>> There is a small group of posters- Galren, Caelumia, Strange, yourself and a few others who enjoy initiating conflict and bringing it to a violent end- and you feel that not only are you reported in error too often- you also feel that this is a game-wide problem of epic proportions.

These days I don't really feel like I initiate conflict as often as it gets initiated with me when I am quite frankly either minding my own business, interacting with friends or trying to be helpful in some way. I don't even really like to CvC/PvP as often as people seem to think I do or as often as my posts might convey. It does occasionally cross that line but I give people a lot more leeway than I used to, in part because I don't want to deal with the possible policy and other OOC issues. It's why I like tournaments so much - I don't have to worry about it. I can just go pwn people in the face (and get pwned in turn) and it's all in good fun. Everyone kills or gets killed, gets healed and raised, and walks away at the end of the day with no hard feelings. I wish it was like that with the rest of DR.

Here's the kicker, Flavius, and here's where some of your logic breaks down - Just because they start it doesn't mean they can't and won't report you if it starts to go badly for them. This has happened to me countless times with more people than I would care to name. I don't know what kind of logic-free bubble someone has to live in to think it's right to go out of their way to pick a fight with someone and report the second that person retaliates, but it happens, and it happens more often than you seem to think. Some people even admit to doing this deliberately to get people they don't like in trouble and possibly locked out.

That and the situation I described in my last post is what we mean when we say people abuse report. We might not even be so irritated by it if it didn't seem to work so often in favor of the one doing the reporting.

Luckily people like Galren and Vinjince and I have learned to play extra carefully by policy. Yes, this means sometimes we have to go that extra step to get someone to hand us ironclad consent so we can make sure our asses are covered if they decide to report. Yes, it probably looks bad when we do this, but it's better than the alternative. We're just operating under the conditions other people have created.

---

Rev. Reene

Syralon whispers to your group, "Gentlemen, to evil!"

Gang,

Address the points of a post without the sarcastic commentary at each other, further posts of this style will be removed.

You're going around in circles at this point on reporting and consent and I don't quite see how this is anything to do with how to stay in policy while Role playing evil.



Annwyl
Senior Board Monitor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing Senior Board Monitor DR-Annwyl@play.net, or Message Board Supervisor DR-Cecco@play.net.

"Here's the kicker, Flavius, and here's where some of your logic breaks down - Just because they start it doesn't mean they can't and won't report you if it starts to go badly for them. This has happened to me countless times with more people than I would care to name. I don't know what kind of logic-free bubble someone has to live in to think it's right to go out of their way to pick a fight with someone and report the second that person retaliates, but it happens, and it happens more often than you seem to think. Some people even admit to doing this deliberately to get people they don't like in trouble and possibly locked"

I am not sure how that breaks down my logic. I believe you when you say that you have experienced folks who start conflicts and then when it goes south they report you. I believe you when you say that there are people who report maliciously. I will say it again- I am against malicious reporting. Just as I said when I agreed with the original poster- I believe report should be used as a last resort. Personally I have never used Report for an ingame conflict- I am more than willing to if I felt it warrented- but I have never felt the need.

"Luckily people like Galren and Vinjince and I have learned to play extra carefully by policy. Yes, this means sometimes we have to go that extra step to get someone to hand us ironclad consent so we can make sure our asses are covered if they decide to report."

Sounds smart to me.


"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

I don't have to be OOC disruptive to be told to cut something out. I just explained that. All it takes is a group of people willing to report me for something, anything that they don't like.

---

Rev. Reene

<Reene> I'd temp shift Cael to S'kra!
<Reene> LET'S MAKE BABIES TORT <3 <3
<Tortolia> I'm glad I know you're kidding or this would be a very uncomfortable conversation

I'm not really all THAT careful when it comes to covering my butt. I just draw the line in the sand early enough and make sure they clearly cross it.

The problem is, regardless of me being careful and at least making sure I have a case if things turn violent, I STILL get reported pretty much in every conflict.

Kudos to Ladicius for not reporting me after I jacked his backpack during a rummage sale. Tell me, how many of you would have reported me if I stole YOUR backpack off the ground.

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

>You need to stop assuming folks who play this game genuinely want to hurt you, the player behind the character. Most folks do have a conscience... even I.

