Is there a reason these are public? It seems little more than a convenient tool for psychopaths and an invitation to mech abuse. What would be lost if it functioned precisely as it does now(open for stealing, etc.), but was not made public unless you chose to publish it?
BOBTHESNOB5515
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 07:32 AM CST
How would it be different? Policy players wouldn't publish theirs, it would be the new 'unless you're open you're a reporting master and I won't play with you', swapping 'open' for 'published'.
Plus it gives people the ability to >profile bob and see if bob is in fact going to respond X, Y, or Z way, which was the intention of the system.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Plus it gives people the ability to >profile bob and see if bob is in fact going to respond X, Y, or Z way, which was the intention of the system.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 07:58 AM CST
>How would it be different?
I mentioned two ways in my original post, which I guess does sort of boil down to one: folks would need to muster a legitimate reason to kill one another.
>Policy players wouldn't publish theirs, it would be the new 'unless you're open you're a reporting master and I won't play with you', swapping 'open' for 'published'.
Policy players would be hamstrung by the fact that if they do steal, or are necromancers, or have behaved in a way that grants consent, their pvp flag would reflect that. They wouldn't be able to hide behind policy, because they were open!
For example: Say I steal from person X. That sets me to open. Now any other person who may have witnessed it can exact vengence, and I have no policy recourse. The difference is that person X can't circumvent the IG contest by checking my profile.
>Plus it gives people the ability to >profile bob and see if bob is in fact going to respond X, Y, or Z way, which was the intention of the system.
Could you elaborate on this part? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Thanks!
I mentioned two ways in my original post, which I guess does sort of boil down to one: folks would need to muster a legitimate reason to kill one another.
>Policy players wouldn't publish theirs, it would be the new 'unless you're open you're a reporting master and I won't play with you', swapping 'open' for 'published'.
Policy players would be hamstrung by the fact that if they do steal, or are necromancers, or have behaved in a way that grants consent, their pvp flag would reflect that. They wouldn't be able to hide behind policy, because they were open!
For example: Say I steal from person X. That sets me to open. Now any other person who may have witnessed it can exact vengence, and I have no policy recourse. The difference is that person X can't circumvent the IG contest by checking my profile.
>Plus it gives people the ability to >profile bob and see if bob is in fact going to respond X, Y, or Z way, which was the intention of the system.
Could you elaborate on this part? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Thanks!
ILLIENA
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 08:02 AM CST
> Could you elaborate on this part? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Thanks!
The whole point of the pvp-stance system is to be a way to give information to other players. It's a way of saying, "This is the sort of interaction I'm okay with." Making them hidden would completely defeat the purpose.
The whole point of the pvp-stance system is to be a way to give information to other players. It's a way of saying, "This is the sort of interaction I'm okay with." Making them hidden would completely defeat the purpose.
GERSTEINJ2
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 08:02 AM CST
<<Policy players would be hamstrung by the fact that if they do steal, or are necromancers, or have behaved in a way that grants consent, their pvp flag would reflect that.>>
"Guarded" is an option for necromancers as well. There are players that prefer to exact their fury on critters, not on other players.
An arisen dummy zombie bellows, "You will all be ssslaughtered!"
>
"Guarded" is an option for necromancers as well. There are players that prefer to exact their fury on critters, not on other players.
An arisen dummy zombie bellows, "You will all be ssslaughtered!"
>
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 08:24 AM CST
>The whole point of the pvp-stance system is to be a way to give information to other players.
I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system. I think it's certainly one valuable benefit, but I fail to see how that being eradicated would "completely defeat the purpose" of pvp flags.
I think we should weigh this (and any other benefit as yet unmentioned) against the practical reality of random assassinations and mech abuse. Is there perhaps not a better way to get this information from other players?
Tried asking?
I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system. I think it's certainly one valuable benefit, but I fail to see how that being eradicated would "completely defeat the purpose" of pvp flags.
I think we should weigh this (and any other benefit as yet unmentioned) against the practical reality of random assassinations and mech abuse. Is there perhaps not a better way to get this information from other players?
Tried asking?
TILTINGVAGABOND
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 08:50 AM CST
rant/
I have been open by choice since the stances first came out. I'm by no means a huggie-smoochie player, and I'm sure I have a fair share of people that don't like me both IG and on the boards.
