always need to be what sounds like it makes the most sense. Sure, we can continue to make the argument that doing the craft teaches the craft the best. But origami didnt get the luxury of its own skill and having it teach better than it does, doesnt mean it would teach the best. Origami is a complete system that requires materials, instructions, and advances through tiers. It's no different than training appraisal and is actually more complex than training appraisal, or power perception, or a number of other skills because of its requirements and tiers. To say well, origami isnt outfitting, so it shouldnt train as well, is really just making a for the sake of making the rule. We could make more rules for the sake of it and claim they didnt break outfitting up into a sewing skill, and cutting skills, and a knitting skill (all completely different skills but all train outfitting so maybe they should teach less) What actually is the skill of outfitting? Its a bunch of different skills rolled into one. Who's to say the folding of paper wouldnt help with folding fabrics before sewing them.
<<For a zero combat character (something not mentioned until now) then, yes you need to train a crafting skill. I suggest knitting.
Which goes back to my original point: the mech split is now forcing people to pick up a crafting skill, or back train hundreds of ranks, which I personally dont find as a good solution. After coming back after a number of years, I would hope the idea is to want players to stick around. Not to find a hurdle to have to jump over, get discouraged, and leave again. And I'm not even saying that is my plan, but it should be a legitimate concern for any players coming back after any amount of time. Of course, we all expect to have to relearn some things, and learn the changes. But, if we have an established character, we dont expect to come back, and feel like we are in a massive hole. Call it bad planning or foresight, or what ever. While it may not be easy to fix right away - It can at least be mitigated, with a simple ask like boosting how well origami teaches.
<<For a zero combat character (something not mentioned until now) then, yes you need to train a crafting skill. I suggest knitting.
Which goes back to my original point: the mech split is now forcing people to pick up a crafting skill, or back train hundreds of ranks, which I personally dont find as a good solution. After coming back after a number of years, I would hope the idea is to want players to stick around. Not to find a hurdle to have to jump over, get discouraged, and leave again. And I'm not even saying that is my plan, but it should be a legitimate concern for any players coming back after any amount of time. Of course, we all expect to have to relearn some things, and learn the changes. But, if we have an established character, we dont expect to come back, and feel like we are in a massive hole. Call it bad planning or foresight, or what ever. While it may not be easy to fix right away - It can at least be mitigated, with a simple ask like boosting how well origami teaches.
DR-JAVAC
Re: Still needs a boost
12/12/2019 02:24 PM CST
Can you give me some idea of why you think it needs sped up? How long is it taking you? Using what pattern and at what ranks?
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
C0UGAR
Re: Still needs a boost
12/13/2019 03:19 AM CST
Hi Javac,
I'd say 0-95 ranks trained ok with the Bird instructions. As soon as I hit 95-100, I wasnt able to learn nearly at all, at with a Star, flower or jackal (30 agility) I was getting 2/34 after many many many folds (mostly failing). I figured I might as well try to up my agility so I was a little more successful on the harder patterns which seemed to help a little. But 30 agility for 100 ranks in a skill should have been enough. I upped the agility to 50, so I was able to be more successful with the jackal instructions. Now Jackal, which should train well to 170-190 ranks. It takes me 8 folds to complete the jackal, or 80 seconds, with 0 mistakes. After 3 jackals I was 4/34. So 240 seconds or 4 minutes to get 4/34 (thoughtful) puts it at about 30 minutes (35-40 if you consider pulses) of roundtime to lock the skill at 124 ranks. Personally I think it should take about 1/3 to 1/2 that time (10-15 minutes tops), especially considering the agility is allowing me to fold something way over the skill level. At 30 agility I was completely failing most of the time on the Jackal, and had to work flower which was hit or miss and didnt teach well (never really got past 2/34). Star which would be at level was doable without failing, but also didnt teach past 2/34.
TLDR:
0-95 ranks taught okay with Bird @ 30 agility.
*100 ranks. 30 agility*
Star doesnt teach past 2/34
Flower doesnt teach past 2/34 and fails folding most of the time.
