After talking to a couple of high level thieves it appears that this guild is going to take it up .... the backside in TDP loss from skill combines.
My thief will lose 4500 TDP as of today when 3.0 hits. Talked to another fellow with a high level thief and he stands to lose over 5k TDP. Asked someone else witha 100+ thief and he also said he will lose several K TDP.
I have tried with high level Ranger, Barb, War Mage, Paladin, Moon Mage, Empath and Trader and all of them will gain from several hundred to Moon Mage over 5k. Thief is the only one that loses a MOUNTAIN.
I am going to go out on the limb and suggest that this is due to sooo many survival skills being combined. Can anything be done about this?
Example my Hidding 1200 ranks. Stalking 1100. When combined I will only gain bonus bits for about 300 ranks in hiddnig rest will be lost and I will lose a TON of TDP for this one skill alone. Than there is Swimming/Climbing, Disarming/Lockpicking, Escaping going to tactics etc.
Any chance the Thief Guru can take a look at this and find out if all thieves are getting the Nerf bat hard on TDP or just high level ones?
THOMPSONM10
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 01:33 PM CST
>>When combined I will only gain bonus bits for about 300 ranks in hiddnig rest will be lost
Could you share your EXP BONUS message? That doen't sound accurate at all.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Could you share your EXP BONUS message? That doen't sound accurate at all.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
THOMPSONM10
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 01:40 PM CST
I am basing the 300 ranks off the statement made by a GM a while back that said Stalking will only bonus hidding by X% due to the fact that a lot of folks did not train Hidding but have a ton of Stalking ranks from Hunt verb used while in combat.
The above aside I lose 4500 TDP. That is a huge loss, talking to two other high leverl thiefs they also lose a ton of TDP. I checked with other high level characters from other guilds Thieves seem to be the only ones getting hit with a mass loss as far as I can tell. Did not check a Bard or Necromancer so cant speak for them.
Your Armor pool could fill 10 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 107 ranks.
Your Weapon pool could fill 21 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 43 ranks.
Your Magic pool could fill one empty skill to 4 ranks.
Your Survival pool could fill 102 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 147 ranks.
Your Lore pool could fill 83 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 150 ranks.
Hmm... ok can someone explain to me what above means? This is a language I do not comprehand. Please and thank you.
The above aside I lose 4500 TDP. That is a huge loss, talking to two other high leverl thiefs they also lose a ton of TDP. I checked with other high level characters from other guilds Thieves seem to be the only ones getting hit with a mass loss as far as I can tell. Did not check a Bard or Necromancer so cant speak for them.
Your Armor pool could fill 10 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 107 ranks.
Your Weapon pool could fill 21 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 43 ranks.
Your Magic pool could fill one empty skill to 4 ranks.
Your Survival pool could fill 102 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 147 ranks.
Your Lore pool could fill 83 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 150 ranks.
Hmm... ok can someone explain to me what above means? This is a language I do not comprehand. Please and thank you.
KROONERMANREVENGE
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 01:51 PM CST
Hiding stalking was: whichever is higher, with stalking counting up to 130% of hiding.
So 500 hide, 1 stalk? 500 stealth. 100 hiding, 500 stalk? 130 stealth.
This is because hunt trained a ton of free stalking ranks. You keep the bits etc, just if stalking is higher you only get stealth up to 130% of your hiding ranks.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
So 500 hide, 1 stalk? 500 stealth. 100 hiding, 500 stalk? 130 stealth.
This is because hunt trained a ton of free stalking ranks. You keep the bits etc, just if stalking is higher you only get stealth up to 130% of your hiding ranks.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 1834.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 01:52 PM CST
>>Your Survival pool could fill 102 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 147 ranks.
>>Hmm... ok can someone explain to me what above means? This is a language I do not comprehand. Please and thank you.
Just to use your survival one for example...
If I remember how to read it properly, the number of bonus "bits" you currently have in your survival pools could fill 102 skills with bits from 0-200 ranks, with one extra that goes from 0-147 ranks.
In other words, you have a lot of "bits" left over from this merger.
Now, what does this mean? It means that as long as you have those bonus "bits" just floating around, you learn survivals at a faster rate. Think of it as an always present RPA. You'll keep this RPA going until all those bonus "bits" are used up. Those bonus "bits" will help you earn back all those lost TDPs at a faster pace than normal.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
>>Hmm... ok can someone explain to me what above means? This is a language I do not comprehand. Please and thank you.
