I seem to recall in the past that with some invasions, different level creatures were mostly limited to specific areas by using portals (ex: NE, N, and W gates of Crossing) and GMs running the invasion would nudge PCs who were slaughtering critters way below their ability to go to other spots to help out instead. But I agree also with the invasion should be dangerous element of not having (as much) of the equal flex mobs.

Also yay events and stuff.

LOCUTIS1 said:
>>With the player base being so condensed with a smaller population and even more so with social media like discord, plot narratives can be interrupted, misused or even forgotten with the OOC content that goes into our characters these days. This cannot be seen more evident with Necromancers and how commonly they are accepted by not just the players, but Provincial orders as a whole.

DR-KOROR said:
>>While we cannot control how players utilize out of game communication platforms to form relationships or organize for events, how characters choose to respond to the lore is up to them, and the lore has always supported both vitriolic hatred and acceptance of Necromancers. There has always been very intentional ambiguity baked into these matters. However, I hope people are able to separate their characters views from their players views, and remember that we are all playing this game together!


I think you misinterpreted what i was saying here, my statement above was to example and give reference to what was to follow in the paragraph that immediately followed it, (that being....)

LOCUTIS1 said:
>>The absence of the random appearance of GMPC's to nudge, remind or even direct our players and RP adds a proverbial "full stop" to any lore or basis on how the stereo typical Elanthian would morally or intellectually behave

And that by having GMPC's is a way of directing LORE for those players that do not follow up by reading epedia, or researching the in-game books or historical text.


I feel i may have erred by using a reference to Necromancer LORE given my (Rifkinns) RP on the matter. And the point i was trying to make was lost.


So say for example, a Empath was to be performing a shift outside the Empath guild. And in the presents of other players who are all standing around talking. To have Constanze show up and give a dressing down to that Empath about shifting and why it is so bad. It is a lot easier for a player to dismiss another player preaching LORE, but i have found that players listen and are more willing to follow GMPC's and their take on LORE. (as you pointed out, said Empath in this scenario is still perfectly entitled to give the proverbial finger and go on her merry way)

i learnt a lot about Empath stuff from Salvur and Constanze coming out and talking to other Empaths and it then gave me an interest to look up Epedia. Even though things were not being directed at me.


One other and a more controversial RP scenario was that of Drexella and her loosing her house.

I hope this may have clarified the point was trying to make.


>>Invasions are a mixed bag, similar to 'boss characters' -- people either love them or hate them. We see people complain regularly that invasions are meaningless and boring, and something they simply ignore. Do you have suggestions for how to make these more engaging?

Yes they can be, but i do not believe so when accompanied by a narrative with a bad guy or guys 'on the odd time but not necessarily having to be every time'. And if part of a great event like a race or inter-provincial war they are almost a necessity

Do you remember in the Elpalzi invasions, within the event a small number of us players were targeted by 'Assassins' of the Elpalzi, we would get a message something to the effect of 'a strange prickling on the back of your neck gives you the uneasy feeling"
While these guys were basically un-fightable (though slash haux at that time gave this thief an edge ;) ), they just ruined us, it was alot of fun though, and gave me an adrenaline rush.

taking this idea a little further..

What if something like this was bought back via GMPC's? Players new they were being targeted.... This would open up a great way to bring back in some CvC game play. A messaging system could even be sent to the player to agree to be targeted for any player who wished not to participate and only partake in the invasion. "you feel uneasy for a moment OOC reply yes if you agree to be targeted"

Any Random player number of players could be targeted, if multiple GMPC's were active at once even better. Are Empaths being targeted in the Triage? Is Triage being kept secret? Are the assassins crafty enough to approach a player and bribe him for a triage location? Will the one who accepted the bribe be outed or even seen? Do players need moongates to escape the assassins, or even lure them into a trap?

Sahafra used to chase me around crossing, and would kill me, she would then sit in hiding waiting for someone to come along and drag my body, and then ambush them.


bringing something a bit more interactive into the invasion and not have it so completly AI.


OK im way way way tired writing this, work sucks ruins everything. Im not sure if what i suggested in regards to invasions was in line with what you asked, but... its where this tired Aussies head went at this ungodly hour.

I still have more i will like to input with other topics and opinions with events, so maybe tomorrow after work.




Rifkinn

oh.... one last thing...

>>Should these events be spontaneous, or announced ahead of time on the calendar and/or via in game announcements?

please for the love of god..... please dont calendar them. (haven't we learnt from alterations and the player neediness and self entitlement?) ..... C'mon i did say it was late, room for a little snark, right?.