I talk a fair amount of smack that my character has no way of backing up and that's the way I like to play.
I have only been the victim of ONE random beat down in this entire time. Every other time, I deserved it (truth be told, I probably deserved it the one time too, I just don't know why).
While a lot of people like to play the victim, the truth is that there is a little bit of snert in everyone once in a while. Just because the person doesn't kill you right away, or you get "randomly" ganked 3 days later, I think people have very short memories when it comes to "did I deserve that?".
And again, unless you are getting graved-robbed, or chain killed - so freaking what? It's a bunch of 0's and 1's. Get a life, be an adult, tell the person "Good one", type DEPART FULL and go about your business.
Ugh, it's amazing that a game with 80+% adults playing needs more policy than a 1st grade playground.
/rant
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
I have been open by choice since the stances first came out. I'm by no means a huggie-smoochie player, and I'm sure I have a fair share of people that don't like me both IG and on the boards.
I talk a fair amount of smack that my character has no way of backing up and that's the way I like to play.
I have only been the victim of ONE random beat down in this entire time. Every other time, I deserved it (truth be told, I probably deserved it the one time too, I just don't know why).
While a lot of people like to play the victim, the truth is that there is a little bit of snert in everyone once in a while. Just because the person doesn't kill you right away, or you get "randomly" ganked 3 days later, I think people have very short memories when it comes to "did I deserve that?".
And again, unless you are getting graved-robbed, or chain killed - so freaking what? It's a bunch of 0's and 1's. Get a life, be an adult, tell the person "Good one", type DEPART FULL and go about your business.
Ugh, it's amazing that a game with 80+% adults playing needs more policy than a 1st grade playground.
/rant
Player of Diggan, Ranger & Halfing of Aesry
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 08:58 AM CST
>Ugh, it's amazing that a game with 80+% adults playing needs more policy than a 1st grade playground.
When did randomly killing a stranger become adult behavior? When did being unhappy with being killed randomly by a stranger become a childish reaction?
When did randomly killing a stranger become adult behavior? When did being unhappy with being killed randomly by a stranger become a childish reaction?
SULLIVANS3
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 09:10 AM CST
>When did randomly killing a stranger become adult behavior? When did being unhappy with being killed randomly by a stranger become a childish reaction?
As soon as we started playing a multi-player, role playing GAME.
Random kills do happen, I don't think anyone disputes that, but they are not as big of an issue as it sometimes seems. Like anything else, you hear/read about the negative much more than anything positive. A random kill or two (mind you, I'm not talking about any sort of actual 'harassment' here) does not and should not ruin anyone's gaming experience. Does everyone have to love it? Of course not, but the penalties from death, from a mechanical stand point, are so minor that it's hardly a bump in the road.
We can't control what other people do, but we can absolutely control our reactions to it. As long as the PvP stances/profiles exist, I don't think changing the visibility of it will really have the positive affect you are envisioning.
~Katt
A gestalt draugen swipes a hooked leonine claw at Silus. The claw lands a solid hit that cuts deeply into his groin!
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 09:17 AM CST
>And again, unless you are getting graved-robbed, or chain killed - so freaking what? It's a bunch of 0's and 1's. Get a life, be an adult, tell the person "Good one", type DEPART FULL and go about your business.
My novice sitting outside empaths learning his first ranks in MD. Sniped from nowhere, no interaction. Just a flex kill on someone with the novice pretitle. Hadn't said more than 10 words or been in existence more than 20 minutes.
That was enough for me to go no to. It's frustrating and serves no purpose but to let idiots flex on people they know they can harass without risk.
Also, the 'people locked open will be visibly so', uh, dude, they already are. Type profile in game for people and you see their stance. If they are open by choice or mechanics, they are listed as open. Your suggestion would just add another fairly pointless layer.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
My novice sitting outside empaths learning his first ranks in MD. Sniped from nowhere, no interaction. Just a flex kill on someone with the novice pretitle. Hadn't said more than 10 words or been in existence more than 20 minutes.
That was enough for me to go no to. It's frustrating and serves no purpose but to let idiots flex on people they know they can harass without risk.
