Let me start by saying that the MAJORITY of the fights have been a blast, even blind and with out a tongue, I was genuinely enjoying a lot of the fights from this string of events. However I'm starting to feel like there are too many abused gimmicks in this, between the spirit attacks, the critical brain poison, the blinding, the tongue ripping... Even a majority of creatures I can fight evenly(even Xito to a very brief stalemate, which made me happy) can then turn around, use a trick and wreck my day.
This frustration culminated in dying three times in a row from spirit death, twice several rooms away from Xito after getting soul attrition(?) cast on me. I know the spell may be working as intended, but having a GMPC use it as first draw is just frustrating to the experience, he wasn't even really in trouble from my character.
Being a long time veteran of wars and the like, I'm not saying this is the first time win buttons have been used, just it seems they're being broken out right out of the gate here, not a last resort when the event demands the GMPC to survive, or when players who actually pose a threat are present.
Part of this is just venting, but I did want to try and offer constructive criticism as well, considering I got to a point where I considered just abandoning the fight as I would wind up having to flee blindly with critical poison within two minutes of fighting against things well within my skill range, and I really don't want to feel like I should stop participating in this otherwise great event!
In closing, and to summarize, I'm not really bothered by dying, especially in an invasion, and I didn't lose anything to make me bitter(thanks to everyone being awesome!), I just felt it was so cheaply done, that I was getting killed not by strong foes that I was engaging out of place, but by tricks and mechanics that feel broken with how and where they're being employed.
Thanks again to everyone, and the GMs for running a great event.
Cheers.
WOLVERINE911
DR-PERSIDA
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 02:59 PM CDT
If you're talking about the fight today in the Wicked Burrow Mine, the creatures that were in there were indeed extremely tough and not meant to be taken one on one at all, even by people who can appraise them as being within their difficulty level.
Thematically, this was not so much a traditional invasion as it was a group of subterranean creatures fighting those they felt were invading. It began with only one creature slaying those who he found poking around the mine (PCs mining) and threatening them about it being his territory. When the sudden rush of PCs came, most all very high level, a relatively small number (compared to the other invasions) of the worst of the worst were sent out to drive back the topside invaders. I realize this was an overwhelming fight in many respects, but that is precisely what it was intended to be.
As an aside, Soul Attrition is nothing more than a cleric spell, and it is being cast just as a player can, with all of the mechanics and restrictions that a player has in casting, effectiveness, and outcome. If something occurred today that seems at all out of the norm for that spell, please let us know so we can take a look at it and fix the issue asap.
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy this particular fight and that you felt the mechanics used were cheap. I hope you continue to find the event overall enjoyable despite this!
-Persida
Thematically, this was not so much a traditional invasion as it was a group of subterranean creatures fighting those they felt were invading. It began with only one creature slaying those who he found poking around the mine (PCs mining) and threatening them about it being his territory. When the sudden rush of PCs came, most all very high level, a relatively small number (compared to the other invasions) of the worst of the worst were sent out to drive back the topside invaders. I realize this was an overwhelming fight in many respects, but that is precisely what it was intended to be.
As an aside, Soul Attrition is nothing more than a cleric spell, and it is being cast just as a player can, with all of the mechanics and restrictions that a player has in casting, effectiveness, and outcome. If something occurred today that seems at all out of the norm for that spell, please let us know so we can take a look at it and fix the issue asap.
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy this particular fight and that you felt the mechanics used were cheap. I hope you continue to find the event overall enjoyable despite this!
-Persida
LHALLFIN
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 03:36 PM CDT
>I realize this was an overwhelming fight in many respects, but that is precisely what it was intended to be.
I think that's kind of the key to understand, not every fight can have the PCs easily dispatching everything.
But...
I'd just like to say I think making players un-rez-able is not interesting or fun in any way.
I'm not really even sure what exactly is causing it as I'm dying with 100% spirit, but then told by clerics "you're spirit dead" and have no option but to depart.
Sorry if that feedback is too unrelated to the original post, but to me that is a gimmick that feels like too much.
DR-PERSIDA
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 06:40 PM CDT
Nope, it seems very related, since what you're talking about is also the cleric spell Soul Attrition. You shouldn't be dying from it and still having 100% spirit at ALL, though, so possibly you died very fast because the spell outclassed you very much and that is causing it to appear that you died at full spirit health, the cleric was mistaken and you had not actually died a spirit death at all, or there may be some issue with the spell that needs to be corrected. Thank you for letting us know about that. We'll take a look.
