I just failed to mastercraft a vardite imperial plate with 1750 effective forging, mastercrafted tools in full repair, mastercrafted oil, and the corresponding techniques. The vardite was 99 quality.
The quality drop happened when I added the leather backing, which can not be crafted. I could not recover the 2 points of quality lost, and the 97/99 quality plate is a full 1 absorb less in all absorbs.
... seriously? So my one shot at this created basically HCS full plate. Thanks. I'll never buy MC mats/recipes again.
BRHODES
SHIFT3
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/28/2019 07:36 PM CDT
You are absolutely correct. Crafting is tuned way too high.
That said, there needs to be a way to convert crafted products into 100% of the components used. Maybe limit it to the 15 minutes after the product was crafted because they don't want you to melt down older equipment. Maybe only let the craft be converted by the owner too, but any product should have a redo button for situations just like this.
DAKRE
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/28/2019 08:51 PM CDT
Yes it can be pretty punishing. What i do know is they said they plan to make a lot more things craftable, after they finish up the missing crafting areas (if i recall correctly). Because i mentioned there are multiple tools and materials that cannot be crafted, and they said that was on their to do list.
my suggestion is to always try out a craft like that on the test server, so you can make sure if you'll succeed before something happening like that. Even if you know that, i say that to inform others too.
my suggestion is to always try out a craft like that on the test server, so you can make sure if you'll succeed before something happening like that. Even if you know that, i say that to inform others too.
SHIFT3
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/29/2019 08:50 AM CDT
> my suggestion is to always try out a craft like that on the test server, so you can make sure if you'll succeed before something happening like that.
This is a given, but aren't there random rolls which can cause you to fail something in live that you succeeded to craft test?
If were were to compare this to combat, it would be like a having a bad roll permanently and irreparably lower the stats on your weapon or armor. The only way to repair it is to throw it away and get a new piece. That's too much for materials which can cost tens of RL dollars to buy, especially when you have effectively capped the natural skill gain.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/29/2019 02:09 PM CDT
>>This is a given, but aren't there random rolls which can cause you to fail something in live that you succeeded to craft test?
The only RNG I've experienced in crafting are (1) which "challenges" you have to face and (2) roundtimes. I've never randomly failed a "turn X with tongs," etc. This makes the only real RNG-risk "what if I have to use the X tool and it isn't masterful."
All that said, it would be nice if there was a way to "recraft" something to a higher quality. So you wouldn't really be bringing something down to its base parts, but trying to make X again using X. This is kinda like how you can fail to temper/balance something but you can always try again when you're more skilled (or have someone else do it).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The only RNG I've experienced in crafting are (1) which "challenges" you have to face and (2) roundtimes. I've never randomly failed a "turn X with tongs," etc. This makes the only real RNG-risk "what if I have to use the X tool and it isn't masterful."
All that said, it would be nice if there was a way to "recraft" something to a higher quality. So you wouldn't really be bringing something down to its base parts, but trying to make X again using X. This is kinda like how you can fail to temper/balance something but you can always try again when you're more skilled (or have someone else do it).
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
CJDIRAC
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/29/2019 04:39 PM CDT
> All that said, it would be nice if there was a way to "recraft" something to a higher quality
This. If it's not master-crafted it's relatively worthless, so it would be nice to see a system that allows us to raise the quality.
Even having multiple crafters lend their assistance/expertise would make sense.
SHIFT3
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/29/2019 04:43 PM CDT
> This. If it's not master-crafted it's relatively worthless, so it would be nice to see a system that allows us to raise the quality.
One more vote for this.
BRHODES
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/29/2019 05:40 PM CDT
So I was wrong, I recrafted the item and it actually went up 2 whole points in absorbs.
The difference between 97 and 99 quality is the difference of 15 and 17 absorbs. Seriously. If it ain't MC, it's trash. Like... this is plate armor we're talking about here, not the Mona Lisa. Again, this was caused not from my own lack of skill or faulty tools, but the non-existence of 99 quality leather backing to apply to the recipe.
Are you kidding me right now? Hundreds of dollars down the drain because a recipe for backing doesn't exist, and they didn't want us to have 99 quality storebought in the meantime. Awesome.