Also, the 'people locked open will be visibly so', uh, dude, they already are. Type profile in game for people and you see their stance. If they are open by choice or mechanics, they are listed as open. Your suggestion would just add another fairly pointless layer.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 09:34 AM CST
>>I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system.
It's pretty much the whole point. The entire basis behind the profile system is to provide other players with information about your character and your gameplay style.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
It's pretty much the whole point. The entire basis behind the profile system is to provide other players with information about your character and your gameplay style.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 09:50 AM CST
>I don't think changing the visibility of it will really have the positive affect you are envisioning.
Maybe it won't. It just appears to me that in combatting one type of policy player, we have created another. We have traded whiny for brutish. Now maybe this is simply an intractable paradigm, and we must have one or the other, but maybe not; maybe there is a better way somewhere in between. That was the spirit behind my post.
Thanks for listening, and thank you for the thoughtful responses!
Maybe it won't. It just appears to me that in combatting one type of policy player, we have created another. We have traded whiny for brutish. Now maybe this is simply an intractable paradigm, and we must have one or the other, but maybe not; maybe there is a better way somewhere in between. That was the spirit behind my post.
Thanks for listening, and thank you for the thoughtful responses!
REASONMJ
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 10:00 AM CST
>The whole point of the pvp-stance system is to be a way to give information to other players.
>I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system.
Actually yes, that IS the entire point of the pvp flag system. We already had a system where pvp flags were not published, and everyone was assumed Closed until they were proven to be Open (only to the specific player they stole from, attacked, badmouthed, etc). Then they implemented published pvp flags so that you can CHOOSE to let the whole world know that you are pvp open, if that is something you would like to do
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
>I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system.
Actually yes, that IS the entire point of the pvp flag system. We already had a system where pvp flags were not published, and everyone was assumed Closed until they were proven to be Open (only to the specific player they stole from, attacked, badmouthed, etc). Then they implemented published pvp flags so that you can CHOOSE to let the whole world know that you are pvp open, if that is something you would like to do
Apu
_
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Apu
RAIST
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 04:49 PM CST
>The whole point of the pvp-stance system is to be a way to give information to other players.
>I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system.
From http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Set_It_and_(Don%27t!)_Forget_It!_-_10/27/2011_-_21:14:
"PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools, but it offers an extensive list of options for telling others about your character (and you the player!) at a glance. It also allows you to get an idea about those you interact with. You can set your roleplay and PvP stances, where you generally reside, a quote and more. To view another player's info (if they set it), use PROFILE {NAME}."
I don't have the original release post, because I don't think we were archiving posts at that point.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
>I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system.
From http://elanthipedia.org/w/index.php/Post:Set_It_and_(Don%27t!)_Forget_It!_-_10/27/2011_-_21:14:
"PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools, but it offers an extensive list of options for telling others about your character (and you the player!) at a glance. It also allows you to get an idea about those you interact with. You can set your roleplay and PvP stances, where you generally reside, a quote and more. To view another player's info (if they set it), use PROFILE {NAME}."
I don't have the original release post, because I don't think we were archiving posts at that point.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
ISHARON
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 04:50 PM CST
>>Bobthesnob5515: What would be lost if it functioned precisely as it does now(open for stealing, etc.), but was not made public unless you chose to publish it?
What does it mean to be PvP Open if the flag is not visible to other players? If you are locked open, but no one can see that you're open, you're effectively guarded or closed. (The consequences for violating PvP policy can be severe, so most players would not treat someone as open unless they could see his PvP setting.)
>>Bobthesnob5515: I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system. I think it's certainly one valuable benefit, but I fail to see how that being eradicated would "completely defeat the purpose" of pvp flags.
"PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools, but it offers an extensive list of options for telling others about your character (and you the player!) at a glance. It also allows you to get an idea about those you interact with." --DR-Zadraes
"Closed and Guarded are currently defined as informational, meant to inform other players about your preferences. Only the Open stance currently has policy considerations." --DR-Armifer
>>Bobthesnob5515: When did randomly killing a stranger become adult behavior? When did being unhappy with being killed randomly by a stranger become a childish reaction?