Jackal is impossible to fold or learn from.
*124 ranks. 50 agility*
Star doesnt teach past 2/34
Flower doesnt teach past 2/34
Jackal takes about 35-40 minutes to lock.
I'd say 0-95 ranks trained ok with the Bird instructions. As soon as I hit 95-100, I wasnt able to learn nearly at all, at with a Star, flower or jackal (30 agility) I was getting 2/34 after many many many folds (mostly failing). I figured I might as well try to up my agility so I was a little more successful on the harder patterns which seemed to help a little. But 30 agility for 100 ranks in a skill should have been enough. I upped the agility to 50, so I was able to be more successful with the jackal instructions. Now Jackal, which should train well to 170-190 ranks. It takes me 8 folds to complete the jackal, or 80 seconds, with 0 mistakes. After 3 jackals I was 4/34. So 240 seconds or 4 minutes to get 4/34 (thoughtful) puts it at about 30 minutes (35-40 if you consider pulses) of roundtime to lock the skill at 124 ranks. Personally I think it should take about 1/3 to 1/2 that time (10-15 minutes tops), especially considering the agility is allowing me to fold something way over the skill level. At 30 agility I was completely failing most of the time on the Jackal, and had to work flower which was hit or miss and didnt teach well (never really got past 2/34). Star which would be at level was doable without failing, but also didnt teach past 2/34.
TLDR:
0-95 ranks taught okay with Bird @ 30 agility.
*100 ranks. 30 agility*
Star doesnt teach past 2/34
Flower doesnt teach past 2/34 and fails folding most of the time.
Jackal is impossible to fold or learn from.
*124 ranks. 50 agility*
Star doesnt teach past 2/34
Flower doesnt teach past 2/34
Jackal takes about 35-40 minutes to lock.
CHIMERIAN
Re: Still needs a boost
12/13/2019 12:44 PM CST
Character A with lower outfitting learned fine.
Outfitting– 137
Intelligence - 105
Scholarship – 1364
Agility – 100 +2
Using gryphon instructions – mindlocked(34) after 25 minutes
…………………………………….
Character B with higher outfitting did not learn well. It would be wonderful if this could be fixed. Thank you.
Outfitting – 1029
Intelligence – 85+3
Scholarship – 1068
Agility – 67
Using scorpion instructions- considering(6) after 25 minutes
Using black window spider instructions – ruminating(8) after 25 minutes
Using guild phonix instruction – dabbling(1) after 25 minutes
- Felicini
Outfitting– 137
Intelligence - 105
Scholarship – 1364
Agility – 100 +2
Using gryphon instructions – mindlocked(34) after 25 minutes
…………………………………….
Character B with higher outfitting did not learn well. It would be wonderful if this could be fixed. Thank you.
Outfitting – 1029
Intelligence – 85+3
Scholarship – 1068
Agility – 67
Using scorpion instructions- considering(6) after 25 minutes
Using black window spider instructions – ruminating(8) after 25 minutes
Using guild phonix instruction – dabbling(1) after 25 minutes
- Felicini
C0UGAR
Re: Still needs a boost
12/13/2019 02:50 PM CST
The agility on character A is likely making up the huge gap, to allow the much harder instructions to be completed at a much lower skill level, which also appears to help with learning. A character with 100 ranks wouldnt likely have access to 100 agility, or in my case, be able to train from 30 to 50, which is likely to be the only reason we are able to learn at all.
So far it appears that a character has to have a high agility to be able to use instructions far above their skill level to learn. I could be wrong, but dont believe that was the case prior to origami being moved from mech lore to Outfitting.
So far it appears that a character has to have a high agility to be able to use instructions far above their skill level to learn. I could be wrong, but dont believe that was the case prior to origami being moved from mech lore to Outfitting.
SHIFT3
GRIM45
Re: Still needs a boost
12/14/2019 08:32 PM CST
Nope, intel (and scholarship) impacts how hard of a first fold you can make, agility (and now outfitting) impacts all other folds.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Origami#Instruction_Difficulty
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Origami#Instruction_Difficulty
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
