>>That's because you're an outsider.

You know you sound a bit wacky when you make an appeal to authority like this, right? It's a fictional reality. We're all outsiders. It's not like plopping a character on the island makes you some kind of savant of Rissan politics.

>>Actions have consequences applies just as equally to the people on M'Riss who aren't part of the families.

You keep saying this, but forgetting that you have no authority in M'Riss. I mean, feel free to keep saying it, but Rissian government isn't as egalitarian as you think it is if you believe you can personally start making up local policy.

---

"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

Could be a pretty interesting event if the ruling Kresh GMPCs came out to discuss the issues with the people. While I doubt they'd care for bloodshed on the islands which might draw attention, I also doubt they'd appreciate their citizens being treated poorly in Theren either. Or they could have a completely different POV. It'd be interesting to see.

-=Issus=-

>>I also doubt they'd appreciate their citizens being treated poorly in Theren either

I'm not entirely certain that they'd want to take ownership of the people who are getting deported. I can't exactly see big bad mafia don going "hey, watch it, that's our Necromancer/Necromancer ally/random sociopath."

---

"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

<<Good post, Madigan. I think part of the perceived issue is that proTheren RP certainly isn't for everyone, which is fine, but when Theren is really the only active RP hub left in the game it kind of forces people to figure out someway to interact with it because there's very little else to interact with.

Ohh, I get that 100% and let me tell you that if I were playing I would head to Theren one way or the other (good guy or bad guy). Which, is really an affirmation of the good job Q is doing in my mind. There are tons of people that desire GM help for RP in their provinces and I hope at some point that can happen for everyone.

You know, I hope this spurs some RP in Qi and allows a good GM to start up some stuff. Frankly, a rift between Qi and Theren makes more sense that the luke-warm rift between Ilithi and Theren.

For me, as long as it doesn't impact a playability thing on my end (i.e. I just can't train in dillos) then really I don't care.

Madigan

>>Mer'kresh citizens being treated poorly in Theren.

Are people flat out being treated poorly for no cause, or are people attacking citizens/breaking laws/performing sorcery/necromancy in Theren and being kicked out because of it?

__
You hear the voice of Jaedren exclaim, "Look! I'm Leilond!"
You notice Jaedren come out of hiding.
Jaedren shimmers out of sight.

The points about the nature of the Risssn government have already been made for me so I will not revisit them.


The facts are and have been stated more than once are as follows. The islanders coming to Therengia are there to break the law. No one is picking on poor innocents who have done nothing to merit it. So why would the Rissan government care how necromancers and criminals are treated there? Therengians who go to the islands to hunt on the other hand, are there as law abiding visitors helping to reduce the vicious critter population and contribute to the economy with coin exchange and sales of pelts and gems. So why would the Rissan government allow them to be harrassed there?

The two governments have not been at odds before and really there is nothing going on that would cause it now. Any small issues like deporting criminals to Poke beach could be resolved diplomatically with out armies marching tomorrow.

And again please remember mutual respect in future posts on this topic.


GM Quarel Veryan - Events Team/P-2 Events.

>> Ohh, I am sure there are instances of Q pulling the trigger too fast

Seem to be a lot of those instances. It's bothering I and my crew to the point that we're just gonna come in guns blazing and save the talk for the 30 second window between the last body falling and the ninja pirate bounty hunters coming to ship us away. Not to mention that it is completely ineffective at what it sets out to do(set a beam on Ratha, wait for the schooner to arrive, gate, run back up). All it really does is frustrates the player, and let's face it: few people come to Theren from Qi looking to fight that don't have quick transportation to-and-fro. Its almost a pre-requisite with the absurd amount of deportations that take place. I've always expected a certain level of respect to go along with those kind of affairs and it's very disrespectful to my PC and cohorts to not get that.

Now, I'm not saying that GM interventions are always un-necessary. The Latathi-rage at the bin was a good example(considering defender vs attacker strength) of a situation where things went from 0 to 180 in the blink of an eye and could've used some mediation. But when the core crux issue is just talking on the gweth, I don't see why deportation should (almost) ever be an option.