There are also quite a number of people playing this game that don't. Some extend it only to the game sphere: they feel that nothing that happens in the game is "real" so they do not need to curb their more negative behaviors at all in game. They make little or no attempt to RP. In fact, they are often the most guilty of making OOC references.

Others who play this game do not seem to have ANY conscience. This game has spawned real-life stalking, attempts (successful and otherwise) to break up real-life marriages and relationships, and harassment, etc. I know of one case where the children of a player received a truly evil phone call.

This game is not some sort of Paradise when no one has anything but the most benevolent motivations. It's a lot like real-life: there are good people, bad people, good people who do bad things, bad people who do good things, and every shade of grey in between.

You seem to be condemning people for not assuming that all interaction, regardless of how threatening it is, is motivated by some kind of character-driven RP. But you have no way of knowing this. And there are lots of cases where, no matter how long you allow the negative behavior to go on, it will never turn into brilliant RP. In the vast majority of cases, it won't even turn into vaguely interesting RP. There are just some people out there determined to be jerks. And giving them enough rope to hang you (since, without reporting, they almost never hang themselves) is not always the best thing to do. In some isolated cases, it's actually dangerous. And it really should not be your or my decision what measures people take, short of causing verifiable HARM to us, to keep themselves safe--or at least feeling safe.

You have made the decision to play an "evil" (or at least short-tempered character). I think that's great and I appreciate the effort. Part of WHY I appreciate it is that I understand that, in doing so, not only do you add color to our world, you run the risk of wasting time dealing with reports. It's great that you made this decision, KNOWING that this would be part of the downside of doing so. But you knew going in that this was the price.

Sure, some of the people making those reports don't understand that this is all in good fun for you and you intend no actual harm--that you offer it as something to enjoy. I fully believe that ALL reports against you may be unfounded. What I have a problem with is when you extrapolate from YOUR motivations what the motivations of all other players of characters who exhibit negative or criminal behaviors are. You may well be an extremely good person in real-life. But you have absolutely no way of knowing that anyone else who you have not met personally (and even in those cases you may be mistaken) is an equally good person with similarly benign motivations.

So basically, what you are arguing, as far as I can tell, is that REPORT should be changed because you are a good and decent person and so, when used against you, it is an abuse.

That's not going to work because everyone is not like you. More's the pity.



Player of Silvanne, Maiamo Heruaminen Khandrishen

A protagonist must have an antagonist. Otherwise he's just a guy playing with himself.

">>So basically, what you are arguing, as far as I can tell, is that REPORT should be changed because you are a good and decent person and so, when used against you, it is an abuse.

Bingo. Look at the past post of my warning records.

I have logs of over 15 different GM consults and ZERO pvp warnings. I'm no statistician but I'm starting to see a pattern here."


Okay- I like this because you have narrowed the scope down to a specific issue: I want report changed because Reports are being used unfairly against me.

However, just because there have been 15 consults with no warnings does not by itself mean that all 15 were frivolous. I would assume at least some were malicious- knowing our playerbase. But its certainly not a given. When I look at the pattern I see:
a) this guy sure gets reported alot
b) none of the reports violated policy

Then the question is- is your behavior technically within policy yet still disruptive to the game atmosphere? Thats for DR to decide.

>>That's not going to work because everyone is not like you. >>More's the pity.

"Maybe its just the circle I run in but I've got a lot of folks who can back me up and provide support for my argument."

I would suspect that this is a real issue- just as the people I hang out with tend not to get reported, and therefore are more likely to complain about jerks who try to bully them or others into CvCviolence- your circle may end up being reported more often. I understand you consider this a problem for you- but it certainly isn't a concern for me or my friends. We are more concerned with those who want try to start violence when we aren't interested, and annoying things like graverobbery. I suppose I could advocate for changes in policy to address these issues, but frankly even they aren't deal breakers for me.


"Frivolous reporting should result in a warning. I've had GMs even sympathize with me wishing there was something they could do -- they just want the useless reports to end."

I have no problem with that. If it serves Simu's best interest I would imagine they will do that eventually. Of course they also may decide to put pressure on players who generate undue amount of reports- if they feel that is in their best business interest.

"The only change I want to see to REPORT is that folks who abuse it can get warnings and have the ability to report potentially removed. I liken this to folks who spill coffee on themselves then sue because they were too clumsy to hold their coffee."