You should stay PvP Guarded or Closed and avoid actions that lock you open (such as stealing or gwethsmashing). That's a legitimate style of play, and most players will not think any worse of you for it.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
What does it mean to be PvP Open if the flag is not visible to other players? If you are locked open, but no one can see that you're open, you're effectively guarded or closed. (The consequences for violating PvP policy can be severe, so most players would not treat someone as open unless they could see his PvP setting.)
>>Bobthesnob5515: I don't think that's the "whole point" of the system. I think it's certainly one valuable benefit, but I fail to see how that being eradicated would "completely defeat the purpose" of pvp flags.
"PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools, but it offers an extensive list of options for telling others about your character (and you the player!) at a glance. It also allows you to get an idea about those you interact with." --DR-Zadraes
"Closed and Guarded are currently defined as informational, meant to inform other players about your preferences. Only the Open stance currently has policy considerations." --DR-Armifer
>>Bobthesnob5515: When did randomly killing a stranger become adult behavior? When did being unhappy with being killed randomly by a stranger become a childish reaction?
You should stay PvP Guarded or Closed and avoid actions that lock you open (such as stealing or gwethsmashing). That's a legitimate style of play, and most players will not think any worse of you for it.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 06:54 PM CST
>I don't think that's the "whole point" of the [pvp-stance] system.
>PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools
and
>I fail to see how [visible pvp stance portion of profile] being eradicated would "completely defeat the purpose" of *pvp flags*.
>PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools
Changes to how, when, and why you're set to open, what those stances mean regards policy and interaction, etc., wouldn't change simply because other people can't see them. That's not at all the same as the entire profile system (which has information like Roleplaying stance, Spouse info, and generic character information for rp purposes).
/resumedogpile
>PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools
and
>I fail to see how [visible pvp stance portion of profile] being eradicated would "completely defeat the purpose" of *pvp flags*.
>PROFILE is a newer addition to our tools
Changes to how, when, and why you're set to open, what those stances mean regards policy and interaction, etc., wouldn't change simply because other people can't see them. That's not at all the same as the entire profile system (which has information like Roleplaying stance, Spouse info, and generic character information for rp purposes).
/resumedogpile
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 07:30 PM CST
>I've made what I think is a thoughtful suggestion to combat a problem noone denies
Except several people did. And the pointed out that your suggestion A) wouldn't change anything. At all. It would function mechanicall identically to now, B) doesn't adress anything anyway.
>This goon squad act is unnecessary, and imputations of cowardice are ironic at best.
When in doubt, insult everyone who disagrees with you, even if you have to make up insults to be offended by.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Except several people did. And the pointed out that your suggestion A) wouldn't change anything. At all. It would function mechanicall identically to now, B) doesn't adress anything anyway.
>This goon squad act is unnecessary, and imputations of cowardice are ironic at best.
When in doubt, insult everyone who disagrees with you, even if you have to make up insults to be offended by.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
GRIM45
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 07:31 PM CST
>>I've made what I think is a thoughtful suggestion to combat a problem noone denies,
Plenty of people deny it. Mainly because those who claim it exists are mostly (not all) people who seem to shoot their mouth off and expect nothing to happen to them.
>>If you're tired of the discussion, recuse yourself and allow some new voices to weigh in. I'm terribly sorry this is all so boring, but just as I can control my setting, you can just...go read something else. I mean that in the nicest way possible.
But it's much more fun to point out the flaws in your posts and then try twist yourself into a pretzel to deny them.
>>Some of the responses have been bizarre, and some of you have even contradicted one another on some pretty major points.
Individuals are individual. News at 11.
>>This goon squad act is unnecessary, and imputations of cowardice are ironic at best.
Yes. We're all working together in secret to beat you down. You caught us.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
Plenty of people deny it. Mainly because those who claim it exists are mostly (not all) people who seem to shoot their mouth off and expect nothing to happen to them.
>>If you're tired of the discussion, recuse yourself and allow some new voices to weigh in. I'm terribly sorry this is all so boring, but just as I can control my setting, you can just...go read something else. I mean that in the nicest way possible.
But it's much more fun to point out the flaws in your posts and then try twist yourself into a pretzel to deny them.