It is, however, not a gimmick, but a cleric spell that is the exact same as the one available to PC clerics. It's not unavoidable at all, and I encourage anyone who is having problems with it to please talk to the other players about ways to protect yourself, as there are many.
-Persida
It is, however, not a gimmick, but a cleric spell that is the exact same as the one available to PC clerics. It's not unavoidable at all, and I encourage anyone who is having problems with it to please talk to the other players about ways to protect yourself, as there are many.
-Persida
POWERHAUS
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 07:12 PM CDT
AC for WMs, veil of ice, lay ward, and I think PFE all help
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
ANOUSHKA
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 07:16 PM CDT
> It is, however, not a gimmick, but a cleric spell that is the exact same as the one available to PC clerics. It's not unavoidable at all, and I encourage anyone who is having problems with it to please talk to the other players about ways to protect yourself, as there are many.
So, if one isn't a Cleric or a WM and has no way of forcing the Cleric out of the room, what are your options?
So, if one isn't a Cleric or a WM and has no way of forcing the Cleric out of the room, what are your options?
POWERHAUS
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 07:32 PM CDT
Any Mage should be able to cast lay ward for you. Just ask in triage for buffs n stuff, it might take a few minutes but should be worth it.
Soul shield might help too, but it seemed to fade fast when away from the cleric.
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
Soul shield might help too, but it seemed to fade fast when away from the cleric.
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
LHALLFIN
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 08:16 PM CDT
>Nope, it seems very related, since what you're talking about is also the cleric spell Soul Attrition. You shouldn't be dying from it and still having 100% spirit at ALL, though, so possibly you died very fast because the spell outclassed you very much and that is causing it to appear that you died at full spirit health, the cleric was mistaken and you had not actually died a spirit death at all, or there may be some issue with the spell that needs to be corrected. Thank you for letting us know about that. We'll take a look.
>It is, however, not a gimmick, but a cleric spell that is the exact same as the one available to PC clerics. It's not unavoidable at all, and I encourage anyone who is having problems with it to please talk to the other players about ways to protect yourself, as there are many.
Looking back at everything the main example I'm thinking of was from a totem pulse that destroyed my head.
As far as something outclassing me very much, I hunt in Cabalists and I have actually haven't taken any spirit damage in any of these invasions. I've seen the ghosts cast something on me, but I just resist it. If that's the SA spell. I'm not sure. Xitchrysanthemum (haha) did appear and attack me once, but his spell/attack thing just blew me out of the room with no real damage physical or otherwise (this was a different incident, and I don't think I ever did die in that particular invasion).
Back to the totem; two or three other bodies in the triage room, who I think died the same way, were also deemed "spirit dead" and not raise-able by the clerics.
The cleric(s) very well could of been mistaken, but there were multiple clerics and at least one of them checked twice, after I said to everyone "I didn't spirit die".
ORBITAL303
ROBERTDH
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 08:26 PM CDT
>So, if one isn't a Cleric or a WM and has no way of forcing the Cleric out of the room, what are your options?
Whatever you would do to deal with any other Death-from-above TM spell. Debuff their TM, ward against TM, buff your evasion (shield does nothing), soak the damage (spirit health is charisma + mentals... consequently people usually have terrible spirit health), kill the caster or flee.
Stunning or otherwise disabling the caster used to force the spell to go dormant for that pulse? I am unsure if that is still how it works.
Whatever you would do to deal with any other Death-from-above TM spell. Debuff their TM, ward against TM, buff your evasion (shield does nothing), soak the damage (spirit health is charisma + mentals... consequently people usually have terrible spirit health), kill the caster or flee.
Stunning or otherwise disabling the caster used to force the spell to go dormant for that pulse? I am unsure if that is still how it works.
NINEVAH1
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 09:16 PM CDT
While this really doesn't help against Xito, running to the nearest altar (or any holy ground) and dying there will tank a PC cleric's devotion. If you are going to die might as well make them pay for it. Recovering from a quick depart is far easier than having tanked devotion.