In my opinion, hlc GMNPCs are always the better option. I'd rather get curb-stomped by one and be able to say my piece/make some rp/develop my character, than be deported and develop workaround strategies like 'shoot first, ask questions later' to curb my frustrations with lopsided mechanics. Not just that, but it gives the GMs a chance to play the game(assuming they play semi-fairly) they love to play and not be side-lined by god-mode.

Just my 2 cents.

---

IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

And lo, the true price of Therengian role-play is brought bare.

When a sizable portion of Riss's inhabitants are in agreement that Theren is stepping over the line, what will the goverment do to quell its people? Are they really going to side with the minority and go against their own citizens? That doesn't sound very pirate-esque to me. Its almost completely lawless anyways, and to top that, a good portion of its inhabitants are also Theren exiles. lol @ Riss voting empire over anarchy. That'll be the day.

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IM: Dannyboy00001111

"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."

<<Are they really going to side with the minority and go against their own citizens?>>

If it's in their best interests? Absolutely.

GM Jaedren
P1-P5 Events Guy

>>And a Therengian agent spying on people and assassinating them? What's that, Quarel? Water under the bridge?

If you moved that goalpost any faster, I'd have to ask a Board Monitor to penalize you for giving me whiplash.

>>That doesn't sound very pirate-esque to me.

I personally wouldn't equate Rissan pirates with "capital B Bad-guy pirates." Sure, you can look at the place as DR's version of the mob, but that doesn't mean they're cool with Necromancers trying to cause chaos in other provinces. Hell, if other provinces shut down due to those kinds of attacks, either because they enter a military lockdown or Traders just give up with commerce there, I'm not very sure it will be fiscally awesome for the people who like skimming off the top and/or obtaining the goods that fell off the back of the caravan.

---

"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

Ahh, I thought you got the boot a bit later Gort. Thanks for the log. Yeah, that was pretty quick and didn't look all that good after you winning a round frankly.

<<[Where ya'll jumped us at the ropes]

Hah! I was a bit surprised Nef followed right after you. You got me in Crossing after however. Well played.

Tsaru: Yeah, I think Q tries to keep it fair. None of us are perfect, but I'll take an active GM that tried hard to playing in an area with no GM stuff.

P.S. You are the most frustrating (in a good way) player to fight. I can't seem to get you ever. +1

Madigan

If you really have something constructive to add please do. But if the bashing continues the thread will be closed. I could sit here and list out the actual number of times I hit the so called deport button ( less than you think) but Jaedren is correct there will be players who don't or won't believe me. As for bringing in GMPCs I don't GMPC on demand, for anyone. And when I do bring them in not every occasion should be oh look GMPC with a title kill it. That is very thin RP IMO.


There is no way to please every one all the time it's not possible. But if team bad could show restraint and know when enough is enough , I could keep my finger off the button and maybe every one involved could have a better time.



GM Quarel Veryan Events Team /P-2 Events.

I think it'd be awesome to see a counter to the Team Goodguy Theren crew. Not necessarily something nefarious, but more something for those who do play sociopaths (or generally disagreeable) types. If not an official government, then an unofficial organization. Not for any kind of direct conflict with Theren, though that wouldn't be out of the question, but more for an organized source of roleplay.

For instance, the Kresh authorities decide to up their shady dealings. After strictly informing Captain Plunderpants that they will disavow any knowledge of his actions, they send him on his way to recruit. He recruits the sort that Theren doesn't. No bowing and scraping, no interference from the proper types, just a might makes right group of pirates/plunderers sent to disrupt things as the Kresh families want. Theren gets invaded by Orcs and such a lot. Well, instead you could let the raiders attack Riverhaven. Populate it with mobs called "A riverhaven citizen" as "invasion" creatures and let the raiders run wild. Killing a citizen causes SO.

Basically, Theren has their rallying point (Quaral run events, RP, history, etc.) and I'd love to see a counter to that emerge that wasn't another court system. I like the idea of basing it in the islands cause I figure the history there supports it well.