Make them Spontaneous. If there is one thing that i love in RP is to have it Organic and free flowing. When you schedule this stuff it sets up boundaries of control.

again i may have more to say on this.

HASTALUEGO:

>Over the course of the last 5-10 years, Events have largely shifted from everyday political intrigue, war, basic local events, etc., to large cosmic planar issues.

This seems to be a central theme, in large part to the sort of player driven events players are putting forth, and our desire to wrap up some of the bigger picture issues that are left unfinished. It is worth pointing out that while the "common less-cosmic events" are also areas we hope to continue working on, the setting is very rooted in some of these larger issues. While any guild can and do partake in complicated politics and intrigue and regional conflict, the majority of guilds are somewhat to extremely firmly resting on, or even, poking with a sharp stick, these weighty cosmological metamagic topics. Still, the point is well taken, and the reminder has been heard!

>I do tend to get discouraged from being more proactive in pushing my own ideas, because I know there is a distinct mind-set(even if there may be no hard or fast rule) in regards to what GMs are currently willing to allow PCs to attempt, and that keeps what I think are some of my better ideas from ever taking form.

This can be a mixed issue -- we do want players to try things, but we also want players to remember that many of the things they are trying are in fact quite dangerous, or untenable in the setting. Playing with potent forces, etc. Because of this, many proposed player events place us in a position to either respond with heavy use of invasions and explosions, or try something strange and different, if we are able to respond at all. The take away could be (and I should have emphasized this in my initial post!) that all player events should be built around the understanding that we cannot respond to everything, and a lack of response from staff should NOT be what your event hinges upon.

We strive to make Elanthia feel like a dynamic and living world, but every time players sit at their computers to play Dragonrealms, it is not the equivalent of sitting at a table with a Dungeon Master who can respond to you in real time -- as we cannot always be at the computer too, it is entirely possible that your dance to the volcano Gods will simply result in you boogeying across town. I do wish we had the bandwidth to trot out a GMPC to discuss ideas before they are attempted, as a number of event proposals would have been much better discussion topics than events to respond to.

Which, of course, tells me that that is exactly what we should do in some situations, as that would often be much easier and maybe even more enjoyable than some of the responses we actually put together.

ZERODIVIDES:

>I was thinking of the Maelshyvean vessels -- if they weren't flexing then they were much easier than I expected.

I do not believe they flexed, and they were in fact quite weak, relatively speaking. I think they only appeared during the first raid, not during the Death of Maelshyve Event. If you saw any during the Death of Maelshyve, it was likely because someone had used a capture bottle.

SAUVA:

>But once, give it a go where you play some favorites, and reward those players that have dedicated years of their RL lives, either to grinding out ranks, or to role-playing the heck out of their characters (or both!) and let the wiki reflect forever that TurribleButcheringOfNameFromLiterature was the PC that changed DR forever.

It has always been interesting to see where people report themselves as the heroes or influences of the stories, and where they remain silent. What I am trying to say is "I believe players have played a larger impact in greater events, and witnessed more events, than some people seem to think, despite what may or may not appear in Elanthipedia". It is a mixed issue, but we will do what we can to make players feel more like the leading actors and heroes of the story when appropriate.

ACIDICSNAIL:

>I recall when I was still fairly new to DR, a friend took me to Raven's Court and introduced me to a GMPC who was just hanging out with people. There wasn't anything special going on but it still felt really cool to meet a provincial official one on one like that.

I can see why that would be neat. I admit to some hesitation in doing this regularly due to some of the responses I have seen from people expressing frustration that nothing meaningful came from the hangout session, but I agree that activity from prominent GMPCs in the courts and guilds will make things feel more vibrant and active.

LIURIDR:

>I seem to recall in the past that with some invasions, different level creatures were mostly limited to specific areas by using portals (ex: NE, N, and W gates of Crossing) and GMs running the invasion would nudge PCs who were slaughtering critters way below their ability to go to other spots to help out instead. But I agree also with the invasion should be dangerous element of not having (as much) of the equal flex mobs.

Yes, often we will set certain parts of the city for certain relative ranges. For example, around the West Gate, we will invade with enemies up to 200 ranks, around the East Gate, 200-400, and around the NE Customs, around 600-800, etc. This is a little more juggling on our part, but can help lower ranked characters feel that they have a place to slot into things. Personally, I think this is something that could be directly handled with flex creatures, and then we mix in the occasional much tougher creature for the higher ranked characters to deal with, but it certain is not a one size fits all approach, and we can dabble in both.