The difference between 97 and 99 quality is the difference of 15 and 17 absorbs. Seriously. If it ain't MC, it's trash. Like... this is plate armor we're talking about here, not the Mona Lisa. Again, this was caused not from my own lack of skill or faulty tools, but the non-existence of 99 quality leather backing to apply to the recipe.
Are you kidding me right now? Hundreds of dollars down the drain because a recipe for backing doesn't exist, and they didn't want us to have 99 quality storebought in the meantime. Awesome.
DAKRE
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/30/2019 04:44 AM CDT
The only thing i haven't tested is how much the new crafting assist helps. i would say, that system may be the best way to overcome issues like that, where you have 1 or more crafters assisting. it gives a bonus, BUT that doesn't mean it'd work. i'm just curious if that would be a good use of the system.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
04/30/2019 09:45 PM CDT
>>The difference between 97 and 99 quality is the difference of 15 and 17 absorbs.
That should be impossible given the math involved. The value ranges and percentages would never let it happen. If you think it is happening please assist and tell the responding GM/GH to send me a copy of the item in question so I can check it. The two pieces I made at 99 and 97 differed only in protection based on the appraisals below.
>> Not Mastercrafting it
I'd certainly encourage folks to test using (in this case) Brass and a Laminar Hauberk, to see how they'd fare. Pick a metal of about the same workability and template of the same difficulty and see how you do before making the big investment.
In this case though I'm not really sure what went wrong. If you know the armorsmithing technique and had 1750 ranks, and capped tools, you'd have been exceeding 110% success for every action. After adding the first large backing you'd be at 109% success. And after the next 2 backing you'd be at 108%. And this is without a career or the ingredient-boosting technique - both of which would have bumped the success back up over 110%. Any chance you could send me a log to see if you missed something?
I agree that a way to recover the mats immediately after crafting would be a good QoL improvement and something we should look into. Or an item that allows an improvement in quality by up to 5 points.
Here's my results of forging per your instructions:
99 Quality -
G>appr plate careful
The Imperial plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose overwhelming maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
extreme protection and incredible damage absorption for puncture attacks.
extreme protection and incredible damage absorption for slice attacks.
very great protection and incredible damage absorption for impact attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be rather hindered and your stealth to be very hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is highly protected against damage, and are in pristine condition.
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a quality of 99, placing it at 'extremely pure' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a hardness of 88, placing it at 'very hard' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a durability of 75, placing it at 'good durability' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a workability of 45, placing it at 'somewhat challenging to work with' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an electrical resistance of 80, placing it at 'a poor conductor of electricity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a thermal resistance of 45, placing it at 'very good at transferring heat and cold' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a physical resistance of 99, placing it at 'incredibly good at repelling physical blows' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a ductility of 30, placing it at 'somewhat ductile' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an enchantment capacity of 4, placing it at 'no capacity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1098 stones.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is worth exactly 3960000 Lirums.
97 Quality -
G>appr plate careful
The Imperial plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose overwhelming maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
very great protection and incredible damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very great protection and incredible damage absorption for slice attacks.
great protection and incredible damage absorption for impact attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be very hindered and your stealth to be very hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is quite guarded against damage, and are in pristine condition.
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a quality of 99, placing it at 'extremely pure' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a hardness of 88, placing it at 'very hard' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a durability of 75, placing it at 'good durability' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a workability of 45, placing it at 'somewhat challenging to work with' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an electrical resistance of 80, placing it at 'a poor conductor of electricity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a thermal resistance of 45, placing it at 'very good at transferring heat and cold' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a physical resistance of 99, placing it at 'incredibly good at repelling physical blows' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a ductility of 30, placing it at 'somewhat ductile' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an enchantment capacity of 4, placing it at 'no capacity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1098 stones.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is worth exactly 3880000 Lirums.
Looking at the numbers, 97 quality appears to have the same stats as Tyrium.
Please let me know if this makes sense.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
That should be impossible given the math involved. The value ranges and percentages would never let it happen. If you think it is happening please assist and tell the responding GM/GH to send me a copy of the item in question so I can check it. The two pieces I made at 99 and 97 differed only in protection based on the appraisals below.
>> Not Mastercrafting it
I'd certainly encourage folks to test using (in this case) Brass and a Laminar Hauberk, to see how they'd fare. Pick a metal of about the same workability and template of the same difficulty and see how you do before making the big investment.
