I couldn't tell you about most of their intent, but i can explain a bit about my experience, as i craft a lot.

So, yes, starting off is rough and time consuming, it requires a full set of tools from the society tool shop for most things, and you can start with a cheap crafting book and replace it as you get enough money and skill for the others.

One thing to note, crafting is almost identical to all crafts. I say almost, because there are difference, besides tools. You have a main set of tools you use depending what you are crafting, except knitting (Outfitting) only requires knitting needles. Once you start the process, you continue crafting, and change tools and/or actions as problems come up. You fix the problem, then continue crafting. Once you get some skill in the craft, and appraisal skill helps, you can analyze your unfinished product to see what the next step is. You also analyze the finished product (with enough skill) to tell what it's quality is, and other stats like durability and crafting speed (speed is for tools).

Once you get the hang of one craft, the rest are similar enough, you just have to get enough skill to analyze the product, and get familiar with the tools and problems that come up before that. Generally if you need help in-game, people will gather at the various nexuses (recall nexus list to see them if i recall), and you can ask questions if any crafters are around.

Thanks PB - That's not a bad suggestion. I'm still hoping one day the systems will be something I want to take part in.

Yeah, that's what I do too. Get the cheap maple from the society and make crappy composite bows. Two of them will lock my engineering.

On the other hand, recipes are nice are cure better than the store bough herbs IMO. I've got less than 200 and can make a lot of recipes now. Still working so I can make internal back, internal arms, and a couple of scar recipes. so doesn't take a lot to actually make things that are useful.

For forging specifically there's always the annoyance of having to shovel fuel, or push air with bellows. Even after hundreds of ranks in the craft our characters don't seem to know big or hot a fire needs to be to forge something they've made hundreds of. But, I think you are correct in that you could technically just hammer past those

>>Even after hundreds of ranks in the craft our characters don't seem to know big or hot a fire needs to be

I think this represents the fact that even after hundreds of ranks, fires still cool down and need more fuel/air sometimes.


- Navesi

The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald

>Nifty point, but whether a fire cools down or not, I would think you would eventually be able to know how much fuel/air was needed to keep a fire going long enough to forge an item you've done hundreds of times

Neat idea, but physics doesn't work that way.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh

>Nifty point, but whether a fire cools down or not, I would think you would eventually be able to know how much fuel/air was needed to keep a fire going long enough to forge an item you've done hundreds of times

>>Neat idea, but physics doesn't work that way.

Actually that's exactly how things work. Through repeated experimentation, you should be able to conclusively determine exactly how much of each of those things are needed over a specified time frame, if you're going to go the route of the scientific method. Either way, playability trumps reality and all these systems are needlessly complex in the amount of individual tools and actions needed to complete work orders.

Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.

> As already pointed out with high enough skill you can ignore the events and just pound through them.

Have you actually tested this because I don't think it's entirely true.

This is a basic recipe with 690 forging (575 base + 115). I'm not learning from this at all.

Can pound through: Turning, Pushing (bellows)

Can't pound through: Pushing (tub), Pushing (fuel), pouring (oil).

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> pound pest on anvil with hammer

After using the tongs to warm the pestle over the forge fire, you place it down upon the anvil and make some adjustments to its shape with carefully timed hammer taps. With expert precision the metal takes shape without any faults.

As you complete working the fire dies down and needs more fuel.
Roundtime: 16 sec.

> pound pest on anvil with hammer

The fire needs more fuel before you can do that.

[I have to push the fuel with a shovel to proceed] - this one run required two of these for 30 seconds.

You're oversimplifying this a bit, don't you think?

Resource Variables:
- Workability
- Quality (which is a reskin of workability)
- Hardness
- Potency (which is a reskin of hardness, kind of)
- Precision (which is a reskin of hardness, kind of)
- Durability
- Ductility
- Electrical
- Thermal
- Physical Protection
- Capacity
- Density (effectively requiring spreadsheets and magic formulas to get right)
- Toxicity (not turned on because it would kill the sub par craft)
- Solubility
- Efficacy
- Value
- Cloth types


Bonus/Penalty Systems:
- Assisting (who really uses this?)
- Techniques
- Hidden variables
- Phantom Bonuses from permanent choices
- "luck" in finding resources
- Pattern base difficulty
- Buffs
- Secondary tools (ie: mechanisms, poles)
- Rounding (metal alloying, capacity rounding)

Obnoxious components put into place seemingly to thwart scripts:
- Moving guild masters
- Stationary tools in societies
- Preparation

Tools & Secondary Resources: More than 70! I lost track trying to count them all. That's crazy to expect players to carry around. Imagine if you had to carry around 70+, non-stacked weapon components to hunt. It's nuts.