ELFTOON:

>It could be stretching, but would it be possible to ever receive feedback directly from events prior to an event?

Sometimes, if a given idea is particularly problematic, we will clarify via email what limited response, if any, we are able to take to the event. Other times, the messaging we will be sending should be an indicator of what is going on -- if you are still on fire, that might be a clue. I can say I have personally seen people try X thing, sent them messages to the tune of "Nothing happens because this is not a viable idea" and watched them simply continue doing the thing or escalating their efforts with the thing. As I mentioned above to HASTALEUGO, I believe either an email or GMPC visit to discuss and clarify the proposed idea may be a way to overall reduce any feelings of being directionless, so look out for that in the future.

LOCUTIS1:

>I feel i may have erred by using a reference to Necromancer LORE given my (Rifkinns) RP on the matter. And the point i was trying to make was lost.

That's ok! Thanks for clarifying. Also, the lore nudging that we have utilized over the years itself has been largely interpreted and filtered through player account and opinion!

>So say for example, a Empath was to be performing a shift outside the Empath guild. And in the presents of other players who are all standing around talking. To have Constanze show up and give a dressing down to that Empath about shifting and why it is so bad. It is a lot easier for a player to dismiss another player preaching LORE, but i have found that players listen and are more willing to follow GMPC's and their take on LORE. (as you pointed out, said Empath in this scenario is still perfectly entitled to give the proverbial finger and go on her merry way)

I believe, but could be remembering incorrectly, that an Empath performing a Shift in a JUSTICE zone will immediately trigger the guards? I understand your point though that the consequence and dressing down for doing so coming from a guild leader will have more weight. I agree with you. However, this gets back to the point about how we simply cannot sit and watch everything that happens in game, and why we are MUCH more likely to respond to something if we hear about it happening before hand, or if you use a REPORT to let us know. When most of us 'sit down to GM', we often do not simply park a body in a public place and watch and wait for something interesting to happen. That's partially why I mean you cannot rely on GM responses to your events to be the final say in how events transpire.

>Do you remember in the Elpalzi invasions, within the event a small number of us players were targeted by 'Assassins' of the Elpalzi, we would get a message something to the effect of 'a strange prickling on the back of your neck gives you the uneasy feeling"

I personally loved those, but need to point out that a lot of people complain vehemently at what they perceive to be "instant death" mechanics. We receive a lot of complaints about disruptions to play, and "rankless kills", and so have become weary about doing this for certain situations. So, basically, it varies, we will consider it :)

DR-JAVAC:

>He might try to claw your eyes out in hello, or lick your cheek in vegence... But could still be fun.

This too is how I play some of my GMPCs.

---

One common theme that people seem to want more of is general non-release related interactions with GMPCs such as guild leaders or similar. My concerns with doing so are as follows, and I bring these up directly as discussion points, not as 'reasons this cannot happen'.

1. Often times players are not paying attention to the insides of guilds, or are using guilds as quiet rooms to AFK (either while continuing to gain experience, or to drain off field experience). We do not want GMPCs to start feeling like script checks, so on the occasions we have walked a GMPC into a room of people and started chatting, and been ignored, it puts us in an odd position of wondering whether we actually need to start some script checks. We could gweth to announce that we were coming down to the common area for a little while, but this may also make people feel like some of the spontaneity has been removed. What do people feel a good middle ground is, understanding that many players do not 'hang out' in each of the guildhalls waiting for this sort of event to occur?

2. Many of these guild leaders are not nice people. We neither want players to feel bullied or abused by these individuals, nor do we want players to 'seek punishment' from them as part of a desire for any response of entertainment. No one should be disrespecting Kssarh. He barely tolerates others breathing loudly in his presence. As the number of characters that are larger than 150 circles expands guild leader ignores as punishment becomes increasingly less impactful, and the number of people who think they are more powerful than the guild leaders grows (They are not. Not at all). How do people think we should balance the reality of some of these personalities against some of the behaviors that occasionally occur in crowds? As a very specific question -- how would people feel about being killed by these guild leaders? Permanent item loss? etc.?

