>>It is 100% true. The GMs have brought up, multiple times, their thoughts on what a DR character's "lifespan" should be.

For starters you are assuming my argument is to allow 24/7 afk scripting. Secondly, so what? Character lifespan can change. It has before a few times.

The afk scripting is a bigger issue then just the game's policy on it. The policy itself doesn't really reflect the reality on the ground. I mean look back at your post on how to avoid getting hit with a warning. Notice how none of those suggestions are "don't script" or even "don't afk script". Watching a movie on a second monitor is AFK scripting. The current policy is if you glance at a fly in the wall you are an AFK scripter. If you are doing those things you should be getting a warning and rank reductions.

My argument is that policy doesn't reflect what's happening on the ground. From the player perspective it comes off as arbitrary as to who gets hit or not. My argument is that any significant change to policy will also need some minor to major changes to some core systems. Even with no changes to policy there needs to be significant changes to core systems. You can't simultaneously have a harsh AFK policy while also building a game that screams to be scripted. And if the game doesn't scream it your wrist will!

>>I'm surprised at the people who are arguing that AFK scripting is a good thing.

I'm not sure they think it's a good thing as much as a means to an end. Or that it's a binary system. GM's are not gonna give us unfettered 24/7 scripting and nor should they. The argument should be for a more flexible policy and for core systems to be redesigned so players don't need (my poor wrists!) to script or feel like they need to script just to make descent progress.

>>The current policy is if you glance at a fly in the wall you are an AFK scripter.

The current policy is that if you fail a script check you're an AFK scripter. Glancing at flies, web pages and even the tv should all be fine so long as you're not taking 5-10+ minutes at a time to do it.

>> The current policy is that if you fail a script check you're an AFK scripter. Glancing at flies, web pages and even the tv should all be fine so long as you're not taking 5-10+ minutes at a time to do it.

That is not the policy, that is a limitation of the testing criteria.

There is no time specification in
"Any activity that results in ANY benefit to either you or another player while being unresponsive to the gaming environment will be considered against policy."

I would like to see the scripting policy replaced with a disruption policy that gives incentive to enjoy the game without causing harm and harassment to others.

First offense would be a verbal/automated warning only. Moved into violation room to review. No loss, this warning is for information purposes only basically:
Second offense would be a verbal/automated warning with loss of field experience and moved into violation room. Assigned to a player mentor in case there is any confusion.
Third offense would be a 1 day lockout
Fourth offense would be a 1 week lockout
Fifth offense would be a 30 day lockout.



Disruptions are defined as:
Intentionally disrupting another player without consent with actions such as dragging or stunning.
Unnecessary screen scroll done without gain (collecting rocks is fine, kicking an environmental rock by mistake 70000 times is not)
Dropping more than 10 items on the ground within a 5 minute period.
etc etc

>>The benefits of a policy like this is that it could correct the individual annoyances that people have with scripting such as broken scripts or unnecessary spam.

What about exacerbating an already broken in-game economy, from coins gained while hunting to T5 material drop rates?

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I had to laugh at the definition of disruption.... because its exactly what happens when a GM script checks then punishes you for failing.

Disruptions are defined as:

Intentionally disrupting another player without consent with actions such as dragging or stunning.

This happend when they port you to that "You have been bad" room and knock you out and then hold you prisoner till you agree to be a good boy.


Unnecessary screen scroll done without gain.

Yeah, bunny hops in.... chats with you... begs to bd petted... then you get spammed by the PET THE BUNNAH OR DIE!!!!! wall of scroll.

Maz*

Not to "necro" an old thread (how many 'new' threads are there, anwyay), but I feel like something that is completely lost in all the AFK Scripting discussions is how/when it is disruptive. Yes, it can be immersion breaking for new players when you go to a popular spot and there's thirty people wearing shiny amazing descriptive armor that are all braiding grass. Yes, it can and probably has hurt the game economy. However, there are other instances where it's disruptive in other, more personal ways. Try being a low-circle Empath working your Empathy skill, which comes slowly enough as it is. Wounds are a limited resource, and when you have 2-3 obviously AFK 'zombies' or 'bots' or 'scripters' sitting in the Empath guild who instantly Unity Link heal someone not ten milliseconds after their script picks up the word "Heal" in chat, or worse when they do it as soon as they walk into the room, it can be very frustrating.