SHADOW7988
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 10:00 PM CDT
LHALLFIN,
I think some of the clerics are suggesting spirit deaths just when they are having a particularly hard time finding ones soul, which is essentially the same as one dying from spirit death (our soul died, it is gone from this plane, the gods can only or well some other things beyond can only help you with putting the body-soul bridge back together again).
I strongly advise many favors, there are spirit deaths, there are triage clerics who are attempting to rezz as well as they can but even with a good script, there are a lot of variables happening and I know I've been fatigued, after some of the longer triage cycles.
The scroll is tough, and I know the GMs are trying to keep things interesting but man the scroll can be demanding trying to keep up in a room chalk filled with all sorts of people.
For one I love the challenge
Two I want to stay the course, because I like finishing things off I started.
Three well, I want the practice to get better.
Four we all want to win right?
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
I think some of the clerics are suggesting spirit deaths just when they are having a particularly hard time finding ones soul, which is essentially the same as one dying from spirit death (our soul died, it is gone from this plane, the gods can only or well some other things beyond can only help you with putting the body-soul bridge back together again).
I strongly advise many favors, there are spirit deaths, there are triage clerics who are attempting to rezz as well as they can but even with a good script, there are a lot of variables happening and I know I've been fatigued, after some of the longer triage cycles.
The scroll is tough, and I know the GMs are trying to keep things interesting but man the scroll can be demanding trying to keep up in a room chalk filled with all sorts of people.
For one I love the challenge
Two I want to stay the course, because I like finishing things off I started.
Three well, I want the practice to get better.
Four we all want to win right?
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
BLUEFROG99
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 10:18 PM CDT
> I think some of the clerics are suggesting spirit deaths just when they are having a particularly hard time finding ones soul
I can't speak for every cleric, and you did say "some," but this is certainly not true in my case. And it's not likely for others, really, because who's going to pump a ton of mana in and THEN go, ehhh, guess I can't find you. I perceive every corpse that comes in and if it only has a couple minutes' worth of spirit, I judge it to be a spirit death. I haven't been wrong so far.
I can't speak for every cleric, and you did say "some," but this is certainly not true in my case. And it's not likely for others, really, because who's going to pump a ton of mana in and THEN go, ehhh, guess I can't find you. I perceive every corpse that comes in and if it only has a couple minutes' worth of spirit, I judge it to be a spirit death. I haven't been wrong so far.
LHALLFIN
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 10:41 PM CDT
Fair enough, sounds like my real issue might have to do more with the number of favors necessary for people near 200th circle to allow a relatively low circle cleric to find their soul or the difficulty it takes to raise someone in general (but keep in mind I know almost nothing about rezzing), or just straight up player error.
Last interesting note I'll add before I stop posting...
Your body will decay beyond its ability to hold your soul in 212 minutes.
BLUEFROG99
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/27/2013 11:24 PM CDT
That is a real issue, and no matter how many favors, it's hard for someone who hasn't had the Rezz spell long.
I've been recommending 1 favor for every 5 circles because that seems to be the best ratio from my point of view as the cleric, but I'm not sure if it's an exponential rate past 100th circle or so--I wouldn't mind having a very high circle corpse to test with! If you're 200th and have, e.g., 10 favors, then fix that problem and it'll help. My "rule" is obviously not a hard and fast one--just a guideline that I've found to work well.
SCHULTZS3
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/28/2013 03:15 AM CDT
>I've seen the ghosts cast something on me, but I just resist it. If that's the SA spell. I'm not sure.
Nah, ghosts are basically casting Chill Spirit.
>I've been recommending 1 favor for every 5 circles because that seems to be the best ratio from my point of view as the cleric, but I'm not sure if it's an exponential rate past 100th circle or so--I wouldn't mind having a very high circle corpse to test with! If you're 200th and have, e.g., 10 favors, then fix that problem and it'll help. My "rule" is obviously not a hard and fast one--just a guideline that I've found to work well.
My rule used to be flat 10 favors. Then it became 1 per 10 circles. Now that this has gone down, I've moved to 1 favor per 5 circles. Got all my characters to meet or exceed that after a few days of favor feeding.
But that's just me and what I'm doing.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
Nah, ghosts are basically casting Chill Spirit.
>I've been recommending 1 favor for every 5 circles because that seems to be the best ratio from my point of view as the cleric, but I'm not sure if it's an exponential rate past 100th circle or so--I wouldn't mind having a very high circle corpse to test with! If you're 200th and have, e.g., 10 favors, then fix that problem and it'll help. My "rule" is obviously not a hard and fast one--just a guideline that I've found to work well.