Perhaps a quarterly event raffle could drum up some interest. PC's that want to participate would enter to win a chance to work with the event team to brainstorm or create an game-wide, guild-centric, or whatever their heart desires (obviously there would be some guidelines and such, restrictions etc..). Give some "power" to the player so they feel involved and feel as though they are being heard by the staff as well.

Events are out there, player-led as well as GMPCs lurking and mixing it up but unfortunately it seems that some players want to know that its happening rather than let it happen organically.

I like the idea of the "hero" as well as an option for our "villains". I don't think ranks are the answer though, it should be up to characters that have Rp'd with them in the past or present. Something they've done that had a lasting impression on either character, perhaps a vote at a town hall meeting or something fun. Bring the community closer together since most of us have been playing together for 20 something years.

ACIDICSNAIL:

>One thing that I really like is that blatantly Perverse necromancers are occasionally barred from entering Philosopher guildhalls. It's an excellent way to give consequences for RP, and I'd hope it would happen whether that character was circle 2 or 200. I fully support other guilds adopting a similar style of punishment even in the instances where it carries less bite due to an already high circle.

To take the question further (and I am not at all sure we could even do this!), what if a particularly egregious set of behaviors led to a Guildleader blocking you from a specific spell? An entire spellbook? This would of course be reversible with a deserving exculpation.

>Are people chatting or is it mostly quiet with people playing their zills and kicking rocks? If it's the latter, probably not a good time for a GMPC to show up.

This is getting off topic, but I feel it needs to be said -- we do not enjoy script checking people, and we do not enjoy seeing people AFK, let alone while you are holding an event with other people. I would rather people arguing ICly with the concept of the event than a room full of people kicking rocks. Gwething about an appearance 15m ahead of time may be a good approach.

BLAMBOHEAD:

>Perhaps a quarterly event raffle could drum up some interest. PC's that want to participate would enter to win a chance to work with the event team to brainstorm or create an game-wide, guild-centric, or whatever their heart desires (obviously there would be some guidelines and such, restrictions etc..). Give some "power" to the player so they feel involved and feel as though they are being heard by the staff as well.

I feel like we did offer something like this, though I cannot recall. I will push this one up the chain and see what sort of plausibility there is for it to happen, with the obvious caveats being we reserved the right to change things as needed.

Note though, sufficiently supported and thought over plans by players basically do regularly become 'things in game'. If you have a particular idea you want to see happen, email into events.

HASTALUEGO:

>Two things I'd like to mention here. One, I think punishments need to be more creative, because you're right: once you hit 150th circle, what the Guild has to offer you takes a serious decline, and if the Guild isn't active there can sometimes be very little reason to maintain the connection to it.

What do you suggest?

>Two, if there is a mind-set in GM-Land that a PC who is encroaching upon game's skill cap(That is the PC is 200th circle with skills inching beyond that) is not at the same skill level as their Guild Leaders, I would respectfully request you deeply reconsider this notion. The game has a skill cap, it takes quite a while to achieve it, and I can't think of any good reason the Guildleaders should be beyond it. In fact, some Guildleaders have been killed by superior PCs in the past already. A Guildleader might have some secret abilities/spells/items/etc. that separate them from the populace, but I think outside of the most extreme circumstances, no Guildleader should be instantly obliterating a 200th circle PC. Can they still best the PC in a fight? Certainly, but they also might lose. Womp Womp. Students should be able to surpass their teachers.

I checked with upper management (this is the verbatim response) -- "We've always said that guildleaders are far beyond the player-attainable circles. Taramaine was considered 400ish circle in the 2000s."

If there is an example of a Guildleader being killed by PCs, it is likely a goof, a failure to flag something properly or set skills or wear armor or stance correctly. While it is possible for characters to be the heroes of stories, it is extremely unlikely a character will become more powerful than a Guildleader. These people are not in their position due to inertia. They do not merely have 'some secret tricks' -- they are the people who establish and codify the tricks they are willing to teach you (as pointed out, in the case of some guilds like the WMs, the Guildleaders are actually a step below the real power base. In other cases, like with the Empaths Guild, withholding power and information is baked into the entire training process. ). I have heard senior GMs jokingly refer to Kssarh as "Professor X level of power".

While there are opportunities to acknowledge the ranks that some players have earned, we do not believe that one such opportunity is "usurping or surpassing Guildleaders". I think not only should Guildleaders be capable of virtually instantly obliterating a 200th circle PC, we should think of their talents beyond "really high ranks". They know things and can do things that PCs cannot.