Just to use your survival one for example...
If I remember how to read it properly, the number of bonus "bits" you currently have in your survival pools could fill 102 skills with bits from 0-200 ranks, with one extra that goes from 0-147 ranks.
In other words, you have a lot of "bits" left over from this merger.
Now, what does this mean? It means that as long as you have those bonus "bits" just floating around, you learn survivals at a faster rate. Think of it as an always present RPA. You'll keep this RPA going until all those bonus "bits" are used up. Those bonus "bits" will help you earn back all those lost TDPs at a faster pace than normal.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
THOMPSONM10
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 02:00 PM CST
>>Those bonus "bits" will help you earn back all those lost TDPs at a faster pace than normal.
I sure hope so. Just looks to me that compared to other guilds even Rangers who are survival prime as well Thieves seem to suffer a mass TDP loss.
Lucky for me than that my Hidding is higher than my stalking. Hopefuly that means that all my 1100 ranks of stalking will convert into bonus bits.
I sure hope so. Just looks to me that compared to other guilds even Rangers who are survival prime as well Thieves seem to suffer a mass TDP loss.
Lucky for me than that my Hidding is higher than my stalking. Hopefuly that means that all my 1100 ranks of stalking will convert into bonus bits.
BEVERAGEK
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 02:11 PM CST
The TDP loss of Thieves is largely due to skill combines and not gaining any immediate magic skills in order to compensate, as was the case for Barbarians. I'd hypothesize that Traders who trained high survival or duplicate weapon skills would fall in the same boat.
However, once Thieves and Traders are eventually brought over into the magic system and are grandfathered magic ranks you should gain most of those TDPs back.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
However, once Thieves and Traders are eventually brought over into the magic system and are grandfathered magic ranks you should gain most of those TDPs back.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
TEVESHSZAT
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 02:11 PM CST
>>Just looks to me that compared to other guilds even Rangers who are survival prime as well Thieves seem to suffer a mass TDP loss.
Speaking entirely off the cuff here, but I'd guess that most guilds had their skill compression losses offset by what they gained under magic's expansions and mastery skills. If you're not a seriously focused weapon/armor trainer, the compressions of some weapons/armors were probably offset by the new mastery skills. Someone who lost tdps from teaching and scholarship compressing probably had it offset by tactics. Etc.
>>Lucky for me than that my Hidding is higher than my stalking.
If your stalking was 1,200 and your hiding was 1,100, you'd still be fine. The formula is that if your hiding is higher than your stalking, it goes off hiding. If your stalking is higher than your hiding, you get up to 130% of what your hiding is. 130% of 1,100 is 1,430, so you'd definitely be covered to having your full 1,200 stalking count.
>>Hopefuly that means that all my 1100 ranks of stalking will convert into bonus bits.
It does. Even in a situation where the your "130% of your hiding ranks" threshold isn't met, anything past that point would then also go into your bonus pool.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
Speaking entirely off the cuff here, but I'd guess that most guilds had their skill compression losses offset by what they gained under magic's expansions and mastery skills. If you're not a seriously focused weapon/armor trainer, the compressions of some weapons/armors were probably offset by the new mastery skills. Someone who lost tdps from teaching and scholarship compressing probably had it offset by tactics. Etc.
>>Lucky for me than that my Hidding is higher than my stalking.
If your stalking was 1,200 and your hiding was 1,100, you'd still be fine. The formula is that if your hiding is higher than your stalking, it goes off hiding. If your stalking is higher than your hiding, you get up to 130% of what your hiding is. 130% of 1,100 is 1,430, so you'd definitely be covered to having your full 1,200 stalking count.
>>Hopefuly that means that all my 1100 ranks of stalking will convert into bonus bits.
It does. Even in a situation where the your "130% of your hiding ranks" threshold isn't met, anything past that point would then also go into your bonus pool.
When in doubt, http://elanthipedia.org/
THOMPSONM10
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/26/2012 02:39 PM CST
>>However, once Thieves and Traders are eventually brought over into the magic system and are grandfathered magic ranks you should gain most of those TDPs back.