Sure there are alternatives, and I employ them. I go elsewhere, I make rounds offering services... but it can be very frustrating when you are just trying to be a better healer but can't because "Master Empath" so-and-so is AFK and taking everything in the place everyone goes looking for help with their wounds.

But I deal with it... and I'm not giving up. Sure, I could be a Battle Empath (if I can ever get my skills up high enough to begin) but that's not the character I wanted to play. The irony with all of this is that, from what I've been reading, the main argument of the Pro-AFK Scripter folks is that they are being penalized for playing how they want, while all along they are sometimes preventing others from playing how they want -- and in the worst cases adding exponential time to someone's progression to even be able to play in an alternative manner.

I have yet to REPORT anyone, because I try to be a nice player that is considerate of others. I have no problems with scripts, and I even have a lot of fun trying to write my own, but I also remain active while running them because, to me, they are merely a convenience. It really doesn't even bother me if someone AFK scripts in some remote, out-of-the-way place. My only issue with it is when they do it in largely public spaces -- which is where the interaction should be occurring.

It's been said before, though... this issue has been around for a very, very long time. I can't remember a time when it wasn't a problem, except for maybe the first time I started playing over fifteen years ago (I think? The years have become fuzzy.)

> You are free to not play a battle empath, but it means you are limiting your options for how to train Empathy.

While I am well aware of that, it seems fallacious to assume it's okay for me to have to adapt my desired play for the desired play of others when their desire requires them to break the rules/policy (though, realistically, this is the effectual outcome). The difference is that the consequence for my desire is personal, while generally the consequence of the AFK scripter/bot/zombie is interpersonal.

As far as TDP generation, PvP, etc... I accept all of that and may one day amend my playstyle accordingly, if I so choose. Currently, I am enjoying playing a character that has an important and meaningful job to other PCs, but is also weak and incapable of defending herself. It's an interesting juxtaposition to play with. It's all about character story to me, and the game mechanics are somewhat tertiary to me.

I really just wanted to point out something that seems to not have been stated in most of the discussion, and that's the fact that there are deliterious effects of AFK Scripting that go beyond the abstract (economy, game state, etc.). I don't expect, nor would I ask, that anything change just for my sake, but I feel it is important to note it anyway.

>>Enrogae: Not to "necro" an old thread (how many 'new' threads are there, anwyay), but I feel like something that is completely lost in all the AFK Scripting discussions is how/when it is disruptive. Yes, it can be immersion breaking for new players when you go to a popular spot and there's thirty people wearing shiny amazing descriptive armor that are all braiding grass. Yes, it can and probably has hurt the game economy. However, there are other instances where it's disruptive in other, more personal ways. Try being a low-circle Empath working your Empathy skill, which comes slowly enough as it is. Wounds are a limited resource, and when you have 2-3 obviously AFK 'zombies' or 'bots' or 'scripters' sitting in the Empath guild who instantly Unity Link heal someone not ten milliseconds after their script picks up the word "Heal" in chat, or worse when they do it as soon as they walk into the room, it can be very frustrating.

The Crossing Empaths' Guild is definitely a problem when it comes to rampant botting. Personally, I would like to see staff being a little more proactive with scripting enforcement in gathering places where new players are likely to show up. (New players who see only silence and scripting are unlikely to stick around.)

However, I also understand that GM resources are very limited, and GMs don't enjoy conducting script checks. So failing that, I think the following measures could improve the ability of Empaths to use the Crossing Empaths' Guild for its intended purpose:

AFK Scripting in General: Currently, the guildhall (especially the Courtyard Garden) is a scripter's paradise. It is warded against PvP and theft. You can forage for grass/vines to braid. You can practice locksmithing. Since the room has no roof, you can interact with the moons. The scroll is bad even with extensive gags. For a new player in the Web client (where all content is dumped into one window), the scroll is overwhelming.