>> To take the question further (and I am not at all sure we could even do this!), what if a particularly egregious set of behaviors led to a Guildleader blocking you from a specific spell? An entire spellbook? This would of course be reversible with a deserving exculpation.

Game on.

I know a cleric who managed, via RP choices and rhetoric, to essentially get excommunicated from the guild. The player pivoted this into a remarkable character arc.

- I

>>I do not believe they flexed, and they were in fact quite weak, relatively speaking. I think they only appeared during the first raid, not during the Death of Maelshyve Event. If you saw any during the Death of Maelshyve, it was likely because someone had used a capture bottle.

They were in the Darkmist Moor Abyss. I remember expecting to meet the creatures that are usually there (bloodwraiths, bone golems, bone mastiffs and shylvic) and instead the area was wholly populated by Maelshyvean vessels.

--

In terms of story lines, I'd like to see something that spills over from the Thief guild or even something that stems from the Ranger or Barbarian guilds.

200th circle is the player character skill cap. When you hit 200th circle no one says, 'congratulations you're a guildleader now!'. If the other guilds hold back even a quarter of the forbidden knowledge that the Moon Mage and Empath guilds do you're still weak compared to a GL at 200th. That GLs have been/can be killed by players speaks more to the fact that GMs don't get anywhere near the play time that players do - it has little reflection on how powerful the characters themselves are.

>> When you hit 200th circle no one says, 'congratulations you're a guildleader now!'

Of course they're not, anyone can hit 200th circle, they do not have to ever engage with the Guild as an actual organization at all whatsoever. There's no reason someone hitting 200th would be proclaimed a Guildleader, the problem isn't about that.

>>That GLs have been/can be killed by players speaks more to the fact that GMs don't get anywhere near the play time that players do - it has little reflection on how powerful the characters themselves are.

This doesn't really follow. Look at how skill ranks are spread out over the course of those 200 circles, then imagine the skill ranks a 400th circle character would have. This means that someone like say, Gorteous, getting into some sort of fight with say, Agonar, would look like the Bride vs. Pai Mei. But that typically isn't what happens, nor should it happen.

Hoarding power(abilities, spells, secrets, artifacts, etc) is one thing, to be vastly more skilled than your students at that point seems rather ridiculous in both the scheme of things and within the overview of the world itself.

An additional note: I'm not advocating for an increase in achievable skill ranks here. I think any addition to the "ladder" as it stands would be a poor notion.

Honestly, I don't think that there are anywhere near enough consequences to actions in-game.

Can you clarify what you mean by that? We have responded to a great number of player run events with far more than a single string of text.

Possibly stupid question. What's a good way to notify the events team that there's something going down that it would be good/interesting to have GM involvement in? Email? To what address? What sort of information should be included?

I ran an event a few months ago that I was hoping to have involvement in, and got none. Not especially upset about that. But I want to run a follow-on, perhaps more than one, and for various reasons it would be not just difficult but nearly impossible to do so without some sort of GM involvement.

L. Kersauzon

First of all, thanks for opening this up for discussion, Koror.

I'd like to preface everything I'm about to say with this: I appreciate the GMs and the events team and all the work that goes into running even what seems like a small event. Sometimes it seems like you guys are practically everywhere at once, and it never fails to make me smile when an innocuous comment or reaction to what I assume is atmospheric messaging results in a response. I can't understand everything that goes on behind the scenes in regards to running and supporting events, which makes it maybe a little harder to formulate 100% useful feedback, as something that seems simple to me might be ridiculously complicated GM-side. I will say that, in general, the events team have been doing a great job at responding to things that players instigate. It's always a joy when this happens, whether my character is involved or I'm reading logs of other people's events. This has definitely been a good few years for GMs picking up and running with stuff started by players, which is always awesome. Keep it up!

Now then, for my specific answers to your questions:

What I'd like to see more of:
I would love to see more player agency. Perune already touched on this in his post, and I agree with everything that he's said. From what I understand, based on this conversation and others, the two biggest obstacles in the way of giving more agency and responsibility to players are worries about favoritism ("What if these other players get angry and complain if Bob is chosen to be the Prince's champion instead of them?") and worries about trust ("what if we put our trust in Bob as the Prince's champion and plan on him being a central player in a big event only for him not to show up?"). These are both valid worries, and I understand the want to prevent them. But the benefits of attempting to completely safeguard against them in every situation are not worth the cost of the resulting restrictions and OOC red tape that seriously hinder organizing and running player events. It oftentimes feels like the creative potential for events without the need for a GM NPC is artificially and intentionally limited because there's a chance that someone, somewhere, might get a little jealous.