-=Issus=-

I'm not usually too active on these sorts of conversations, but I thought I'd put in my own unique view. Personally, I don't like the situation in Theren.

I am not a PvP person. I don't have an issue with people who are, and I try to avoid conflicts ICly, not just hiding behind Closed and taunting that you can't kill me. I haven't reported over a PvP situation in 15 years.

However, in Theren, I find that this is an awkward situation. There is a list of people who know that they can stir up trouble just by being there, and a group of the RPers who are under the imperative to get rid of them. I would think thrice about holding any event in Therengia because there is no way to just keep the situation calm. If someone troublesome decides to show up, they will get their trouble, and if I don't want to deal with it and want it to go elsewhere, I'm persona non grata myself. But okay, I'll avoid Therengia for any greater involvement. I have that choice.

But let's not turn the whole game into this. I am glad that it is only this one province this needs to be considered in. On an individual basis, sure, do what you want, RP out the 'consequences' when the fervent Therengians come across the troublemakers on other turf, as long as everyone is following the rules, consent and profiles. But this is quite different from another location with a political culture of bans. And the GMs -have- seemed to design the political culture on the islands to be 'You stay out of my stuff, and I'll stay out of yours.'

And I don't think that it is a matter of Therengians getting what they deserve by getting trouble outside of Therengia. Those troublemakes who show up in Theren are looking for trouble. That's why they get banned. They want trouble and they get trouble. They get drama. Great, I'm glad they're happy. But because that was want they wanted, they now want to inflict that on others? Yes, I realise it's more trouble, and they like more trouble, but the GMs have to balance things to everyone's different tastes. Those who want to play troublemakers who go in and bother the good guys have a GM supported climate where they can do that (as long as they don't take it too far). And those who want to play those who are devoted to their homeland and defend it have someone to defend it against, and a place for this type of RP. This doesn't mean they also want the going to troublemake type of RP themselves, and if they aren't troublemaking, that's all well and good. I don't see where there's some unfair inequity against people doing things and not getting their just desserts.

I think it may also be worth noting that I don't think any Rissans are invading Therengia because they are Rissans. And I doubt everyone invading Theren is a Rissan (except in that most of them probably hunt there as high level characters don't have a lot of other options). They start problems in Theren, because they get reactions in Theren.

But I'm really just an outsider to both locations who likes the idea of somewhere where I don't have to deal with the drama, even if it is The Isle of the Damned (Ok, so I'm a S'kra, not going there.). I like neutral and self-serving as a political concept.

Tsarenzi

<<As for the incident everyone seems to be using as an excuse to attack Therengians on the islands, Ogdao was no innocent picking dasies and oh the chamberlain sent someone to murder him. He attacked the heir presumptive to the throne and the chamberlain who is no paladin wanted a message sent. This was not an attack on the citizens or government of the islands so it was hardly an act of war no matter how badly you want it to be. And I think Ogdaro can take. Are of himself and fight his own fights just fine and then some.

Except for the part where it is. Coenrad is a known agent of Therengia. He murdered someone on Rissan soil.

Did Gyfford pay a blood price? Isleif? Coenrad? No.

Realistically, M'Riss should be extremely unhappy with Gyfford. Because there is no GM with any investment in Rissan RP we have a situation where Therengia gets away with it.

<<Realistically, M'Riss should be extremely unhappy with Gyfford. Because there is no GM with any investment in Rissan RP we have a situation where Therengia gets away with it.>>

Realistically, (assuming we're talking about the Ogdaro incident), Ogdaro would have been chum before anyone from Therengia knew to look for him on M'Riss. If you think ANY of the ruling bodies are going to shelter someone that outright assassinates another ruler... But we all know that we can't realistically make Ogdaro disappear. The fact that Therengia popped him on 'Rissan soil' could very well be a point of contention, but again, we're dealing with a Council that wouldn't outwardly say so. More likely would be back-door Trade sanctions or a few Therengian merchant vessels disappearing/being emptied of their cargo (all while blaming it on the Red Sash).

Ultimately, I don't give two pickled sausages the inter-personal wars you guys are waging. If it's enjoyable to both sides, swell. ALL of my comments are made with the intention of correcting or enlightening in regards to the history and lore.