In this case though I'm not really sure what went wrong. If you know the armorsmithing technique and had 1750 ranks, and capped tools, you'd have been exceeding 110% success for every action. After adding the first large backing you'd be at 109% success. And after the next 2 backing you'd be at 108%. And this is without a career or the ingredient-boosting technique - both of which would have bumped the success back up over 110%. Any chance you could send me a log to see if you missed something?
I agree that a way to recover the mats immediately after crafting would be a good QoL improvement and something we should look into. Or an item that allows an improvement in quality by up to 5 points.
Here's my results of forging per your instructions:
99 Quality -
G>appr plate careful
The Imperial plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose overwhelming maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
extreme protection and incredible damage absorption for puncture attacks.
extreme protection and incredible damage absorption for slice attacks.
very great protection and incredible damage absorption for impact attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be rather hindered and your stealth to be very hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is highly protected against damage, and are in pristine condition.
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a quality of 99, placing it at 'extremely pure' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a hardness of 88, placing it at 'very hard' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a durability of 75, placing it at 'good durability' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a workability of 45, placing it at 'somewhat challenging to work with' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an electrical resistance of 80, placing it at 'a poor conductor of electricity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a thermal resistance of 45, placing it at 'very good at transferring heat and cold' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a physical resistance of 99, placing it at 'incredibly good at repelling physical blows' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a ductility of 30, placing it at 'somewhat ductile' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an enchantment capacity of 4, placing it at 'no capacity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1098 stones.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is worth exactly 3960000 Lirums.
97 Quality -
G>appr plate careful
The Imperial plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose overwhelming maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
very great protection and incredible damage absorption for puncture attacks.
very great protection and incredible damage absorption for slice attacks.
great protection and incredible damage absorption for impact attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for fire attacks.
good protection and good damage absorption for cold attacks.
high protection and very great damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be very hindered and your stealth to be very hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is quite guarded against damage, and are in pristine condition.
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a quality of 99, placing it at 'extremely pure' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a hardness of 88, placing it at 'very hard' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a durability of 75, placing it at 'good durability' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a workability of 45, placing it at 'somewhat challenging to work with' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an electrical resistance of 80, placing it at 'a poor conductor of electricity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a thermal resistance of 45, placing it at 'very good at transferring heat and cold' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a physical resistance of 99, placing it at 'incredibly good at repelling physical blows' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has a ductility of 30, placing it at 'somewhat ductile' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the metal in the Imperial plate has an enchantment capacity of 4, placing it at 'no capacity' on the official Trader's Scale.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1098 stones.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is worth exactly 3880000 Lirums.
Looking at the numbers, 97 quality appears to have the same stats as Tyrium.
Please let me know if this makes sense.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
BRHODES
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
05/04/2019 10:50 AM CDT
It wasn't the difference of 2, but it was the difference of 1. I thought it was 17 because the first app I looked at had the old appraisal subs. Anyway, no, they are NOT the same appraisals. 97 quality below:
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose insane (8/8) maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
extreme (11/15) protection and incredible (15/17) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
extreme (11/15) protection and incredible (15/17) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very great (10/15) protection and incredible (15/17) damage absorption for impact attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for fire attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for cold attacks.
high (7/15) protection and very great (12/17) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be extremely (12/14) hindered and your stealth to be extremely (12/14) hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is nearly impervious to damage (17/18), and are in pristine condition (99-100%).
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1524 stones.
You don't think the Imperial plate is worth anything.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
99 quality next:
The Imperial plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose insane (8/8) maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
extreme (11/15) protection and amazing (16/17) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
extreme (11/15) protection and amazing (16/17) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very great (10/15) protection and amazing (16/17) damage absorption for impact attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for fire attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for cold attacks.
high (7/15) protection and very great (12/17) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be extremely (12/14) hindered and your stealth to be extremely (12/14) hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is highly protected against damage (13/18), and are in pristine condition (99-100%).
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1270 stones.
You think it is likely that the Imperial plate is worth about 2928974 Dokoras.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
I don't know what you made yours out of, but mine was vardite. If you used tyrium, that small bit less density is probably why it didn't reach 16/17.