>>"As a possible point of clarification, this outlook is not because we, the GMs, do not understand how ranks work, or how many ranks people have, or how long it takes to grind out those ranks. It is because we see, and want to encourage, good RP, good storytelling opportunities, and the possibility for good interactions, from players of all different ranks."

It seems like this is what GMs and players want. But in order to let this happen, we need to loosen up on some of the restrictions around what PCs are allowed to do and not worry so much about favoritism.

Additionally, I don't think that players are generally asking for their PCs to be able to do things like destroy moons, punch out GLs, or single handedly win the big war when we ask for more player agency and impact on the world. Although, it should be noted that things of this scale shouldn't be considered off the table, either, as they have already been allowed to happen in some instances (see Maelshyve and previous examples of PCs killing major NPCs, including GLs). To use my own PC as an example, she and Zhirrisk, another PC, were responsible for the creation of an altar, after a very long time of pushing for one and building events around that concept. As far as I'm aware, this didn't result in a coup of upset players angry about favoritism. Another example of a player taking on a star role is Asrea having a personal role in the fall of Lyras. There was a Necromancer PC who got to have a world-wide vision based around them for being Chosen by that lich guy. The creation of the Chrysalis for HE 410 was instigated by PCs. PCs got to get pretty heavily involved during the Elpalzi war. This sort of stuff happens and has happened; we just want to see more of it! And, IMO, getting to see a PC take center stage in matters that the character is heavily involved in anyway is always worth the small and kinda inconsequential risk of maybe a handful of people getting salty. What are those people contributing in return? Is guarding their potential hurt feelings really worth it?

In regards to the "chosen player doesn't show up" scenario, again, I don't think the risk is worth restricting or foregoing player agency entirely. A player with a proven investment and dedication to RP is not the same sort of person who is going to disappear without a word at the last second. If a participating character is shaping up to be "spotlight" material based on initiative, level of involvement, and/or other factors, then just pull them aside and speak with them openly about the responsibilities that come with accepting a key role in the event, then keep them in the loop when it comes to planning important dates. I think that sort of open communication would go a long way and help build trust between players and GMs.

The idea of allowing PCs to assume positions of responsibility was brought up in last summer's SoE. I truly and honestly hope that you guys will consider picking that up and running with it! Like Perune said, more players given agency and key positions across the provinces means that we can build more life and push events in those places while supporting GM story lines and helping to shoulder their workload. We'd love to help!

I've already spoken a lot, but the other thing I'd like to see more of is lasting and serious consequences for RP, especially for characters regularly engaging in villainous, radical, and/or other kinds of socially taboo behavior. Perune and Liurilias both brought up some good ideas. I'd love to see more of this, beyond excommunication. Honestly, seeing the Red Buzzard come back into use would be a dream come true to me. Here are some additional thoughts:

1) Permanent disfigurement (forced feature alterations, like the ones caused Beezell... but unable to be instantly cured by an Empath) and/or brands or scars, the latter of which could additionally be magically cursed to either provide some kind of magic-debuff (lowered Attunement cap, temporary mana-blindness, or exp penalty), or periodically pulse a chunk of spirit/attunement/vitality damage.

2) Being cut off from one's guild confound. An Empath forced into a state of artificial perma shock. A moon mage barred from access to Grazhir shards and astral travel. A Cleric losing access to all Divine Intervention spells.

3) For those PCs who like to flirt with Necromancy and commonly back up Necromancers against the Immortals, loss of favors and the inability to gain more. The inability to be raised by Clerics (the gods just go "Nah, not that guy.")

4) Traders fined heavily and potentially blacklisted from town markets due to the overt selling of black market contraband (like neatly labeled Necromancer and Sorcery spell scrolls...)

5) On the flip side, overly inquisitive Necromancer hunters could and probably should end up on a slab for experimentation, mutation, and/or parts butchery. Make more use of the forced DO that was applied to people during the Maelshyve events.

6) Bounty hunter and vigilante NPCs who try to take down active criminal PCs and bring them to justice.

Some of these would obviously require a lot of work. These aren't for any and every time a PC does a naughty thing. Like any other long-term RP response, they would be saved for continuous and consistent villainous behavior.

>>"Caveats here include the reality that players get really upset (rightfully so, maybe!) at the idea of having their desired play time hindered by consequence."