GM Jaedren
P1-P5 Events Guy
(Also: Logical In-Game Lore Guy)

>>Did Gyfford pay a blood price? Isleif? Coenrad? No.

I'm not entirely certain that's a thing as opposed to something you're pulling out of the sky in order to validate your point.

>>Realistically, M'Riss should be extremely unhappy with Gyfford. Because there is no GM with any investment in Rissan RP we have a situation where Therengia gets away with it.

I don't know why you keep making these conclusions based on premises based on your own interpretation of how things should be politically.

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"You always have to be a know-it-all. And you don't. Know. It. All." - GERSTEINJ2

This discussion seems to be a confusion of the GMs aren't doing anything/the GMs are doing too much, and some odd blend of IC and OOC.

If this is about the GMs, take that to Feedback, it's the only appropriate place for that discussion.

If this discussion is about Qi events, then lets stick to Qi events. If it's a backwards way of discussion Theren events, take it to the Theren folder, just remember that the whole "Theren Sux" tangent's over.




Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.

<<I think it'd be awesome to see a counter to the Team Goodguy Theren crew. Not necessarily something nefarious, but more something for those who do play sociopaths (or generally disagreeable) types. If not an official government, then an unofficial organization. Not for any kind of direct conflict with Theren, though that wouldn't be out of the question, but more for an organized source of roleplay.>>

This is very much what we have been trying to build in Ilithi over the past year and a half or so, and I hope people continue to look to it as least a potential RP hook into a comparatively less overt way of RPing opposition to Theren with something deeper than "Hi, we're here to kill you." Speaking for Traim, the balance is that the more nefarious connections are generally made quietly and without fanfare, as they must be given the official political context. But they are there, and he is always open to ideas.

The underlying point several people have made ("Therengians must account for their actions even when they leave Theren") is well-taken, but it's also been correctly pointed out (in my opinion) that no standing political power (Rissan or otherwise) is going to side with a group of random renegades/necromancers over Theren. Not openly. I think it's completely within bounds for Jondong or whoever to respond to Therengians as they do outside of Theren, but it's something else entirely to speak for a province in the process. I'm probably not the best one to talk right there, but for all the back and forth between Traim and the Baron etc, I've known OOC and IC that the Tower could pop in at any time and fry Traim for going too far. Same thing holds for M'riss though; you don't want the Rissan council types popping out to jail you or exile you because you go too far over the top speaking for them too. Just have to play it a bit carefully.

This thread also highlights the current problem with the high level hunting exile. Because of the lack of provincial options, we're running into a conflict between what is really an OOC Riss/Kresh neutrality truce for the sake of playability and good RP (has to be consequences for your actions from other characters). Here's hoping that remedy comes through soon though.

Another point worth making is that all of the RP we're talking about only occurs because of the harsh and consistent stance that Theren has taken over time. On the balance, I think that's acted as a great catalyst for all sorts of fun drama and fighting and is a compliment to the job Quarel has done and continues to do. But I also wonder whether Theren's level of antagonism is itself entirely realistic sometimes. If you step back for a moment and imagine that Zoluren, Ilithi, and M'riss all had active GMPCs and governments in the same way Theren does, it is hard to imagine that events would unfold quite as they have. Given Coenrad violating borders in Ilithi and M'riss, Theren employing a caustic Court Advisor with very little concern for offending those outside Theren, alliance and marriage with the Outcasts (an invading army that massacred people everywhere), ally Koromas assassinating people in Crossing, and Viggu's unchecked traipses outside Theren into other provinces (which, being banned from Theren, I love!), it is difficult to believe that the Baron would not have some political pressure to step more softly at this point.

Imagine every province has a Gyfford. Then imagine how every province's Gyfford would respond to the above events/situations. Maybe they'd do nothing and we'd have status quo, but given the powerful personalities and egos involved at that level of politics/nobility, I'm inclined to think otherwise.

In any case, I think we get a lot of fun out of it and hopefully people roll with things without going all Vanmar.