I would like to see the Courtyard Garden and Infirmary be less scripting-friendly. Even just turning off the ability to forage materials for braiding and prohibiting locksmithing would help immensely. (I would also prohibit hiding/invisibility.)

Healbots Specifically: There are some players running bots that robo-heal before any human can manually respond. (You can tell they are bots when they attempt to heal other Empaths who are just talking about healing.) We have reported these bots as disruptive, but there is not enough manpower for GMs to handle these reports in a timely manner.

In the absence of GMs to deal with disruptive healbots, player Empaths could step up and police their own. However, Empaths over 100th circle cannot be removed from the guildhall, even by much more senior Empaths. I think this immunity should be weakened if not removed. (If abused, a player's ability to remove other Empaths can be removed by GMs.) For example, Empaths who are least 150th circle might be allowed to remove any Empath under 150th circle. With a second vote from another 150+ Empath, they could remove any Empath above 150th circle. A 200th circle Empath might be allowed to remove any other Empath of a lower circle with a single vote.

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"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer

Empath new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Empath_new_player_guide

Empath hunting ladder: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Empath_hunting_ladde

> I would like to see the Courtyard Garden and Infirmary be less scripting-friendly. Even just turning off the ability to forage materials for braiding and prohibiting locksmithing would help immensely. (I would also prohibit hiding/invisibility.)

Then everyone would move. You can already get this by going one west to the infirmary.

>Then everyone would move. You can already get this by going one west to the infirmary.

Which would only work if the general population would start going there for heals, instead of the courtyard. That would be great, in my opinion. I remember a time when that used to happen, but that time has long passed.

> Then everyone would start going there and this entire cycle would repeat with different rooms.

And before you say kill the ranger guild, you still have the NE gate, the warrior mage guild, the vineyard, and a myriad of other popular scripting spots since the game's very first days.

> (If the patients start coming to the Infirmary, the healbots will follow.)

For the record, I'm all about removing the bots from gathering spots, but I don't think anything will accomplish this. Scripters are very adept after 20 years of practice.

> The purpose of this suggestion isn't to remove (or move) all of the current AFK scripting hotspots. The suggestion is to make the main rooms of the Empaths' Guild more usable for their intended purpose of healing (and less likely to give a bad first impression to new players).

I'm not following your logic. Your suggestion is to make the main empath room less inviting, chase away the players and bots to a more inviting room, and somehow this is going to help new players? If there are no empaths there then no one gets healed at all. If you want them to go the infirmary where you are then they can do that already. They don't because no one is there.

Speaking of which, don't new players have a divine charm anyway? Maybe you should position an ATK empath at TGSE where they teleport to and join the game.

@SHIFT3: The argument is that a room where newbies may run to seek healing from other players shouldn't be a place that favors AFK botting. If people want to seek their healbots elsewhere, or use autopuffs, they can still do so.

>Speaking of which, don't new players have a divine charm anyway?

They do have a divine charm. My experience is that in many cases they are not aware of how the divine charm can help them.

- Felicini

>Maybe have it pulse an OOC atmo message if they're low on health to give advice.

This is a great idea, and I think a vastly easier and more effective one than a tutorial.

>However, this brings us back to the main point. If they aren't even aware of the charm then why do you think they would be aware of the popular gathering spots?

Simply because most help new players are going to get is going to be in the form of talking (probably OOG) to other players, many of whom will probably say something to the tune of "Go to the Empath guild to get healed"

> Honestly, I am not sure why you are pushing against these suggestions, particularly if you're "all about removing the bots from gathering spots."

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but this is what I'm hearing:

Person: I don't like the bots in the room where empaths heal. Make the room less appealing to bots.

Other person: Start healing in a different room, one that's already less appealing and used to be the place to be healed.