Since we are using real life examples- lets first of all acknowledge that all players in DR are customers of Simu. Now to use a real life example- there is a drug store in my neighborhood that had a problem with a homeless guy who would come in almost every day. He would get into arguments with the Customers, get into arguements with the clerks, be in the store for an hour before buying a soda and leaving. The cops were called several times because of the arguments, but there were no laws being broken, so he was never arrested or taken into custody. Eventually the store banned him. They were losing customers and man-hours because of his behavior so they notified him in front of police that he was banned from the store, and that he would be arrested for trespass if he returned. They made a business decision to ban one customer in order to keep the majority of the customers happy. Businesses can do that.




"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"

>>Now to use a real life example- there is a drug store in my neighborhood that had a problem with a homeless guy who would come in almost every day. He would get into arguments with the Customers, get into arguements with the clerks, be in the store for an hour before buying a soda and leaving.

Not even remotely the same thing but I'll buy into it for the sake of this discussion.

>>The cops were called several times because of the arguments, but there were no laws being broken, so he was never arrested or taken into custody. Eventually the store banned him. They were losing customers and man-hours because of his behavior so they notified him in front of police that he was banned from the store, and that he would be arrested for trespass if he returned. They made a business decision to ban one customer in order to keep the majority of the customers happy. Businesses can do that.

Alright, where to start. First, my analogy pertained to folks not wanting to take responsibility for themselves and their actions and seeking to blame/get others in trouble due to their own inability to cope or handle a situation.

I see nothing wrong with your scenario because the hobo was causing a ruckus and he is responsible for the owner's lost income. Everything boils down to ownership and responsibility. You own your body and are therefore responsible for it.

Let me restate your scenario in a different way to prove my point.

The hobo owns himself and is therefore responsible for himself and his actions. If his actions negatively effect the store, its owner and his potential earnings then the hobo needs to be held accountable for it. Now lets say the hobo runs into the store, starts screaming at customers and then the HOBO calls the cops wanting the person arguing with him to be removed.

Do you see what I am getting at? Now lets apply this to DR. I own my character. Galren is responsible in game for his words and his actions. This is fine and as it should be. In DR, just like in the real world, I can insult you. I can mock you, I can try to steal your wallet, etc. Each of those actions will carry with it a re-action. If I insult you passing you on the street are you going to sucker punch me? Are you going to call the cops? Are you going to ignore me? (THIS IS A VIABLE RESPONSE FOLKS) You get to decide your re-action.

The question here isn't whether or not my initial action was morally right or justified. I knew what I was doing. I made the decision to insult you and now I must take responsibility. So be it.

Now going back to the reaction part. Lets resume the scenario that I just insulted you on the street. You now call the cops. How do you think the cops will react? You're wasting their time calling them out there to handle a verbal squabble. Chances are you are gonna find yourself with a very unhappy cop.

Now in DR, things can escalate a lot quicker than they might in the real world.. We have rules of engagement in DR. If I draw a line in the sand, and I warn you not to cross it, but you do anyways, you will be held responsible for your actions. This is where we have the fundamental break down in the conversation and folks just don't get it.

Folks call the GMs at the slightest hint of a conflict. Folks will take an action and then, when the re-action comes, they do not want to deal with it. Is it always this way? No. Do I see this happen a lot? You bet.

In DR we can kill each other without any real serious damage being done. We can be the bad guy and ROLE PLAY. I can't do that in real life. Why? Because I'm afraid if I insult the wrong person I might get a re-action I don't want.

IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE READ THIS LINE.

"Galren ALWAYS takes responsibility for his actions IN GAME. The "IN GAME" portion of that line is critical. When folks can no longer take responsibility for their actions IN GAME then we have a problem. Especially when report is being used in such a manner."

-Galren Moonskin

!>You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde screaming in barbaric approval of your deeds.

<<If you don't want to deal with that downside, then Reene could become a reformed character.>>

The downside of playing an evil or otherwise bad character should not be that people flagrantly misuse the report feature because of 'you'.

---

I've lived in darkness a long time. Over the years my eyes adjusted until the dark became my world and I could see.

>>But YOU made that decision. I didn't, and your potential "victims" didn't. But you are pointing the finger of blame at others because you don't not like the downside of the choice you made.