Somebody choosing to roleplay a character in an overtly and intentionally deviant manner should not only not be upset by these consequences, they should be eager to receive them. The Cleric PC spoken of recently in the conversation is a great example. In my PC's earlier days of villainy, she was banned from like 90% of an entire province for her actions. Honestly, I think she should have received even more backlash than that. Caveat radical.

If you're really worried about a player having a fit about permanent consequences, it might be prudent to pull them up and let them know that if they continue their current direction of role play choices, it could end up with something very serious happening to their character.

I also think the lasting consequences should go the other way, too. I love it when characters can receive things like custom titles for their efforts. Granting PCs of merit guild artifacts or other unique items when appropriate is something I'd love to see happen. Custom Guardian Spirits, Shield of Light appearances, spell preps, feature changes, or room post-strings are also examples of things that exist right now as MT prizes/alterations and would be fun for players to receive as responses to their actions, involvement, and initiative (again, when appropriate).

What I'd like to see less of:
I agree with several other people who suggested focusing events on more down-to-earth, less reality-shattering, cosmology-heavy plotlines. Inter-provincial strife in particular has gripped me as something that would be a lot of fun for a variety of characters and players... and provide a natural opportunity to start filling up some of those provincial PC positions of responsibility!

Things that discourage me:
I am one of those people who hate invasions. I typically don't find PvE "mob-combat" to be particularly compelling, and the scroll stresses me out. If an event looks like it's going to largely consist of invasion combat, I will reluctantly attend if I feel like it makes sense for my character to participate, but I'll be a little discouraged all the same. On a related note, if I'm going to get gibbed horribly during an event I'd like it to be because I challenged Ciriasa or trash-talked a lich, not because I walked into a room at the same time that a Starlight Harbinger just so happened to initiate its rogue moongate special. I understand that overcoming the challenge of a massively overpowered boss monster is just the sort of danger and excitement that some players crave, and I wouldn't want to take that away from them... I just would like to move from room to room during an invasion without worry of being splattered across time and space because I got unlucky. It's not a deal breaker, just kind of annoying.

At any rate, this is why it's really nice when there are alternative avenues for participation during invasions. I love it when a dark god is invading and I can have Whiteburn do her thing by trying to shepherd people to the temple and lead them in prayer. It's a win-win situation, as it's what Whiteburn would naturally do, and it allows me, the player, not to have to deal with the chaos of the actual invasion while still feeling like I'm engaging with the event in a meaningful way.

Thanks for reading and for participating in this discussion.

I do not want PCs being the center of the attention. I think it's ok for them to start a RP idea, but I want anything big to be done by GMs and NPCs.

I think PCs being the center of attention would cause a sense of favoritism and the game should avoid giving this appearance. At the end of the day, why create unnecessary frustration for people who are paying to play a game.

I'm also against increasing RP repercussions for three reasons. First, this would ultimately result in GMs spending their time dealing with more interpersonal conflict. Second, if repercussions are too hard, it would have the opposite effect that people want, that is it would decrease RP participation. Third, this is ultimately a game and people play games so that they can be creative and do things that their real life counterpart would not do. The idea of permanent RP repercussions would dissuade some from playing.

HASTALUEGO said..

3. Penal Colony action where they're forced to earn their way out via some sort of daily slave labor, which could be crafting skills that provide something for them worthwhile to do.


I dont care if my characters sit there for awhile as long as I have the option to get my items, or the hidden way out is returned.

All I'd love to see is the Penal Colony & the "effects" on Mer'kesh on S'kra's is returned to the way it used to be. The only effect I can remember offhand was the tail yanking with its RT, the reason I was basically given for the effects to be removed was HLC that trained there found them irrating.
Well, its my understanding not as many folks train there anymore, & if any effects had a RT maybe it could be removed? Or just find another way if the tail pulling was the only one to remove it & put another non RT effect in its place?

I really want to take my s'kra back there, they love going to Hara & bugging the corsairs. But its just a waste of my time to go there now, the effects at least gave me a reason to rp with no one (Hey Elizz was crazy, now she ancient so she can be even crazier) which never bothered me, I didnt mind having my chars reacting to area effects even if no one was there to see them.

Please please please, I've been begging for a couple years now to get Kresh's s'kra effects along with the penal colony reopened along with its hidden escape. Please?

There are many here speaking to the consequences of being evil. Yeah, there must be these, and I have enjoyed every single one of them.