My rule used to be flat 10 favors. Then it became 1 per 10 circles. Now that this has gone down, I've moved to 1 favor per 5 circles. Got all my characters to meet or exceed that after a few days of favor feeding.
But that's just me and what I'm doing.
Kaeta Airtag
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
DR-PERSIDA
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/28/2013 06:15 AM CDT
I double checked on the totems just in case, and they absolutely do not do spirit damage in any way, shape, or form. I double checked everything else as well, and the only things damaging spirit are indeed cleric spells cast by certain types of the bad guys. Nothing is appearing off at all on any of the Spirit Manipulation spell attacks, as far as the mechanics go, so all of the applicable ways to avoid and/or stop the spirit drain remain in place and working correctly.
I'm inclined to agree with some of the posters here who have indicated that spirit deaths are very likely being over-diagnosed at times due to favor ratios making the dead people's souls kind of hard to track down.
-Persida
I'm inclined to agree with some of the posters here who have indicated that spirit deaths are very likely being over-diagnosed at times due to favor ratios making the dead people's souls kind of hard to track down.
-Persida
BLUEFROG99
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/28/2013 11:54 AM CDT
> I'm inclined to agree with some of the posters here who have indicated that spirit deaths are very likely being over-diagnosed at times due to favor ratios making the dead people's souls kind of hard to track down.
Again, not in my experience, and I triage frequently. There are so many critters out on the streets that are snap-casting Chill Spirit when someone walks around a corner. Even someone with quite good spirit health can die from several hits of that, and if there are several ghosts casting it suddenly, well, that's that. I've had Vigils on people so that I can cast Soul Shield on them as soon as I feel a drain, and I end up casting Soul Shield quite a lot.
For the first 2-3 invasions, I worked in triage alongside several other clerics, and every time they said it was a spirit death, I double-checked that myself and also saw only a couple minutes of spirit health remaining. None of us even tried to cast Rezz on them, for the most part. So it wasn't a matter of giving up because of a favor ratio most of the time. The one person I saw who insisted they died to totems and not spirit damage had so little health spirit health remaining that I put a Vigil on and infused Rezz a lot before giving up. (Incidentally, I'm almost out of kirmhiro.) All of the clerics I've seen during these invasions work triage regularly and are accustomed to the difficulty of favor ratios.
Not that we're obligated to raise you if you have a really abysmal ratio.
THELOST1
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/30/2013 08:41 PM CDT
<<While this really doesn't help against Xito, running to the nearest altar (or any holy ground) and dying there will tank a PC cleric's devotion. If you are going to die might as well make them pay for it. Recovering from a quick depart is far easier than having tanked devotion.>>
I am a Cleric so it's a post from that side of the fence, but am I the only one who thinks that's a bit... not right?
I am a Cleric so it's a post from that side of the fence, but am I the only one who thinks that's a bit... not right?
LIURIDR
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/30/2013 09:00 PM CDT
Honestly, I never understood why we could tank our devotion for killing on holy ground but there are no repercussions to anyone who kills a Cleric on holy ground.
That's not to say I don't understand why we could get tanked for killing there since we know better than to despoil consecrated ground.
That's not to say I don't understand why we could get tanked for killing there since we know better than to despoil consecrated ground.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/30/2013 11:19 PM CDT
>>there are no repercussions to anyone who kills a Cleric on holy ground.
Same reason why no one gets punished for striking a paladin first: you are held to a higher standard.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Same reason why no one gets punished for striking a paladin first: you are held to a higher standard.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/30/2013 11:28 PM CDT
Honestly it does seem silly that a cleric can cast a spell outside holy ground and then the target can run to holy ground an cause the devotion loss as if the cleric had intentionally killed them on holy ground. After all it isn't like the cleric had much to do with the fact that the person died on holy ground. To me, at least, it seems almost like mechanics abuse to run to an altar and die.
BLUEFROG99
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 02:08 AM CDT
The cleric has still intentionally killed them, however. They could release the SA to avoid the risk. One of those risks in fighting someone with free will.
