I know this was discussed already back when reqs were first announced but I figure it's worth bringing up one more time before things go live in Prime. I'd like to suggest swapping the stealth and thievery requirements. Just about every aspect of our guild, both in the lore of our guild as well as mechanically, revolves around stealth. I agree that thievery should have a hard req of some sort, but I just think it makes much more sense for stealth to be the greater of the two.

~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss

>Isn't thievery the more guild-specific skill? I mean, 'everything' a cleric/WM does involves magic, but the lore-fu >for the guilds say that the guild-specific skill is theurgy (working with the gods) and summoning (working with the >elemental planes) even if they don't do that stuff 24/7.

Thievery = new stealing skill.

Backstab would be our guild-specific skill akin to theurgy and summoning. Oddly enough we don't have a hard req in it. Which, now that I think about it, seems odd.

~Minstrel Ascot, Bladesinger of M'riss

>My understanding is not all Thieves are supposed to be assassins so their not making any requirement, train or don't train as you feel your character should.

That's the issue. Your current guild skill does not define your guild.

Once it does, it may be made manditory.

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> My understanding was also that our guild skill of backstabbing was here to stay, they didn't even want to change the name despite a few suggestions that some of us felt fit better.

Thieves thieve. Their guild specific skill is so incredibly niche and specific to combat (and one, single, application thereof) with so many drawbacks, that frankly it would be them punting the guild across the 'shut up and die' finish line to force everyone to train it at guild primary rates.

It's sticking around because it is what it is, but the powers who be decided to use thievery because it's a more flexible measure of thieves then BS; and while not every thief is a ninja, every thief, er, thieves.

I could almost see it going either way, with BS or thievery being allowed, whichever is higher.

But overall, I think it was just a 'we're going to use this because for DR historically it's been done and we have far too many other irons in the fire right now, and this one works fine'. There's no way simple stealth will be the guilds hard req though, it's too generic, trained by too many other things. The other guild specific skills are entirely guild specific. Thanatology, Astrology, trading, etc.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

> Backstab should just get rolled into Thievery, it solves all problems.

I'm not sure I buy that the same skill I use to shoplift somehow applies to a combat move like backstab.

I mean, I sort of agree with you, it would fix stuff, but I'm not sure how it could possibly work.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

>>Backstab should just get rolled into Thievery, it solves all problems.

If backstab left the guild would need something new to replace it as their "only thieves can train this and do things from it" skill.

Thievery can't be that substitute, since other guilds are already capable of using it.

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When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/

>I think the thieves guild needs a conceptual rewrite, rather than a mechanical one. Ignoring the guild name (which is about as useful as trying to define barbarians by the guild name), it really needs to be decided what makes a thief. Only then can a guild skill be fully developed.

I think this is all accurate. The guild needs to be re-examined a bit as barbs were, and lore-d a bit. It has an interesting and diverse history, but it's sort of written itself into a corner.

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Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.

>>That's the issue. Your current guild skill does not define your guild.

That's basically it - Backstabbing isn't required because it's not part of the definition of being a thief. It's possible that future thief development might expand the definition of it, but for now it's going to stay.

>>Thievery vs Stealth

I have a hard time giving 'thievery' (literally: the skill of being a thief) lower ranking than stealth for circle reqs for thieves. Part of the renaming of Stealing was so that Thievery could be better-applied to a lot of thief-related things. I've got some killer ideas for how to use it in the future, but I have to get DR3 release first (and then finish a bottle of scotch in celebration).

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"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.