Books: Dozens of sigil books if you're going to keep them organized + 9 crafting books and counting.


> It sounds like what you want is to just hammer out the same command over and over?

Do you remember the discussion about removing attack? Enough players hated replacing one command with 20 that they coded in a work-around to keep it. This is that discussion all over again. If you are told to go into test to see if you can do something then the system because there's no easy way to tell if you can succeed then the system is unnecessarily complex. MTX purchases will frequently give you rewards on par with what the best crafters can craft, with none of the hassle, because what else are they going to sell it? Occasionally, they'll even give you rewards beyond what the best crafters can craft.

It's waaaay too late for this, but if I were redesigning the system, but a better system would look something like this:

Resource Variables (all crafts)
- Quality
- Physical Potency
- Elemental Potency
- Density

Tools:
- A single "toolbox" which you put tools into*. There are slots for each tool. When you craft, you just type "craft item with toolbox". It automatically moves the toolbox to the right slot and performs the next step. This is the "attack" of crafting. Maybe add a 1-2 second RT for using this command as opposed to the specific command.
- Secondary resources would be a natural part of the toolbox. You don't need to buy them. They may run out or not, but it's easy to refill. (think bard repair kit).
- Steps which are just extra steps are done automatically as part of the crafting process (grinding, tub pushing).
- A single verb you can use to craft (similar to attack).
- A single "quality" stat which affects both speed and potency.
- Keep the RT and stat mechanism as is now, but reduce it based on skillset placement. Lore primes would be 4-14 seconds per action, secondaries 8-24, tertiaries 10-30.

Crafting books:
- Far fewer products. As in 1/5th of what's in the books now. You don't have 4 pliers, you have one, two tops. You don't have 16 founts.
- All major crafts are in the same book (tailoring, forging, etc...)
- Alternatively, you have one crafting book and you buy individual pages to add to the book.
- Difficulty is ONLY controlled by the pattern, so if you have a 5/5 understanding on the difficulty and the technique then you'll always master-craft it with high-quality resources (which you can bring up to 99% with enough volume - see below). Higher skill lets you work with poorer quality resources.

Techniques:
- Binary on/off on whether or not you could mastercraft the end product. Capped at outstanding without the feat.
- No bonuses you have to try to calculate to determine difficulty.
- No phantom bonuses.
- Feats affecting tool quality, repair, speed bonuses more or less stay as is.

Resources:
- More redundancy in the system, especially among common materials*. This creates a saner means of determining tiers.
- Power would be based on difficulty of the critter. Higher difficulty is better quality.
- Yesterday's MTX = today's new creatures.
- Require specific resources for certain templates*.
- All crafts have a way of improving the quality of the resource by reducing the quantity.
- Better playability around the materials. There's only one thickness of cloth. Different cloths have different densities.

Scripting:
- The more complicated I make it, the more people are going to script.
- Stop putting in code explicitly to thwart scripts. It doesn't work. It's wasted effort. It just makes it so everyone moves to lich or genie and scripts more.
- Allow a non-crafting training method. There's no reason to bottleneck crafts behind specific geographies. It can be less efficient, but it doesn't have to be prohibitively slow.
- Remove the seasonal change for sigils.

Workorders:
- Completely remove the system, and instead let people hand the master a master-crafted item. Marked items give you prestige. Unmarked items do not.
- Maker marks just have to be crafted by the individual using them, with the right technique. No work order limit. You need a certain rank requirement to buy the pattern, but it's incredibly easy to make (50 forging or less).


Now you open up the system to those who don't want to spend more time and effort with this system than their real-life jobs, you still leave in complexity, but you don't have to go into test to see if you can do something because of the dozens of variables determining the output. It's a very static option.



* This is understanding that MTX is a requirement, and selling us many different tools were likely one of the bigger goals.

SHIFT3, respectfully, summaries are easier to read than big lists. I would have still gotten your point. :)

The beauty of the crafting system is that anyone can easily accomplish "make a thing," but there are many layers of complexity beyond that, which offer their own rewards as you progress in the learning process. Yes, including all the stuff you listed. The vast majority of those things are not things your average noob needs to learn about, except maybe workability eventually if they are doing work orders. But you can still learn without work orders.

It's exactly the kind of design I love: offers something for everyone at entry level, but rich with complexity by the end.

>>Tools & Secondary Resources: More than 70!