Person: But that's not where people to go to be healed. They like going to the room with bots.

Other person: So if you make the room less appealing, and the bots move, why wouldn't the

Person: Because new players go to the empath guild.

Other person: They don't know what the empath guild is. They're given a charm to heal them so they don't have to, and they start the game in a completely different room.

Person: "I am not sure why you are pushing against these suggestions"

> "all about removing the bots from gathering spots."

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This room is enticing because it allows so much. If you make it allow less then everyone loses. There are better options. For example, move the ATK healing to TGSE and introduce yourself to the new players. Tell them to come back for healing, or if no one is there then they can go to the empath guild because a new player might find a bot better than no one. Or, better yet, just give them a gweth and let them ask for help.

> I think these suggestions will improve the usability of the Empaths' Guild, even if they don't stop 100% of the botting.

On reddit, a new player just mentioned how they were ATK and kicked out of the empath guild and sent to a new location. They then couldn't get back into the guild. This is what happens when poorly thought out witch hunts are executed. You end up chasing people away.

> As I stated before, moving to the Infirmary does not address the entire problem (e.g., healbots that are immune to the removal mechanics)

We can play this game, but you cannot remove the bots. They are too sophisticated. They are sometimes run by professional DR players who have spent close to two decades perfecting them. If you ruin the room then they will go somewhere else, but the player base who uses these bots will go with them.

> I don't anticipate that Empaths would leave without these bots, as the bots are generally not injured (so no empathy experience), are likely mostly F2P (so no added scholarship experience for teaching them), and are generally unresponsive (so they are not contributing to the social climate).

Wait, so is the plan about getting rid of heal bots (which you can't F2P) or is it about getting rid of F2P bots that are bugging you? Those are two entirely different problems.

> I think these suggestions will improve the usability of the Empaths' Guild

Again, there are still better options. if you just want the "bad" room to be first, then what about shifting the empath guild one east. Entering the guild now takes you directly to the infirmary. The bots will bot in the back room while the players in the front room have the conversations. I suspect that the players will just move right past the infirmary, but you never know. In fact, you can do this now. Just stand outside of the empath's guild and do the healing there. Grab people first.

> Overcoming the inertia of players who are used to going to a particular room (the entrance) can take weeks of vocal campaigning

Okay. I agree with this.

> Really, I don't see why Empaths should have to periodically relocate in their own guildhall for the convenience of AFK scripters.

Most don't. Let that sink in. Most put up with it or are happy about it, but at the end of the day, scripters will follow the people. Teaching makes that worthwhile.

> In my experience, the shorter the directions, the better.

Again, TGSE solves that today. It's where new players start. It's where the divine charm takes them back to, and it gives you the protections you're looking for. You don't even have to ruin other people's preferences, and with effort, you may be able to shift the gathering spots to this location.

> Many returning players seem to remember things like "go to the Empaths' Guild to get healed,"

Those returning players are used to the empath guild changing. They also may remember the other scripting spots that were mentioned previously.

> I'm all for improving awareness of the divine charm -- and a pulsing notice would be a great way to do it -- but I don't see this as being an either/or issue,

I agree with this, but there's only so many ways you can skin the cat before you accept that it doesn't need any more skinning.

Again though, the point is that this is a highly public space that the community who uses it outside AFK scripting purposes is asking for help in keeping the AFK scripters out. Part of what has attracted those scripters in the first place is the myriad conveniences the room(s) represent. Remove those conveniences and they'll go elsewhere. That is the point. That is the request. Lets stop goalshifting around 'but people will still script' or 'but people may still not want to seek healing out one west'.

Given the propensity for the DR player base to extraordinarily poorly police it's own, this seems like an extremely reasonable and polite way of doing things.

I can only speak for myself, but I've stopped going to the Empath Guild due to the influx of AFK scripters and healbots. I fully endorse Sarkranis' suggestions; I think it's a great idea to make the Empath Guild less appealing for general scripting and more appealing for healing.