Hmm did nto think of that. That should help. My trader who is 136th gained several hundred TDP despite not having any "granfathered magic" ranks.
Speaking of that any "news" as to when Thief/Trader "Magic" abilites will be ready/released?
Hmm did nto think of that. That should help. My trader who is 136th gained several hundred TDP despite not having any "granfathered magic" ranks.
Speaking of that any "news" as to when Thief/Trader "Magic" abilites will be ready/released?
NELLO
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/27/2012 04:11 AM CST
>I have tried with high level Ranger, Barb, War Mage, Paladin, Moon Mage, Empath and Trader and all of them will gain from several hundred to Moon Mage over 5k.
What! No way! 5000??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRWGmBJbcw
-Rixie
What! No way! 5000??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRWGmBJbcw
-Rixie
GORTEOUS
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/27/2012 10:52 AM CST
>I have tried with high level Ranger, Barb, War Mage, Paladin, Moon Mage, Empath and Trader and all of them will gain from several hundred to Moon Mage over 5k.
I lost 4.6k prime-side - didn't get weapon expertise or w/e it's called grandfathered yet but the 800 IF grandfathering also offset the numbers. I'm prolly gonna be sittin 6-7k in the hole after that's all said and done. Also lost 5kish ranks.
The only person I can confirm losing more than myself is also a barb. Thief friend is only losing 2kish(hes been cranking weapons/armors like mad for the past few months).
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
I lost 4.6k prime-side - didn't get weapon expertise or w/e it's called grandfathered yet but the 800 IF grandfathering also offset the numbers. I'm prolly gonna be sittin 6-7k in the hole after that's all said and done. Also lost 5kish ranks.
The only person I can confirm losing more than myself is also a barb. Thief friend is only losing 2kish(hes been cranking weapons/armors like mad for the past few months).
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
URUTU
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/27/2012 01:36 PM CST
Losing a ton of TDPs and I doubt magic ranks will cover it.
Time Development Points: -6026
Only positive is overtraining Lore leaves me a ton of bonus bits:
Your Armor pool could fill 23 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 143 ranks.
Your Weapon pool could fill one empty skill to 147 ranks.
Your Magic pool could fill one empty skill to 26 ranks.
Your Survival pool could fill 73 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 187 ranks.
Your Lore pool could fill 113 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 71 ranks.
Probably would've been WAY worse if I had been like most thieves and kept my LE and ME close but I didn't. Thankfully I picked LE, brawling and comp bow to focus on.
Kaxis
>concentrate on my journey
You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.
Time Development Points: -6026
Only positive is overtraining Lore leaves me a ton of bonus bits:
Your Armor pool could fill 23 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 143 ranks.
Your Weapon pool could fill one empty skill to 147 ranks.
Your Magic pool could fill one empty skill to 26 ranks.
Your Survival pool could fill 73 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 187 ranks.
Your Lore pool could fill 113 empty skills to 200 ranks and one empty skill to 71 ranks.
Probably would've been WAY worse if I had been like most thieves and kept my LE and ME close but I didn't. Thankfully I picked LE, brawling and comp bow to focus on.
Kaxis
>concentrate on my journey
You are too busy concentrating on your journey to do that.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/27/2012 11:35 PM CST
>>My trader who is 136th gained several hundred TDP despite not having any "granfathered magic" ranks.
Almost every trader comes out on top with DR3 because for the first time ever, their guild reqs are of similar magnitude to those of every other guild. That means that because their skills get grandfathered to circle, they're gaining a TON of skills from that, which gives them TDPs.
It's true that thieves come out on the short end of the TDP stick in DR3, there's no way around it. Most of you trained most of the survival skills, which is contrary to how things went for the weapons that got combined. Rangers and Necros have their PM ranks split into the new skills as well, which gave them more TDPs. Thieves truly did end up with a bit of a crappy situation with regards to TDP. You WILL, however, have a huge number of ranks sitting in your bonus pools, which will help you earn new TDPs faster, and when the supernatural skills get applied to Khris (And grandfathered) you'll gain some of those TDPs back.
>>Speaking of that any "news" as to when Thief/Trader "Magic" abilites will be ready/released?