However, there are consequences for all actions good or evil. There must be dangerous consequences for supporting The Inquisition. I mean think about it, it's an organization that specializes in hunting down and killing individuals. What happens when the townspeople get tired of said Inquisitor and decide that they are just as much of a problem as the Raise the dead Necromancer that is pestering their town? What if said townspeople revolt and kill everyone? They do outnumber us.

There are dangers to being a Necromancer, there are also dangers to being that foaming at the mouth fanatic Inquisitor we all know!

So I say everyone should get to have consequences!

Being a Necromancer is just a bonus!

What a great Thread this has been. One thing i think that can be taken away from all this is, There is a very big interest in RP, And two, People want more of it.


Having this thread move around varying different topics, ide like to weigh in.


In-game consequences...
For me consequences has been a defining aspect of my RP. And mostly they have been personal consequences. Weather its been taking a death from being mouthy, or not being able to participate in an event because of my stance on certain LORE. These are guidelines i hold for myself, so i can stay true to my character.

I would very much like to see more consequences like what we have seen in the past. And personally I'll take any consequence weather its good or bad.

In my opinion, the seemingly relaxed attitude of GM's being reluctant to hand out these, has created the somewhat stale and stagnant attitude we have in DR these days.

I very much feel we have gone way to far in the other extreme in trying to make everyone happy and for people to not have a less than fun experience in DR.

There is a very easy way to not have consequences.... Dont do things that could bring these about for your character. But, im reading a bit to much of an attitude from some that they want their cake and want to be able to eat it as well.

An example im reluctant to use because Inneth.... i like you a lot and you do some great things for the game, but I just find this statement very frustrating, and a prime example of the cake and eat it to.

Inneth said.
>>I play one character: a necromancer. It's awesome. That said, 100% of my RP does not revolve around BEING a necromancer, or at least it shouldn't.

Yes it absolutely should be 100% of the time, That is who your character is. YOU may not want to be, or your RP might be that you think your not 100% of the time. BUT for Rifkinn and the game environment you are a Necromancer 100% of the time.



Favoritism....
Im slightly concerned that there is an undercurrent that 'favoritism' is being seen as more about being liked and noticed than that of a traditional sense of favoritism being that a person gains access to things that another ordinary person would be entitled to.

And i think peoples fear of this is missing the point.

If someone puts in the work to get around to meeting spots and talk to most people, if they have a consistent RP, if they are vocal and make themselves known, If they take risks on speaking out.... They will normally shine and be recognized within the game. And this again should be encouraged and supported. Most of my time in DR has been spent watching other players, seeing what i like and what i don't like and learning from that. Ive had mentors and in game even sought council from some players through RP.

I am more than happy to see this, We need a hierarchy among the players. These types of 'characters' while in-game they may deserve that, the 'players' have ernt that, and visa versa.

Player hierarchy makes the spot light attainable for everyone, not just GMPC's and gives us something to strive for. It motivates us, If that's something we want. And being the center of attention at times is just a part of that.



Rifkinn

>> Yes it absolutely should be 100% of the time, That is who your character is. YOU may not want to be, or your RP might be that you think your not 100% of the time. BUT for Rifkinn and the game environment you are a Necromancer 100% of the time.

Let's try that again, shall we?

To clarify: I am NOT advocating to make necromancers just like everybody else. It is a hard path, should be a hard path, and I don't want to see a world where there's no differences or consequences for my (the character's) mere existence in the game.

For Rifkinn I am a necromancer 100% of the time. Yep, agreed. I don't expect us to ever sit down for a cup of tea, and I'd frankly be disappointed if we had an encounter out in the world where you didn't immediately try (again) to kill me.


>> ... and the game environment you are a Necromancer 100% of the time.

For the game environment I am NOT a necromancer 100% of the time.
- In some contexts, yes, it matters tremendously.
- In some contexts it should matter MORE than it does now.
- In other contexts it shouldn't matter at all.

That word I keep repeating? Context.


>> That is who your character is.

Identity matters. Choices matter. Nuances matter.

Take Rifkinn the character as an example. Your role in the Inquisiton has very little to do with your profession. And I love that. (The morale crusade of a character in a typically amoral profession -- that's great.)

Looping back to the original discussion: I'm not looking for more "necromancer events". I'm looking for more EVENTS period. I, as a player, want more engagement with the game world. All of it, the good and the bad, with all the consequences that come with it. My profession choice matters, but it does not completely define who my character and everything that he does.

- I