ALMAZ
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 02:47 AM CDT
I wonder if a cleric gets a soul hit when they give someone a bleeding wound that turns fatal on consecrated ground, or if a similar event happens with naphtha. I'd be inclined to think those mechanics (or how those mechanics are "supposed" to work) should probably inform how Soul Attrition works.
That said, this is a little off-topic from an Invasion. . . and if you tried that versus Xito, I'm pretty sure you'd just feed him (and Dergati) even more.
---
"Tapeabarala asu chakapar oseane Gerenshuge sinuar sedea."
That said, this is a little off-topic from an Invasion. . . and if you tried that versus Xito, I'm pretty sure you'd just feed him (and Dergati) even more.
---
"Tapeabarala asu chakapar oseane Gerenshuge sinuar sedea."
LIURIDR
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 06:37 AM CDT
You can release Soul Attrition, but you can't uncreate bolts of holy death from Aesrela Everild.
POWERHAUS
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 08:32 AM CDT
>>I wonder if a cleric gets a soul hit when they give someone a bleeding wound that turns fatal on consecrated ground, or if a similar event happens with naphtha.
Nope, it has to be an actual damaging strike, either a weapon or magic. I've escaped the murder plenty of times back in the day using fire, and keeping them disabled while they burn. That's only for the pulse from blood loss or fire, I think if you were to throw naphtha at someone burning, and the explosion did vitality damage(does it still?) that might be get you accused.
There are some weird nuances, like when another WM could redirect your own Magnetic Ballista, or when we could cast ROS on another person - I'm pretty sure the accusation when to the caster, and not the person who appears to be doing the damage.
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
Nope, it has to be an actual damaging strike, either a weapon or magic. I've escaped the murder plenty of times back in the day using fire, and keeping them disabled while they burn. That's only for the pulse from blood loss or fire, I think if you were to throw naphtha at someone burning, and the explosion did vitality damage(does it still?) that might be get you accused.
There are some weird nuances, like when another WM could redirect your own Magnetic Ballista, or when we could cast ROS on another person - I'm pretty sure the accusation when to the caster, and not the person who appears to be doing the damage.
_________________________________
An agonizing pain fills you as you feel your tongue turn to powder in your mouth! Through a haze of uncertainty and loss, you realize that something you just said was very wrong.
THELOST1
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 11:14 AM CDT
<<Clerks holy ground stuff>>
It honestly sounds like mechanics abuse to me, but it's off topic. Maybe I'll ask in another folder for clarification.
It honestly sounds like mechanics abuse to me, but it's off topic. Maybe I'll ask in another folder for clarification.
NINEVAH1
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 11:31 AM CDT
>>It honestly sounds like mechanics abuse to me, but it's off topic. Maybe I'll ask in another folder for clarification.
Since it was a GM that gave this idea as a solution to deal with SA when 3.0 first came out, I'm going to have to say that this is not mech abuse. IMO since SA is such a win button if landed then it's fair play. I've done this myself against a much higher cleric and even though I died they no longer wanted to fight.
Considering the OPness of the cleric spell books I think it's a fair drawback.
Since it was a GM that gave this idea as a solution to deal with SA when 3.0 first came out, I'm going to have to say that this is not mech abuse. IMO since SA is such a win button if landed then it's fair play. I've done this myself against a much higher cleric and even though I died they no longer wanted to fight.
Considering the OPness of the cleric spell books I think it's a fair drawback.
THELOST1
CLERIXHAX
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 12:59 PM CDT
>Note to self, tackle runners?
Use Soul Bonding to prevent them from running.
Use Soul Bonding to prevent them from running.
ALMAZ
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 01:21 PM CDT
I forgot that Soul Bonding was an actual thing and so I just imagined the cleric speed-marrying the person and then using invoke bond to have them come sailing back.
I shouldn't read forums without coffee.
---
"Tapeabarala asu chakapar oseane Gerenshuge sinuar sedea."
I shouldn't read forums without coffee.
---
"Tapeabarala asu chakapar oseane Gerenshuge sinuar sedea."
ROBERTDH
Re: Too many gimmicks?
10/31/2013 03:03 PM CDT
>I forgot that Soul Bonding was an actual thing and so I just imagined the cleric speed-marrying the person and then using invoke bond to have them come sailing back.
Weaponized marriage sounds like a great future invasion gimmick.
Weaponized marriage sounds like a great future invasion gimmick.