What about my situation?

My character isn't evil. He isn't mean. He's friendly and nice. He's a "might makes right" kind of person.

Ever see the badass guys in movies that would rather settle something with swords than argue and babble for such a long time? That's what kind of person my character is.

Now, you're saying I CHOSE to RP him this way, so I should expect the downside of other characters not being able to cope, and therefore resorting to a completely OOC manner by reporting and actively trying to get me locked out of the game?

Because I choose to RP him that way, shouldn't the drawbacks be IC, as opposed to OOC, as long as I'm completely within policy? (not riding the fine line of consent, not skimming the edge, not skating on thin ice)

Does this or does this not limit and almost force people to RP a certain way? Is this good?

Read this next line please.

Can someone truly and consistently RP an evil character in a great fashion without being forced to take the blame for frivolous reports?

Vinjince

---

"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi

>The cops were called several times because of the arguments, but there were no laws being broken, so he was never arrested or taken into custody. Eventually the store banned him. They were losing customers and man-hours because of his behavior so they notified him in front of police that he was banned from the store, and that he would be arrested for trespass if he returned. They made a business decision to ban one customer in order to keep the majority of the customers happy. Businesses can do that.

The way I see it, the homeless guy could be a metaphor for a "griefer" or a "frivolous reporter". "They were losing customers and man-hours because of his behavior..." The game loses man-hours due to frivolous reports based off of completely policy-abiding actions - the ones causing the problems are the reporters in these cases. If an action violates policy and you want to report it, feel free; I don't encourage it, but that's your right. When people start reporting because somebody tells them they have a stupid name, somebody insults their race, somebody tells them ICly that they are a bad mother and should not be allowed to bear children (happened to me - I was reported for "sexual harrassment" - don't ask me how they came up with that one), then it's the reporters who are causing the loss of production for the game and ruining the experience for the majority of customers.

The people who chose to take on the hardcore RP personas - AKA the "Tis't" "Thusly" "Snookypookiewookybear" "Tae'ist" folks - oddly are very often the first to report in the event that somebody's in-character, in-policy, in-game actions annoy them. I'm not talking about CvC with this, either. I'm talking about normal interactions, a few examples of which I've listed above. I really believe there should be consequences for repeated frivolous reporting - consequences that are actually enforced.




________
Re: Life mana Spell preps

You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.

Galren, I think one reason why people don't have more sympathy for what you're talking about is experiences with true griefers. I'm talking about the people who go to goblins or rock trolls at 80th circle just looking to pick on someone. That is pretty ridiculous.

<<Because I choose to RP him that way, shouldn't the drawbacks be IC, as opposed to OOC, as long as I'm completely within policy? (not riding the fine line of consent, not skimming the edge, not skating on thin ice)

Unfortunately, not everyone wants to RP conflict, so an unsolicited RP conflict with expectation of an IC response, even if one option is something as simple as walking away, can certainly make the player feel like they are being put upon in an OOC way since it is not part of what they consider 'fun'. Also equally unfortunate, however, is that some of these players automatically jump to the final recourse of report for those times when it truly becomes an harassment. These two views on conflict, and consequently any RP attached to it, are polar opposites and I don't foresee them ever mixing well. The frivolous reporters, however, are not one and the same with those who don't want to RP conflict.

Two of the solutions presented so far completely quell one sides enjoyment or the other while doing nothing to address the problem reporters, making neither viable options. "Don't RP conflict of any kind without obtaining explicit verbal consent" is a real downer to those who love to spontaneously RP conflicts of any kind. On the other hand, "Conflict happens, deal with it" is equally odious to those who don't want to conflict at all and feel like they're being forced into it. And of course neither deals with the issue of frivolous reporting or the grey areas inbetween the two extremes.

I think the RP flags suggested would go a long way to providing at least guidance to those who relish RP conflict as well as a means of notification for those who don't wish that kind of conflict. They certainly won't be perfect, but it would give the GMs a tool to better define, and thus better police, frivolous reports since setting a flag would imply that consent was given in advance. I lean towards having these flags displayed in an OOC manner since an IC flag would be open to more interpretation, and consequently confusion as to what is or is not desired by the flag-setter.