This is the only thing I will say about this in this thread: These abilities aren't slated for DR3, and discussion of them should go to the normal boards. We're all so focused on DR3 that we can't create a cogent game plan to tackle these things right now.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Almost every trader comes out on top with DR3 because for the first time ever, their guild reqs are of similar magnitude to those of every other guild. That means that because their skills get grandfathered to circle, they're gaining a TON of skills from that, which gives them TDPs.
It's true that thieves come out on the short end of the TDP stick in DR3, there's no way around it. Most of you trained most of the survival skills, which is contrary to how things went for the weapons that got combined. Rangers and Necros have their PM ranks split into the new skills as well, which gave them more TDPs. Thieves truly did end up with a bit of a crappy situation with regards to TDP. You WILL, however, have a huge number of ranks sitting in your bonus pools, which will help you earn new TDPs faster, and when the supernatural skills get applied to Khris (And grandfathered) you'll gain some of those TDPs back.
>>Speaking of that any "news" as to when Thief/Trader "Magic" abilites will be ready/released?
This is the only thing I will say about this in this thread: These abilities aren't slated for DR3, and discussion of them should go to the normal boards. We're all so focused on DR3 that we can't create a cogent game plan to tackle these things right now.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
TENHATSU
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/28/2012 03:31 AM CST
>>As that all sinks in, and I see 3.0 flying by leaving Thieves in the dust, very disappointed.
I know it sounds bad considering the TDP angle, but I'm pretty sure it will be addressed when 3.0 is finalized and they have time to come back and put it together without some poor band-aid type patching.
I also think that in the beginning only 150th circle thieves will really have the full power of Khris when this grandfathering goes in. Keep in mind that right now, Khri aren't reliant on skill, so you have abilities that may be capped out for you at a far lower circle. When Supernatural ranks come into play, you'll be grandfathered up to your level. This may leave you actually weaker with your abilities than you are now.
With that in mind, I don't consider this a huge loss because its only temporary and there's a light side to it for those who are less than 150. But I can understand the frustration for others who trained lots of weapon skills on top of their survivals, most of which have been combined.
I know it sounds bad considering the TDP angle, but I'm pretty sure it will be addressed when 3.0 is finalized and they have time to come back and put it together without some poor band-aid type patching.
I also think that in the beginning only 150th circle thieves will really have the full power of Khris when this grandfathering goes in. Keep in mind that right now, Khri aren't reliant on skill, so you have abilities that may be capped out for you at a far lower circle. When Supernatural ranks come into play, you'll be grandfathered up to your level. This may leave you actually weaker with your abilities than you are now.
With that in mind, I don't consider this a huge loss because its only temporary and there's a light side to it for those who are less than 150. But I can understand the frustration for others who trained lots of weapon skills on top of their survivals, most of which have been combined.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: TDP gain/loss for Thieves
11/28/2012 05:07 PM CST
>>>>As that all sinks in, and I see 3.0 flying by leaving Thieves in the dust, very disappointed.
The TDPs side of things sucks (and you can respec if you want to get rid of the negative number), and so does the fact that you won't be able to completely murder at-level people with backstab, but beyond that you're not losing anything...
I totally empathize with the fact that you guys don't have any big presents coming for you this release. The main reason for this is that you've already got a good, comprehensive, balanced ability set that's well-written, and you also have the ambushes (which we'll fix before release, don't worry) which aren't half bad either.
There are some good opportunities that open up for you guys with DR3, but I know there's not a lot right now. Just sit tight and remember that you've gotten the most recent comprehensive overhaul of any guild and that you're in pretty good shape as it stands.
And, as Ventuul said, I'd rather not try to throw together something last-minute to make your life easier - Nobody wins there.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
The TDPs side of things sucks (and you can respec if you want to get rid of the negative number), and so does the fact that you won't be able to completely murder at-level people with backstab, but beyond that you're not losing anything...
I totally empathize with the fact that you guys don't have any big presents coming for you this release. The main reason for this is that you've already got a good, comprehensive, balanced ability set that's well-written, and you also have the ambushes (which we'll fix before release, don't worry) which aren't half bad either.
There are some good opportunities that open up for you guys with DR3, but I know there's not a lot right now. Just sit tight and remember that you've gotten the most recent comprehensive overhaul of any guild and that you're in pretty good shape as it stands.
And, as Ventuul said, I'd rather not try to throw together something last-minute to make your life easier - Nobody wins there.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