>>Some of the responses have been bizarre, and some of you have even contradicted one another on some pretty major points.
Individuals are individual. News at 11.
>>This goon squad act is unnecessary, and imputations of cowardice are ironic at best.
Yes. We're all working together in secret to beat you down. You caught us.
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 07:33 PM CST
Grim you should be ashamed of yourself for quoting the same parts I did.
Or deeply embarassed for agreeing tangentally with me, cause that can't be healthy.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
Or deeply embarassed for agreeing tangentally with me, cause that can't be healthy.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
RAIST
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 07:39 PM CST
Okay, I'll try again.
The PvP part of the Profile system is a way for people to tell others how they want to be treated.
closed: I don't want to PvP.
guarded: I'm open to the idea, but on my terms.
open: Either I'm open to all combat, or something I've done has forced me to be open to all combat.
If you make that completely private, you basically turn it back into the old consent system. No one knows what you are and you can't tell them your preferences.
It would be useless, you'd be better off removing it entirely than making it private.
If you don't want to risk being randomly killed, then don't do things that make you open. Every method of being made open involves the player making a choice. If you are willing to inflict conflict on people without their involvement (PC stealing, gwethsmashing) then you had better be willing to have it done to you (PvP open).
It may not be a perfect system, but it's quite a bit better than the old one.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
The PvP part of the Profile system is a way for people to tell others how they want to be treated.
closed: I don't want to PvP.
guarded: I'm open to the idea, but on my terms.
open: Either I'm open to all combat, or something I've done has forced me to be open to all combat.
If you make that completely private, you basically turn it back into the old consent system. No one knows what you are and you can't tell them your preferences.
It would be useless, you'd be better off removing it entirely than making it private.
If you don't want to risk being randomly killed, then don't do things that make you open. Every method of being made open involves the player making a choice. If you are willing to inflict conflict on people without their involvement (PC stealing, gwethsmashing) then you had better be willing to have it done to you (PvP open).
It may not be a perfect system, but it's quite a bit better than the old one.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
BOBTHESNOB5515
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 08:14 PM CST
This is pointless. I've articulated my idea. Thanks for the responses (you know who you are helpful people).
BRYCOLE83
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 08:36 PM CST
Hi, I'm a new voice.
It sounds like you want the old style back with no profiles, except where someone was forced open.
It also sounds like you want this because you were open and got killed randomly. That is the entire point of open. An actual world without magical police GM, instead enforcement being turned over to the players. (except in harassment situations, etc.)
Of course there is still issues with closed/guarded attacking open players, but I believe there has been instances of closed/guarded being locked open for abusing this system.
There is also the hope that some day in the future attacking in PVP sets any person to open, much likethe stealing toggle.
And of course, I agree with most of the posts in the thread and will end with a quote.
>> If you don't like the risks associated with being PvP open, you have the power to change your setting.
It sounds like you want the old style back with no profiles, except where someone was forced open.
It also sounds like you want this because you were open and got killed randomly. That is the entire point of open. An actual world without magical police GM, instead enforcement being turned over to the players. (except in harassment situations, etc.)
Of course there is still issues with closed/guarded attacking open players, but I believe there has been instances of closed/guarded being locked open for abusing this system.
There is also the hope that some day in the future attacking in PVP sets any person to open, much likethe stealing toggle.
And of course, I agree with most of the posts in the thread and will end with a quote.
>> If you don't like the risks associated with being PvP open, you have the power to change your setting.
GRIM45
Re: Private PVP flag?
11/27/2012 09:13 PM CST
BTW, anyone taking Mr Snob seriously, here is the cause of this thread:
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/DragonRealms%20Policy%20Discussions/PvP%20combat%20policy/view/951
/thread
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/DragonRealms%20Policy%20Discussions/PvP%20combat%20policy/view/951
/thread
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors."
-Raesh
DR-ANNWYL
Re: Private PVP flag? ::Thread Over::
11/27/2012 09:21 PM CST
And this thread is over.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: Private PVP flag? ::Thread Over::
11/27/2012 09:33 PM CST
At home growing up, it was mom I feared, not dad. She threw things and hit me with things.
<looks up thread>
...I stand by that fear.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
<looks up thread>
...I stand by that fear.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