I looked over the logs and have had others look over the logs as well and I didn't miss anything. I repaired all of my tools beforehand, had the techs, and didn't miss any complications. I melted down the 97 quality one, and went over to the test server and made the exact same thing mastercrafted. Confused, I went back to prime, and crafted it again without any issue. I have no idea what went wrong. I'm certain I used the same tools, and the conditions were the same.
Either way, though, the fact of the matter is that 97/99 does result in a huge drop in performance -- and this is not an isolated incident. You can't really make the same thing with a similar workability metal when you're talking about single use recipes with the exception of the test server. I did that, though, and it came out fine. I still have no idea what went wrong. I've messed up other recipes making the very first action without swapping techniques first and been unable to recover doing the rest of the recipe with the techniques, but that was not a mistake I made this time.
Since I melted down the item to re-make the item, it's not really an option to give it to you for analysis. Ultimately this just wound up being $50 down the pipe because the RNG didn't like me I guess.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose insane (8/8) maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
extreme (11/15) protection and incredible (15/17) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
extreme (11/15) protection and incredible (15/17) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very great (10/15) protection and incredible (15/17) damage absorption for impact attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for fire attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for cold attacks.
high (7/15) protection and very great (12/17) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be extremely (12/14) hindered and your stealth to be extremely (12/14) hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is nearly impervious to damage (17/18), and are in pristine condition (99-100%).
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1524 stones.
You don't think the Imperial plate is worth anything.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
99 quality next:
The Imperial plate is plate armor.
The plate looks like it offers protection for the following areas:
right arm
left arm
right leg
left leg
chest
abdomen
back
You feel certain that some vardite Imperial plate appears to impose insane (8/8) maneuvering hindrance and insane stealth hindrance, offering:
extreme (11/15) protection and amazing (16/17) damage absorption for puncture attacks.
extreme (11/15) protection and amazing (16/17) damage absorption for slice attacks.
very great (10/15) protection and amazing (16/17) damage absorption for impact attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for fire attacks.
good (5/15) protection and good (7/17) damage absorption for cold attacks.
high (7/15) protection and very great (12/17) damage absorption for electrical attacks.
If you were only wearing some vardite Imperial plate you could expect your maneuvering to be extremely (12/14) hindered and your stealth to be extremely (12/14) hindered.
You are certain that the Imperial plate is highly protected against damage (13/18), and are in pristine condition (99-100%).
The Imperial plate is made with metal.
You are certain that the Imperial plate weighs exactly 1270 stones.
You think it is likely that the Imperial plate is worth about 2928974 Dokoras.
Roundtime: 5 seconds.
I don't know what you made yours out of, but mine was vardite. If you used tyrium, that small bit less density is probably why it didn't reach 16/17.
I looked over the logs and have had others look over the logs as well and I didn't miss anything. I repaired all of my tools beforehand, had the techs, and didn't miss any complications. I melted down the 97 quality one, and went over to the test server and made the exact same thing mastercrafted. Confused, I went back to prime, and crafted it again without any issue. I have no idea what went wrong. I'm certain I used the same tools, and the conditions were the same.
Either way, though, the fact of the matter is that 97/99 does result in a huge drop in performance -- and this is not an isolated incident. You can't really make the same thing with a similar workability metal when you're talking about single use recipes with the exception of the test server. I did that, though, and it came out fine. I still have no idea what went wrong. I've messed up other recipes making the very first action without swapping techniques first and been unable to recover doing the rest of the recipe with the techniques, but that was not a mistake I made this time.
Since I melted down the item to re-make the item, it's not really an option to give it to you for analysis. Ultimately this just wound up being $50 down the pipe because the RNG didn't like me I guess.
BRHODES
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
05/04/2019 10:54 AM CDT
I see now that you DID use vardite, so it just must not have been max density. Sorry for the double post.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Crafting is too unforgiving.
05/04/2019 08:21 PM CDT
There is no RND in crafting success checks. Only with what events you are asked to handle.
And I didn't realize you made max-weight vardite but that explains the slightly different stats.
Could you send me your logs? Would be interested to see if I notice anything with them.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
And I didn't realize you made max-weight vardite but that explains the slightly different stats.
Could you send me your logs? Would be interested to see if I notice anything with them.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