Of course the flags wouldn't be of use in every situation. They certainly wouldn't be of use in situations like these (not word for word):
BigBritchesBarb: (moments after walking into the empath guild) Someone heal me.
You arch your eyebrow.
BigBritchesBarb: Are you an empath?
MyEmpath: Yes.
BigBritchesBarb: Heal me. Now.
MyEmpath: Why would anyone want to heal someone so rude?
You snort.
BigbritchesBarb: You're not going to heal me?
MyEmpath: Of course not. Go bother someone else.
You mutter into the air something about idiots.
A few minutes pass... and a GM pulls me into a consult, my one and only dealing with REPORT, because this guy reported me over it. But, regardless of situations like those, even if a flag system can help clarify a single conflict it would be of worth in my eyes.

-Evran

<<Dartenian says, "Welcome to the Bard Meeting! Tonight's agenda will consist primarily of finalizing our plans for global conquest."

>Being reported for playing within the rules does not mean that I had it coming for playing an evil character.

Never said that it did. Said it increased your chances of being reported. Please stick to what I said.

>What you and most everyone else hate about my character is that I know how to push the right buttons to get the reaction I want. Call it baiting. Its within the rules and acceptable. You can't handle it.

Please point to where I said I hate your character. I don't have any issue at ALL with your character. But the fact that you take offense so easily at imagined slights makes me question your judgement in general.

Also, if you've been playing an evil character for a long time and you've only been reported 15 times, I'd say that that's not too bad. It's certainly not "every time" as you said earlier, because I know that Galren has been a bastard more than 15 times. :)

Player of Silvanne, Maiamo Heruaminen Khandrishen

A protagonist must have an antagonist. Otherwise he's just a guy playing with himself.

<<>>Unfortunately, not everyone wants to RP conflict

<<Then they should handle it in character and not further provoke someone who is already looking for a fight.

But the rest of that quote was:

<<so an unsolicited RP conflict with expectation of an IC response, even if one option is something as simple as walking away, can certainly make the player feel like they are being put upon in an OOC way since it is not part of what they consider 'fun'.

The catch there is that everytime someone who doesn't like to RP conflict gets solicited in some way for such conflict pretty much has to physically walk away everytime or get involved. Neither of those is particularily great in that person's view. From the perspective of this person, this is an OOC situation if the RP was truly unsolicited. Herein lies the great divide between the two sides. One side saying its just IC RP, the other saying its ruining their OOC fun. Both are valid, but they obviously don't mix well.

That said, I agree that further provocation on the part of the one who doesn't want conflict is just a bad thing to do since it inherently involves them in that conflict. A simple OOC whisper at the beginning of the situation would defuse most of these situations without the need to go separate ways.

Unfortunately, I think education and knowledge is the lacking factor here. Nowhere in the ASSIST/REPORT help info is there any mention of the OOC verb. One thought I had to encourage the use of the OOC verb or even the WARN verb would be to add info on them to the REPORT and ASSIST information you get when just typing those commands alone. Something along the lines of "Similar to a whisper, OOC <person> <message> should be used as a first resort to let a player know that you as a player don't wish to interact with them if you feel you are being harassed." At the very least this would make people aware of the options other than REPORT available to them.

The problems with REPORT aren't going to go away, however, no matter what steps are taken. One just needs to look at real life 911 calls to see that some people consider anything worthy of reporting to authorities. There was a story a few years back I read about a woman who called 911 because she was getting ready for a big dinner party that evening and her 'emergency' was that she had run out of sugar and didn't have time to go to the store and get it. As yes, she was fined for it.

-Evran

<<Dartenian says, "Welcome to the Bard Meeting! Tonight's agenda will consist primarily of finalizing our plans for global conquest."

>>One thought I had to encourage the use of the OOC verb or even the WARN verb would be to add info on them to the REPORT and ASSIST information you get when just typing those commands alone.

Hey that's a very fine idea. If it was encouraged to use the OOC and warn verbs more often when you don't want to be in a conflict then it may help to reduce not-needed reports a little bit.


Vinjince

---

"There are five possible operations for any army. If you can fight, fight; if you cannot fight, defend; if you cannot defend, flee; if you cannot flee, surrender; if you cannot surrender, die."

- Sima Yi

I never thought Id be so happy to see a thread end