I agree that there are an awful lot of tools and wish they could be bundled into toolboxes or something. That said, the vast majority of people are not training all 5 crafts.

>>Do you remember the discussion about removing attack? Enough players hated replacing one command with 20 that they coded in a work-around to keep it.

I would have no problem if the GMs implemented an "attack" for crafting, as long as the end product suffered a little (much like how ATTACK works in combat). Would this be enough to solve people's problems? If so I would make that very clear to the GMs.

>>MTX purchases will frequently give you rewards on par with what the best crafters can craft, with none of the hassle, because what else are they going to sell it?

This is an entirely different problem, one that I agree kinda sucks. There needs to be a better niche for high-end crafters than "Oh yeah, I guess I can make my secondary weapons haralun."


- Navesi

The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald

>>> The beauty of the crafting system is that anyone can easily accomplish "make a thing,"

>You really can't though. Assume you buy a character and haven't put in the 10,000 hours training to make the thing. You have the syntax game to play.

This is where we disagree. Not only are there instructions in the crafting books, but there are detailed guides on the wiki, and ANALYZE provides clues.

Also, it's not relevant to the argument whether a character is bought as the process remains essentially the same, excepting maybe the workability issue for work orders and playing around to see what level teaches. But even so, we should never design around bought characters.

>>From a training perspective, there are three big problems to solve:

>>1. Obscene number of tools and consumables.

As I said, there aren't that many in practice because most people do not train all the crafts. I'd guess the great majority train 0-1, maybe 2.

>>2. Ridiculously slow to train.

This is a separate problem and one I agree with.

>>3. Obnoxious syntax puzzles.

My suggestion is to sell a "toolkit" and use the "attack" command with the toolkit. You automatically use the right tool, but at a cost to end quality/time taken. Although I still argue that the crafting book foreword, wiki, and ANALYZE make syntax fairly easy.

>>4. Poor returns.

In my experience, if done right, work orders pay very decently, so not sure what you're seeing wrong here. But I haven't played with all the disciplines, so maybe some could use a bump?

>>I've come to accept that this is one that won't be solved.

They could solve the lack of high-end crafting niche by making the next wave of cool weapons/thingamabobs require a PC crafter for one piece of the product at least. I don't know if they'll ever do it but it's what I'd like to see.


- Navesi

The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald

Except that is how every other crafting profession works. There is no need for rare finds or anywhere near the same level of hunting just for work order material.

I don't need tyrium or senci for work orders.

Same thing should be true with enchanting. Store bought sigils should be lower quality, sure, but they should be available.

If you want higher quality ones for items to be sold, you go hunting.

I just want a low quality sigil available for all possible sigils. It would also give a baseline for testing crafting ability.

> They can sometimes reach levels akin to kertig or haralun, but you should never need precision this high for training.

I'm not aware of any "silver" equivalent to sigils. You don't boost WO payouts that way. You can craft an engineering product which you use as a base to do fairly well, but if you're doing that then just do engineering work orders which already pay well above what you're going to see in enchanting.

And I really don't think you're seeing "kertig" or "haralun" quality with sigils. The best I've seen from someone who farms all day with decently high skills is a sigil with precision in the upper 70s. That's not even bronze (80 hardness), let alone the 95 you'd see with kertig or haralun, or the 99 you'd see with tyrium.

>>And I really don't think you're seeing "kertig" or "haralun" quality with sigils. The best I've seen from someone who farms all day with decently high skills is a sigil with precision in the upper 70s. That's not even bronze (80 hardness), let alone the 95 you'd see with kertig or haralun, or the 99 you'd see with tyrium.

The numbers for sigils, as I understand it, are not directly comparable to metal numbers. 70+ is what I would put in the kertig/haralun range. Lower numbers would put you in the silver range.

>>Tier 10. Tier 9 has Lay Ward Runestone (Rarefaction/Induction).

Sorry, you're right. I meant to say post-Tier 9.


- Navesi

The First Land Herald -- Zoluren's newspaper. https://elanthipedia.play.net/The_First_Land_Herald

My point was more along the lines of.. the other professions don't require anywhere near the same expenditure of time just to gather the resources for work order requests. You don't have to hunt and hope to find tyrium in the wild to be able to craft a long sword. It will just improve the end result if you spend that extra time to gather the better materials.

You can simply go buy common material from the society store. You can make pretty much anything, though of far inferior quality, with materials available in the society hall.

And partly that is just a difference in the way they were designed.

Seems like a small request that lines enchanting up with all the other crafting skills. (and would require only a relatively tiny distraction from other projects... it is just updating the store to offer more products)